Blast in Pune

[hembo]

It is another point of view, very silently expressed under the barrage of ISI Did it, ISI did it, zombie Mantra you guys going on in India.

When you said YOU GUYS, does it include me too. Can you please point to a any one of my post in last MONTH where I have blamed ISI, silently or openly Asim? Thanks for encouraging generalization.

 

[mjnaushad]

Clear Link Between ISI And Terrorist Groups (Full text of British foreign secretary's statement in the House of Commons on June 10, 2002.)

First its 2002
2nd It was time when NATO and US needed Pakistan and as there were difficulties they wanted to put pressure on Pakistan.
3rd If you may allow than there are many examples of many countries Like US and India also helping terrorist in the past.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

Kashmir is not India.

Kashmir is very much India, if Pakistan think's otherwise, it should use force on the army and not on civilians.

Although we don't support any non-governmental party conducting any violence in Kashmir from Pakistan (they may conduct attacks against the IA from Kashmir though) the government and the army has the people's mandate to take Kashmir by force if possible.

Yes, that is why you let JuD hold anti-India rally right next to the Punjab assembly. You can choose to ignore such congregations conveniently as you choose to deny 15 years of cross-border terrorism.

 

[mjnaushad]

Kashmir is very much India, if Pakistan think's otherwise, it should use force on the army and not on civilians.



Yes, that is why you let JuD hold anti-India rally right next to the Punjab assembly. You can choose to ignore such congregations conveniently as you choose to deny 15 years of cross-border terrorism.

Do you remember the words


Pakistan key 40 tukrey karoon ga.

Pakistan ko khakis tan banaoon ga.


If you can let that to be said for Pakistan then why cant we let a rally to give such comments on disputed territory.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

First its 2002
2nd It was time when NATO and US needed Pakistan and as there were difficulties they wanted to put pressure on Pakistan.

No excuses please. Their conviction is still the same:

LeT behind Mumbai attacks: Gordon Brown

3rd If you may allow than there are many examples of many countries Like US and India also helping terrorist in the past.

That would derail the thread.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

If you can let that to be said for Pakistan then why cant we let a rally to give such comments on disputed territory.

Surely, you can, my point was that it is not so hidden that Pakistan sponsors terrorism in India. You do not need to deny what is obvious, do you?

 

[mjnaushad]

No excuses please. Their conviction is still the same:

LeT behind Mumbai attacks: Gordon Brown



That would derail the thread.

Where he says in his this statement that Let is ISI or ISI is LeT. Any relation.

And 2nd the thread is already derailed incase you cant see the heading.

 

[mjnaushad]

Surely, you can, my point was that it is not so hidden that Pakistan sponsors terrorism in India. You do not need to deny what is obvious, do you?

IF statements of JuD is so much as evidence for you then for me this is enough too.

Watch from 2:20

 

[TechLahore]

Surely, you can, my point was that it is not so hidden that Pakistan sponsors terrorism in India. You do not need to deny what is obvious, do you?

You say Pakistan sponsors terrorism in India, we say India has been responsible for thousands of civilian deaths in Pakistan by sponsoring terrorism in our country, arming the TTP and Baluch insurgents and using consulates in Afghanistan as terror hubs.

You say Kashmir is in India, we say it is part of Pakistan.

And so it goes on. What's the point of this discussion?

If India believes Pakistan is responsible for these incidents, then India should declare war against Pakistan. After all, the Indian military establishment has had years now to work on Cold Start and get their ducks in a row on this strategy. The whole purpose of this strategy was to respond swiftly to terrorism they believe emanated from Pakistan. So after so many years of preparation and discussion and numerous threats from multiple quarters, if the people who matter in the Indian politico-military establishment truly know and believe Pakistan to be responsible, then execute Cold Start and let's get it over and done with.

On the other hand, if the Indian military and government don't launch a military offensive, then you have to consider three things in a cool fashion.

First, there is a possibility that the entire Indian government and military leadership is composed of traitors who have sold themselves to the ISI and are just sitting idly by as Pakistan stages sponsored attacks on Indian soil.

Or, second, that while there is a lot of public posturing and right wing fanatics such as the BJP are using this recent attack as a means to assault the Congress government, those "in the know" do understand that Pakistan has nothing to do with this incident.

And lastly, the third possibility is that the government wants to take action, it knows Pakistan to be responsible but it is impotent because Cold Start doesn't work, or the often ballyhooed military superiority doesn't really exist etc. etc.

I think trying to understand why the Indian government acts in a certain way is more interesting and useful than to get into these "Kashmir is mine - NO! It's mine" type 'discussions'.

 

[xman]

You say Pakistan sponsors terrorism in India, we say India has been responsible for thousands of civilian deaths in Pakistan by sponsoring terrorism in our country, arming the TTP and Baluch insurgents and using consulates in Afghanistan as terror hubs.

You say Kashmir is in India, we say it is part of Pakistan.

And so it goes on. What's the point of this discussion?

If India believes Pakistan is responsible for these incidents, then India should declare war against Pakistan. After all, the Indian military establishment has had years now to work on Cold Start and get their ducks in a row on this strategy. The whole purpose of this strategy was to respond swiftly to terrorism they believe emanated from Pakistan. So after so many years of preparation and discussion and numerous threats from multiple quarters, if the people who matter in the Indian politico-military establishment truly know and believe Pakistan to be responsible, then execute Cold Start and let's get it over and done with.

On the other hand, if the Indian military and government don't launch a military offensive, then you have to consider three things in a cool fashion.

