Bikini or headscarf -- which offers more freedom?

[fallstuff]

I'm pissed off because a small innocent female child has to mentally grasp the concept that her body is an object of desire for men and she has to worry about covering her body instead of going to school and playing hopscotch. You see there is a certain "objectification" of women, men turning womens bodies into objects. I don't understand Asim. Now you are just twisting my words and implying I would prefer nude people in my face. That is also wrong and stereotyping unnecessarily, it happens when your side of the argument is weak I presume.

You need to get some serious help. You are seeing things when there aren't any.

 

[Awesome]

I'm pissed off because a small innocent female child has to mentally grasp the concept that her body is an object of desire for men and she has to worry about covering her body instead of going to school and playing hopscotch. You see there is a certain "objectification" of women, men turning womens bodies into objects. I don't understand Asim. Now you are just twisting my words and implying I would prefer nude people in my face. That is also wrong and stereotyping unnecessarily, it happens when your side of the argument is weak I presume.

Actually if I'm correct, the "requirement" doesn't kick in till the girl hits puberty. The fact that the kid is opting to use the headscarf is more or less indicative (as suggested by her gasping mother) that she's inclined towards her Islamic heritage, as far as appearances are concerned.

C'mon, every little girl plays dress up and wants to look a particular way. Just because a little girl doesn't aspire to look like Barbie shouldn't get you guys "pissed" off.

I'm just using your own examples. You're trying to make an argument against freewill and you'll find it hard to convince people by playing up your xenophobia. I prefer moderation in all things and prefer granting everyone their freewill. Just because a girl doesn't wear a hijab doesn't make her a non-Muslim either. But if a girl wants to wear it and we force it off her, that makes us a jerk.

 

[somya]

I'm pissed off because a small innocent female child has to mentally grasp the concept that her body is an object of desire for men and she has to worry about covering her body instead of going to school and playing hopscotch. You see there is a certain "objectification" of women, men turning womens bodies into objects. I don't understand Asim. Now you are just twisting my words and implying I would prefer nude people in my face. That is also wrong and stereotyping unnecessarily, it happens when your side of the argument is weak I presume.

Very well said... man thinks girls as an object of desire. if girls will cover themselve or hide behind walls and curtains, they will never liberate themself.

 

[vsdoc]

Those are small sized hands and you know it too, Doc.

Even your girls prefer holding the large sized...... hands, of the real He-Men to the West.

Yeah that's why the he-men to the west are the world's leading population searching the Net for ...... hand enhancement.

Talk about urban legends man!

Cheers, Doc

 

[Jade]

Lets move from the caves of Afghanistan to Southern Florida. I have lived there for about 19 years.I have been to swimming pools, Beaches including Miami Beach, and many different clubs including "Liquid". I do not recall seeing a single girl or group of girls of South Asian origin ever in those places. There are tens of thousands of South Asian folks living in Southern Florida including girls living on their own.

Taking the bull by the horn, which is your argument about Taliban, are these girls oppressed that they are afraid to go out and live the life to the fullest ?

It is still almost after 20 years a rare sight to see a Southern Asian origin girl in a low cut jeans with tank top or in a Mini skirt or for that matter any skirt at all. I have seen more Chritian woman wearing ankle long skirts, long sleeve shirts and headscarfs than woman wearing Burqa in the USA.

Bollywood is not the real world.

You Sir do not have any idea what the heck you are talking about.

I never said that bikinis are better than burqas…don’t just assume something which I haven’t said. Neither am I saying that bollywood is real. What I am saying is that let the women determine what is better for her, however, let there be no force.

Please explain how has, according to Taliban, "the face of a woman is a source of corruption for men”. Cannot they see anything asexual in women? How come the face of a woman is a source of corruption for men? Please don’t forget Taliban is a not some fringe group. It has ruled Afghanistan for years; even now it has say in matters in some parts of Afghanistan and Pakistan affecting a large number of women.

 

[anoopsaxena76]

There are two issues here.
1.) Is burqa as a concept derogatory and repressive to women or not? The point is not whether one wears it out of "free will" or not. The point is, men do not have such veils proposed for them.

The idea is that a woman be modestly covered so that men do not lech on her and do not do anything to her that is considered an act of sexual assault. The point is, why the men who are the aggressors do not have something like a lock for their organs which can be opened only by a family member, and that too by only a woman? Why should the potential victim take the precautions as part of a social mandate and why the potential aggressor, in this case men, are let go by doing nothing to keep their organs in captivity?

2.) Free will. What is free will? I am an atheist. But I do not tell my kids not to believe in the concept of God everyday, or for that matter anyday. Whereas my wife asks them to perform pooja everyday. Care to tell who is exercising true free will?

