Bhutto, India and the 1971 Surrender in Bangladesh

[SamantK]

did you read the allegations and forgot to read the replies???? his biggest crime seems to be PAN EXPORT smuggling

you missed the point didn't you.

The commison did not go into the PAN export business as that was not the mandate
Pg., 17

The allegations regarding his indulgence in the export of
Pan by using or abusing his position in the Eastern Command and as
Zonal Martial Law Administrator also prima facie appear to be wellfounded,
although it was not our function to hold a detailed inquiry into
the matter. It is for the Government to decide whether these matters
should also form the subject of any inquiry or trial which may have to be
ultimately held against this officer.

firstly you can't claim things out of the blue and secondly you didn't answer why is india if it is so moral and has high values not pulling out its 600,000 soldiers from kashmir and not doing DNA testing of 1000s of mass graves???
our soldiers surrendered to save lives but you won't understand that maybe it will take another century for indians to grow up.

By the statment of his own men he has been called a raper, his reputation has been demolished. So, if he said that he did not want the rapes and killings to go on does not mean he is being truthfull.. Your point regarding his statement is moot.

He was a lier and he lied through his teeth, he did want to save lives but only of his men, even that can be debatable,since before the commision he said

"I say
no. I have been doing Martial Law duties. I never stopped anybody
coming to see me. I became very religious during the East Pakistan
trouble. I was not so before. I thought more of death than these
things."

He looks to be a coward, he mostly wanted to save his own life..

The topic is regarding Bangladesh and 1971 war not about Kahsmir, open a sperate thread post your query and then send me a link..

I will answer there

 

[ares]

you missed the point didn't you. firstly you can't claim things out of the blue and secondly you didn't answer why is india if it is so moral and has high values not pulling out its 600,000 soldiers from kashmir and not doing DNA testing of 1000s of mass graves???

our soldiers surrendered to save lives but you won't understand that maybe it will take another century for indians to grow up.

Without getting into militant/terrorist/freedom fighter debate.

As you put it six hundred thousand Indian troops have been deployed in Kashmir for past 24 yrs..how many people have actually died there Sixty - Hundred thousand(depending on the source) ..

Now compare that to 54000 Pakistani deployed in East Pakistan for seven months ..number of casualties range from half a million(international press estimates) to three million (Bangladeshi estimates).

Irrespective of the reasons given, clearly reason for surrender could have been many..but saving Bengali or Indian lives was not one of them.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Indian IB (or newly made RAW) was not capable enough to have conceived and executed all the subversion activities in East Pakistan that brought small amount of Pakistani Army to it's heels.

It was neither IB nor RAW that was responsible.

There was a concerted effort from USSR which provided India all the planning to execute and foment unrest and militancy in East Pakistan.

When USA was stopping all the Military Aid, during every conflict, to Pakistan (for which it was the main supplier) and India (which had multiple suppliers) , USSR was selling arms to India at 'Cut-Price' to build a strategic allaince against USA and China. In both 1965 & 1971 wars Pakistan, at the end, was almost without ammunition to fight any further. That is why, most of the Pakistani arms industry - including the nuclear deterrence - has developed after 1971. This was the first positive lesson of the war - Never Again.

During 1965 war, Ayub Khan secretly visited China and met Chinese Premier Chou En-Lei who offered Pakistan unconditional support but also warned Pakistan to be prepared for a long war and be ready to lose even some major cities like Lahore. Ayub Khan was not ready for a prolonged war, so, he returned empty handed. Chinese could and must have offered their help to Pakistan during the 1971 crisis, but, the political leadership in Pakistan was more interested in saving their control of western half of the country; for which they were more than willing to lose East Pakistan (Udher tum, Idher Hum).

False.

"could and must have" are not historical record.

Same can be said about Military High Command too. After the humiliation of 1971 war, recruiting to commissioned posts from nobility decreased and a new breed of army officer appeared on the scence, belongining to middle classes and having close physical and emontional links with the rest of the population. That is why that same Dr. Mehboob-ul-Haq who had said during Ayub Khan's tenure that the welfare of the masses could get a rest while the capitalists make money was a totally changed man on his second term. During the next army regime - that of Zia-ul-Haq, as minister of planning Dr. Mehboob-ul-Haq brought a positive change to the status of middle classes. Infact, there was an entirely new class of Noveau Riche. We can argue that he got some influence from Military leadership which was more entrenched to the soild. That was the second positive lesson of the War - The welfare of the masses and a change in the mindset of the military leadership.

During 1962 war with China, when India's defences were shattered and Calcutta lay 300 undefended miles to take over, in a desperate attempt, Nehru pleaded to US to send Airforce for help - with Tactical Nukes if possible.

False.

Calcutta was never in danger. The breakthrough in NEFA/Arunachal occurred in the Tawang sector, and descending to the plains would have still left the entire passage from Tezpur to Siliguri, then a thrust down increasingly more militarised and morre armed and replete with ammunition territories, defended by troops fighting in their familiar climate, not in the winter cold of the Himalayan foothills.