First, there is a possibility that the entire Indian government and military leadership is composed of traitors who have sold themselves to the ISI and are just sitting idly by as Pakistan stages sponsored attacks on Indian soil.

Or, second, that while there is a lot of public posturing and right wing fanatics such as the BJP are using this recent attack as a means to assault the Congress government, but those "in the know" do understand that Pakistan has nothing to do with this incident.

And lastly, the third possibility is that the government wants to take action, it knows Pakistan to be responsible but it is impotent because Cold Start doesn't work, or the often ballyhooed military superiority doesn't really exist etc. etc.

I think trying to understand why the Indian government acts in a certain way is more interesting and useful than to get into these "Kashmir is mine - NO! It's mine" type 'discussions'.

Then why your government is unable to gather proofs and put it On the table. Instead groups like LeT and JuD, etc.. claim boldly for terror attacks in India. And that doesn't require proof

 

[Parashuram1]

My sincerest condolences to the families of the deceased. May the culprit agency/organization behind this heinous attack be punished appropriately. The world stands in solidarity with India on this occasion.

Very tragic news indeed. Now foreigners are being targeted in India as well. Makes me wonder who is behind this.

 

[TechLahore]

Then why your government is unable to gather proofs and put it On the table. Instead groups like LeT and JuD, etc.. claim boldly for terror attacks in India. And that doesn't require proof

There is plenty of proof; photographic (Baluch insurgent commander meeting with Indian diplomats/officials in Kabul), confessions of captured operatives, arrest of RAW agents in Lahore, radio and weapon sources etc. etc. But we don't cry about these things and raise a hullabaloo. Better to get even than to get mad. Which is why you see us killing foreign funded terrorists rather than conducting press conferences.

We don't believe your evidence and you don't believe ours. It's back to the same point. If you are convinced Pakistan is responsible and you have even gone to the extent of publicly declaring the Cold Start doctrine and its purpose, then, by all means, please declare war.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

You say Pakistan sponsors terrorism in India, we say India has been responsible for thousands of civilian deaths in Pakistan by sponsoring terrorism in our country, arming the TTP and Baluch insurgents and using consulates in Afghanistan as terror hubs.

There is a difference here. What we say is resounded by the world community, while you stand alone in your claim. There is another important difference. India has no intention to harm Pakistan nor any intention to take back P o K by force, which it still claims to be an integral part (please do not confuse the intentions of some hooligans with that of India). Now that may sound odd to some Pakistanis, but there are valid reasons for that. Firstly, it is against India's own interest to destabilize Pakistan. It wants a nation wherein democracy prevails in all strength so that any kind of negotiations on all outstanding issues can be talked through. Secondly, India is focused on issues it should focus on and not on Kashmir.

Now it is for you to decide, keeping these points in mind, what is obvious and the intentions of both sides.

You say Kashmir is in India, we say it is part of Pakistan.

Since it was acceded to India, it is legally the part of India. If some people do not find it appropriate they can leave for some other nation. They have every freedom to decide what they want for themselves, however, how is it justified to want what is not theirs? Kashmir belongs to the whole of India and not just to the Kashmiris.

If India believes Pakistan is responsible for these incidents, then India should declare war against Pakistan.

When the time is ripe for that, it will happen. But as ordinary citizens we should understand the implications of war. I would never advocate war unless there is no other option left. And Pakistan's unjustified pursuit for Kashmir are taking us near to that day. Now if citizens of Pakistan see justice in this pursuit, by all means, they should follow their conviction. But I request that you do some considerable introspection because you will end up losing more than you have now.

On the other hand, if the Indian military and government don't launch a military offensive, then you have to consider three things in a cool fashion.

First, there is a possibility that the entire Indian government and military leadership is composed of traitors who have sold themselves to the ISI and are just sitting idly by as Pakistan stages sponsored attacks on Indian soil.

Or, second, that while there is a lot of public posturing and right wing fanatics such as the BJP are using this recent attack as a means to assault the Congress government, but those "in the know" do understand that Pakistan has nothing to do with this incident.

And lastly, the third possibility is that the government wants to take action, it knows Pakistan to be responsible but it is impotent because Cold Start doesn't work, or the often ballyhooed military superiority doesn't really exist etc. etc.

None of the three are true. The truth is very simple - Pakistan's involvement is undeniable but war is the last option. India seeks other ways, while it can, to avoid war and yet curb terrorism.

I think trying to understand why the Indian government acts in a certain way is more interesting and useful than to get into these "Kashmir is mine - NO! It's mine" type 'discussions'.

I agree but please leave some scope for consideration from the other side's point of view as well. And also weigh your options and the justifications of your pursuit for which this whole game is being played.

P.S. Thank you for a calm post, it makes discussion easier.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It's propaganda if its institutionalised through the government, as is the case in Pakistan.

For example, you think Pakistan won in 1965. Which it didn't. If the media is reporting false things. Thats a blow to the credibility of private businesses. If your government reports false things, your government is no longer credible.

You mean like the false propaganda taught to Indians that India won all three wars and Pakistan started all three wars?

Very tragic news indeed. Now foreigners are being targeted in India as well. Makes me wonder who is behind this.

I am not sure how you could argue foreigners were targeted - at the moment this seems a blast at a cafe that also ended up killing tourists.

 

[fanboi]

You mean like the false propaganda taught to Indians that India won all three wars and Pakistan started all three wars?

Umm, thats not propaganda, that's fact? Are you seriously denying that?

Very tragic news indeed. Now foreigners are being targeted in India as well. Makes me wonder who is behind this.

It's a cafe frequented by foreigners. It makes bigger headlines if foreigners die.