If a child who has not been influenced about burqa, has never been told about it, and is not impressioned that it is the right way to dress oneself, picks up a Burqa, that is true free will. Not when as a parent, one tries to shape up a child's beliefs.

Not related to these kids, but for "most" of the girls following Islam, I wonder if they have ever known what free will truly is. This does not mean, in other religions girls are not forced to do something wrong. They are, but that is not the topic of discussion here.

Regards,
Anoop.

 

[vsdoc]

Some more clarity on what we non-muslim guys generically lump under the term "burqa"

Some categories I do not see:

1) The flowery ones worn by the Bohra community in India.

2) The simple white/black simple headscarf worn by many Indian muslim girls ..... over otherwise completely normal attire.

3) The male burqa

Cheers, Doc

 

[Awesome]

Some more clarity on what we non-muslim guys generically lump under the term "burqa"

Some categories I do not see:

1) The flowery ones worn by the Bohra community in India.

2) The simple white/black simple headscarf worn by many Indian muslim girls ..... over otherwise completely normal attire.

3) The male burqa

Cheers, Doc

Can barely make out anything and again calling the Hijab as the headscarf is technically incorrect. Its a state, not a piece of clothing.

None of the women are smiling... Bichari "oppressed" women.

Other than Burka with Nikaab, the others are usually worn due to convenience/weather conditions.

 

[vsdoc]

None of the women are smiling... Bichari "oppressed" women.

They are probably Pakistani .... or Russian.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Spring Onion]

What I am saying is that let the women determine what is better for her, however, let there be no force.

.

Thats what we are saying. But some nuts are trying to force those women to let their dress drop because these nuts thinks its real liberation.


Again as Asim and i said that let the women decide what we want to wear whether its a skirt, shorts or nothing at all or niqab or burqa its our personal choice.

what men like or desire be it bikni or burqa for us, is not our liberation.


We have no concern what men like thats their head not ours.


They should not impose their liking on us.

 

[Spring Onion]

They are probably Pakistani .... or Russian. c

More probably low cast Indian women or may be majority after all entire India is not bollywood

 

[Awesome]

Again as Asim and i said that let the women decide what we want to wear whether its a skirt, shorts or nothing at all or niqab or burqa its our personal choice

I'm surprised how many MEN are choosing the bare skinned options and saying with a straight face "They just want to liberate the women". Of course they do.

 

[vsdoc]

We have no concern what men like thats their head not ours.

They should not impose their liking on us.

Jana, there is a MULTI-BILLION dollar Fashion and Cosmetics industry worldwide which proves that you and your opinion is a small minority.

Women are VERY concerned about what men like.

The only people "imposing" these likes on to their individual choices are the women themselves.

Cheers, Doc

 

[araz]

Try as I might, I cannot for the life of me find anything "liberating" about the burqa.

Apparently, the muslim women I have known do not either.

I know only one muslim girl who uses the burqa, and that too only as a gesture of respect to her in-laws. The moment she is out of their circle of influence, she removes it and goes about the second half of her life.

It is my opinion that the burqa is regressive and something that is imposed on women to keep them under the control of their men.

Just as the latest fatwa preventing women from working or using their income to help their families.

Economic independence is the pillar on which the independence and emancipation of a woman in our male dominated societies stands.

If anything, the way I see it (and I have seen cases of this first hand), the only emancipation the burqa allows a woman is that of anonymity when she wants to lead a normal life and do the things young girls normally do without the fear of family and friends seeing and recognising her doing so.

I'm really not kidding, but a friend in college used to carry around a burqa (how he got his hands on it is another story!) in the dicky of his scooter for precisely the above reason!

Cheers, Doc

It is simple.In Islam there is a necessity for men as well as women to cover themselves. Allah(SWT) has left it up to us to comply with it or not. It is not upto me or you to dictate what women do, but it is Allahs command.Whether one chooses to follow it or not is up to the person concerned.There is no regresssion in hijab or Burqa, if it is worn with the intention of pleasing Allah.In my own house hold, my wife wears the hijab, as well as one of my teenage daughters.The other one does not at the moment. We certainly talk and my contention has always been that i will not force anyone , including my wife to wear the hijab. My daughter who does not wear the hijab has discussed the issue with me many a times, and while i do not agree with her argument, i respect her decision, and hope that she will one day come around to thinking the way I do. This is my own humble opinion about women conducting their lives.Both my daughters are in full time education and one of them works for a charity as well.My wife does a lot of social work and is free to come and go as she pleases. I know a host of other very respected ladies who work outside but wear the hijab. I fail to see how it ids regressive to wear the hijab, or conduct one self modestly.
Regards
Araz

 

[vsdoc]

More probably low cast Indian women or may be majority after all entire India is not bollywood

Well at least 1.2 billion Indians can see the faces of these so-called low caste Indian women to check out whether they are smiling or not.

Cheers, Doc