Lucklily, China declared a unilateral cease-fire. It is also said that during 1971 war, US threatened to China that if it tried direct involvement in war, then, America will put all of it's weight in India's basket. Considering that Chinese financed Vietnam war was a big humiliation for US, America was restless to get even. If true, this confirms that USA wanted Pakistan to lose it's eastern arm. The mouth piece of US foreign policy - US media - was blatantly anti-Pakistani during the whole crisis. US also wanted Pakistan to change it's focus of attention from eastwards (Indiacentric) to westwards (West Asia centric), where it could be used as a vital ally against the onslaught of communism.

Not just false, but asinine. I have seldom read such bilge.

Indira Gandhi had stated that 'We have sunk the Two Nation Theory' in Indian Ocean; but it successfully floated in the creation of a sovereign 'Muslim Bengal'. Just becasuse they had a shared language, history, customs and culture, East Pakistan did not fuse with 'Hindu Bengal' and become a part of India. It remained as an Independant Muslim state; this was a vindication of Two Nation Theory for the second time. This is the third and final lesson learned from the war of 1971 - The Muslims of sub-continent are a separate nation and no force, no ideology and no (Wannabe) Superpower in the world can change that fact!

A sad piece by a sad new entrant into the ranks of the trolls.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Who ran away from What?
You have been drinking the Hindu coolaid my friend.
India was not a county that Pakistan left.
India was a geographic region that was ruled by Britain and when Britain left, we said we don't want to be a minority in our own country so I decided not to joint the Indian Union.
Hindus are still butt hurt over this because they have fantasies of bringing back ancient Indian civilizations (based on Hinduism/Buddhism of course).

Incorrect again. Some people drone on and on, never realising when they have exposed themselves thoroughly either through ignorance or through misinterpretation.

Don't you even want to sound sensible and intelligent?

 

[Silverblaze]

Jinnah was not Punjabi, a bunch of the first leaders of Pakistan after partition were Bengali, Ayub was not Punjabi, Yahya was not Punjabi, Buhtto was not Punjabi, Benazir and Zardari were not Punjabi. In all of Pakistani history I can only count 2 leaders, Zia and Nawaz, who were Punjabi. So where does this victim complex come from?

Again, this is a useless debate. If you got the impression that non punjabis are angels, I am sorry.

Punjabi elite is economically and militarily the most powerful and highly incompetent and corrupt. that is why you have insurgencies in smaller provinces.And the local politicians of the smaller provinces take complete advantage of this.

Bureaucracy and army is considered mostly punjabi and when they take over, it is effectively thought that Punjab has taken over and nothing else matters.

 

[Sugarcane]

1. Pakistan never had a Punjabi strong man. Zia, an E Punjabi, can be considered a Muhajir.

2. Nawaz Sharif has been the first Punjabi powerful figure.

3. Tikka was the first Punjabi Chief, although people at that claimed Bhutto was the real Chief.

4. Among the infamous 22 families pre-1971, only Saigols were Punjabi. Originally from Khotian (now Saigolabad), they had settled in Calcutta where they flourished in business. Jinnah brought them over.

5. Punjab is the only province without a provincial language. Punjabi / Gurmukhi is a state language in E Punjab, Haryana, HP and Capital Delhi.

6. Punjabis are hard working, disciplined and obedient to authority. They help each other. That is how they have flourished in SA and elsewhere.These are the reasons why other communities envy them. When this envy gets negative 1984 Sikh Genocide happen.

Dude - A Punjabi is Punjabi - despite that majority of immigrant were Punjabis and it was mainly Punjabies who faced the heat & bloodshed of partition, you will not see a Punjabi holding Mohajir victim card, nor we have habit of disowning people. Zia was Punjabi we acknowledge it and and also acknowledge his blunders, we are not like other ethnic groups who simply disown their bad people and also blame their autocracies on Punjabies.

 

[Sugarcane]

Again, this is a useless debate. If you got the impression that non punjabis are angels, I am sorry.

Punjabi elite is economically and militarily the most powerful and highly incompetent and corrupt. that is why you have insurgencies in smaller provinces.And the local politicians of the smaller provinces take complete advantage of this.

Bureaucracy and army is considered mostly punjabi and when they take over, it is effectively thought that Punjab has taken over and nothing else matters.

Why start pointing finger when it's useless?

If incompetent Punjabies are dominating bureaucracy than why the intelligent non-Punjabies don't let their kids & girls get educated and compete with idiot Punjabies? who is stopping them?
Yes - Incompetent Punjabies have destroyed their province they should follow intelligent people of KPK, Baluchistan & Sindh and learn how to run province.
Yes - incompetent Punjabies are in military, the intelligent non-Punjabies should join forces and take over from idiot Punjabies? But hey, why they should leave high paying professions and put their life on risk for this stupid country for merely few thousand rupees, Blood of Punjabi is cheap and is suitable for this Chowkidari job.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Why is this posted in strategic affairs section?

