Betrayed, Arabized

[Developereo]

islam is a fundamentally arab proposition

Just as an aside, there is a parallel in Christian history.

During the Protestant Reformation, various churches in Europe started saying mass in local (vernacular) languages instead of Latin since it was felt that Latin reminded people of Rome and, indirectly, Catholicism. Ironically, even Catholics stopped using Latin and recent Popes have been trying hard to reinstate Latin mass as a way to create Catholic unity across the globe. Some people view this use of Latin as a power-play by the Pope.

Anyway, back to the regular discussion...

 

[SQ8]

Santro

I think we have to begin with evaluating the proposition, is arabization good or bad, right or wrong? You have said it is "real"
now, of course we have to evaluate it


What I think is going on with you is the concern that in evaluating arabization we have concluded that it is a net negative and that since you are persuaded that islam is a fundamentally arab proposition, that such a negative judgement carries over to Islam itself - is that a fair summary of your concern?

A little off muse...
Im persuaded that the usage of Arabic in Islam is not a fundamentally arab proposition.
Therefore we must treat the subject of where Arabic in its use in Pakistan is cultural influence.. and where it is not with extreme caution.

 

[muse]

Develepero


Excellent analogy.

 

[muse]

Santro

An arab proposition is not the same as an arabic propositon - you are you being so slippery? For the third time, express yourself plainly.

Islam as an arab proposition suggests that Islam's context and it's relevance is best understood in an arab idiom and culture - Is this your concern? Are you concerned that in saying that arabization is a negative, that we may also conclude that Islam is a negative?

 

[foxbat]

human and monkey genes arent that different...genetic mutation can downgrade humans into chimps..
thats one major flaw in darwinian theory which ignores this fact....
its not humans who decended from monkeys...its the otherway round.
beat that.

Mutation is not always unwanted or degrading. Some mutations actually are progressive.. which Darwin refers to as evolution

 

[Safriz]

Just as an aside, there is a parallel in Christian history.

During the Protestant Reformation, various churches in Europe started saying mass in local (vernacular) languages instead of Latin since it was felt that Latin reminded people of Rome and, indirectly, Catholicism. Ironically, even Catholics stopped using Latin and recent Popes have been trying hard to reinstate Latin mass as a way to create Catholic unity across the globe. Some people view this use of Latin as a power-play by the Pope.

Anyway, back to the regular discussion...

yup and no wonder there are 20 odd bibles and counting

 

[Developereo]

Develepero


Excellent analogy.

It does raise an interesting question: to what extent do we follow the Christian/European experience?

Do we ditch Arabic as a 'special' language? I suspect most Muslims would say no.

So we keep Arabic as a second/third language.

Fine, then where do we draw the line? At what point do we say 'this much Arabic culture and no more'? Since we don't have a central authority as such, who makes the decision?

yup and no wonder there are 20 odd bibles and counting

True. So we can learn from the Christian experience and decide if we want to go the same way.

 

[Safriz]

Mutation is not always unwanted or degrading. Some mutations actually are progressive.. which Darwin refers to as evolution

a genetic mutation is never guaranteed to be progressive....its just a random anamoly according to science...
darwin fails to explain why a genetic mutation called evolution is always progressive.

 

[longbrained]

Arabic language and Islamic identity is not a bad thing at all. The problem is when we want to copy cat the "culture" of today's Arabs and the way they interpret Islam. Every one know that today's Arabs are identity-less, western installed and protected societies which have little resemblance to Pakistani society. The temporary and recent riches has made Arabs forget about themselves and indulge in worldly affair enjoying sex and play. Pakistan can not afford to be that at all. If anything Pakistan has to go back to its glorious roots which are firmly set in central Asian, Iranian and pre-colonial muslim rule.

The process of Arabization with all its hypocrisy has caused havoc in Pakistan resulting in almost a civil war like situation. Pakistan has be a muslim nation following Islam not Arabs. Every one knows Arabs want enjoyment for themselves and export their hypocritical Jihad to Pakistan on the order of their white masters. This is all a plan to weaken Pakistan and stop it from reaching its goals. If Pakistan had kept with its plans of 1970's and not got involved in the Arab stuff and wars and stupid ideological issues of Arabs today Pakistan would be ahead of Turkey. Alas, our people think Arab means Islam.

 

[VCheng]

a genetic mutation is never guaranteed to be progressive....its just a random anamoly according to science...
darwin fails to explain why a genetic mutation called evolution is always progressive.

Most mutations are known to be harmful and result in extinction of the branch so affected. Only a small minority of mutations are progressive.

 

[muse]

It does raise an interesting question: to what extent do we follow the Christian/European experience?

Do we ditch Arabic as a 'special' language? I suspect most Muslims would say no.

So we keep Arabic as a second/third language.

Fine, then where do we draw the line? At what point do we say 'this much Arabic culture and no more'? Since we don't have a central authority as such, who makes the decision?[/QUOTE]

Why do we need a central authority to make free decisions?? Society will make it's decisions and this will be a zig zag process - and are we following the example of Europeans? For instance is wanting to "OWN" our Islam, is that following Europeans? If it is, is it a bad thing??

Once again, "where do we draw the line" - who knows, let the discussion and strength of argument decide that

 

[Ahmad]

The problem is when we want to copy cat the "culture" of today's Arabs and the way they interpret Islam.

That is the problem, everybody have different interpretation and calls each other wrong.

 

[muse]

That is the problem, everybody have different interpretation and calls each other wrong.

Why is that bad? after all, are there not as many ways to get to get God as there are adherents? Or is it better that someone tells us how things will have to be??

 

[SQ8]

Santro

An arab proposition is not the same as an arabic propositon - you are you being so slippery? For the third time, express yourself plainly.

Islam as an arab proposition suggests that Islam's context and it's relevance is best understood in an arab idiom and culture - Is this your concern? Are you concerned that in saying that arabization is a negative, that we may also conclude that Islam is a negative?

Perhaps developero's post better explains what I intend to convey.

What I am saying.. and what you are taking only in black and white..
IS what is Arabization.. and what is Islam.
yes Islam is best understood by its book.. which is the Quran. which is written in Arabic.. and uses a lot of idioms of the Arabic spoken at the time. So in our quest to define Arabization.. do we consider the Quran as part of this Arabization influence.
I am hardly being slippery.. you need to stop looking in black and white on the arabization issue.

 

[Safriz]

Most mutations are known to be harmful and result in extinction of the branch so affected. Only a small minority of mutations are progressive.

yup.....so is it plausible thatva certain genetic mutation or disease had changed a group of people into chimps? degenerative mutation?