Is it asking too much for people to post in the right section and use the focking search function before posting old crap that's been posted and discussed millions of times already

Damn.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

there you go again with more of your Indian logic. do you think you are the first Indian Muslim on this forum? Most of you guys eventually get banned because you try so hard to impress your Hindu majority that you say silly things that get you banned.
We get it, you hate Pakistan
guess what? We don't care.
We wish you all the best as the worst off minority in a country where the butcher of 2000 Muslims is beloved by the Hindu minority.
As for us, well, we have our own destiny in our hands. We put ourselves in this bad place we are at and we will pull ourselves out.

Again with your silly logic.

He'll get banned for saying the truth? He just stated two facts, diversity is good, and Indian muslims are happy.

You can't swallow that fact, because you know your nation was formed because someone thought that he would be mistreated.

Now Pakistanis here say nonsense like, 2000 muslims were killed, Hindu India couldn't convert Bangladesh, none of which is relevant to the fact that Indian muslims are treated better than Pakistani Hindus.

 

[Rusty]

And is the logic and facts you are pointing out are Pakistani by nature?

You have been long enough on this forum to know that only around 750 Muslism were killed not your imagined number 2000 and also you guys famously do not mention is how many Hindus died, 350.

The worst of minority is a title you guys are ever ready to give. Aapke girewan main to sab kuch itna acha chal raha hai ke aapko unki misal deni chaiye.

Anyways, do what you have to do to your country we do not care for your certifcates neither for your propaganda. At least have the decency to present correct facts and not the imagined ones, otherwise keep at it cause you dont mean a speck worth of salt to us Indians and loose what respect you have..

750?
This is the first time I have heard of this number.
Tell me, does that that number make you feel better?
Does it make it seem like Muslims are better off because "only" 750 were butchered?

Do what you have to, to convince yourself that Indian Muslims are not under Hindu thumbs.

 

[EzioAltaïr]

750?
This is the first time I have heard of this number.
Tell me, does that that number make you feel better?
Does it make it seem like Muslims are better off because "only" 750 were butchered?

Certainly not. What happened was wrong. That hardly makes your lie any more true does it?

Do what you have to, to convince yourself that Indian Muslims are not under Hindu thumbs.

We don't need to do so. Kalam's presidency is proof emough of that.

 

[illusion8]

750?
This is the first time I have heard of this number.
Tell me, does that that number make you feel better?
Does it make it seem like Muslims are better off because "only" 750 were butchered?

Do what you have to, to convince yourself that Indian Muslims are not under Hindu thumbs.

What according to you is the freedom or the liberty that Indian Muslims do not enjoy and in what way are they restricted by Indian Hindus? Give me just couple of examples - leave out Kashmir and any random event.

 

[Rusty]

Incorrect again. Some people drone on and on, never realising when they have exposed themselves thoroughly either through ignorance or through misinterpretation.

Don't you even want to sound sensible and intelligent?

Oh please, Joe Shearer Sahib, tell us Pakistanis why we didn't join the Indian union and instead made our own country.
Also it would be nice if your story has unicorns and rainbows to make it more interesting.

Again, this is a useless debate. If you got the impression that non punjabis are angels, I am sorry.

Punjabi elite is economically and militarily the most powerful and highly incompetent and corrupt. that is why you have insurgencies in smaller provinces.And the local politicians of the smaller provinces take complete advantage of this.

Bureaucracy and army is considered mostly punjabi and when they take over, it is effectively thought that Punjab has taken over and nothing else matters.

Tell me, which punjabis forced Muhajirs to vote for terrorist MQM party?
Which Punjabis forced Pushtoons to vote for incompetent ANP?
Which Punjabis forced Sindis to vote for corrupt to the bone PPP?

You people vote for your own poison and then cry and blame Punjabies for it.
Man up and take responsibility for your own actions an stop acting like a victim all the time.

 

[somebozo]

Again, this is a useless debate. If you got the impression that non punjabis are angels, I am sorry.

Punjabi elite is economically and militarily the most powerful and highly incompetent and corrupt. that is why you have insurgencies in smaller provinces.And the local politicians of the smaller provinces take complete advantage of this.

Bureaucracy and army is considered mostly punjabi and when they take over, it is effectively thought that Punjab has taken over and nothing else matters.

54% of country land mass which is no-go for all Pakistani citizen is not controlled by Punjabi's.
Fedualism is at the core of all Pakistani problems.

Tell me, which punjabis forced Muhajirs to vote for terrorist MQM party?
Which Punjabis forced Pushtoons to vote for incompetent ANP?
Which Punjabis forced Sindis to vote for corrupt to the bone PPP?

You people vote for your own poison and then cry and blame Punjabies for it.
Man up and take responsibility for your own actions an stop acting like a victim all the time.

Well said - and no I am not Punjabi.

 

[Rusty]

What according to you is the freedom or the liberty that Indian Muslims do not enjoy and in what way are they restricted by Indian Hindus? Give me just couple of examples - leave out Kashmir and any random event.

are you seriously going to deny that Muslims are the worst off minority in India, despite being the largest minority?
If you are that delusional then I can't help you. Even your fellow Indians on this very forum admit it, maybe you should talk to them first.