Best way to implement Sharia in Pakistan ???

[M. Sarmad]

The hadith you quote above proves the validity of Hadith Shareef and science, and their existence and proves the prohibition of false ahadith attributed to the Prophet salat wa salam alaih [ whose authentication is part of hadith science ]
There goes your "research" down the drain.
So, this hadith shareef contradicts your own assertions. Job well done.

Maulvi Sahib did you miss the "writing down" part ??? The so called "Sahih Hadith Collections" are a direct violation of the orders given by prophet (pbuh) ... Now read my post again and try to understand what is being said ...

Refuting The Argument From Hadith In Which The Prophet Says "Do Not Write Down Anything From Me Except Qur'an"

So here is your refutation :

The two may be reconciled by noting that the prohibition applied only to the time when the Qur'aan was being revealed, lest it be confused with something else, and that permission was given at other times; or that the prohibition applied only to writing down things other than Qur'aan with the Qur'aan on one thing, and that permission was given to write them separately; of that the prohibition came first and the permission abrogated that, when there was no longer any fear of confusion. This is most likely to be the case.

This is the best defense that the supporters of Hadith can come up with .... "Most likely.." doesn`t prove anything my friend . And the most famous explanation (given by Imam Nawawi) , which has been repeated by Mullahs countless times is LAME .... He says that Hadith writing was prohibited initially only and allowed later ... What he seems to forget is that this Hadith has been transmitted by Abu Saeed Khadri r.a , who was an Ansari and who was not allowed to participate in Ghazva e Uhd as he was too young at that time !!!! Does that ring some bells now ?? So This Hadith is essentially from the last time of Prophet (pbuh) in Medina ..... Permission was granted on special occasions only ... And read this Hadith (from the last time of prophet pbuh) carefully , he has ordered to erase everything which had been previously written down (with or without permission)

And I searched and didn't find Ibn e zuhri saying he was forced to do so. Would you kindly share link where you read it

Al-Zuhri himself is reported to have said: ‘We disapproved of recording knowledge [meaning hadith] until these rulers forced us to do so. After that we saw no reason to forbid Muslims to do so.’” (Ibn Sa’d, Tabaqat, II, ii, p. 135)

 

[JonAsad]

Abu Sa'id Khudri reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do not take down anything from me, and he who took down anything from me except the Quran, he should erase that and narrate(orally) from me, for there is no harm in it and he who attributed any falsehood to me-and Hammam said: I think he also said:" deliberately" -he should in fact find his abode in the Hell-Fire (Sahih Muslim, Book 042, Chapter 17, Number 7147).

Bro you are using hadiths from book of hadiths to disqualify authenticity of other hadiths from the book of hadiths-
What sorcery is this?-

 

[ephone]

"without being forced"

That is the gist of it.

If you believe what you have is so good, why would you force others to accept it?

How about follow it in your life the way you want it by yourself without being forced to oblige by it and let others do the same?

 

[M. Sarmad]

Ibn e Shihab Zuhri was the collector of sirah not hadith...

here is what two of the "biggest" authorities on the subject have to say on this :

Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri was the first one to compile Ahadees [fath ul bari by ibne hajar]

Imam Malik (d. 179) said, "The first one to utilise the isnad was Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri"[Ibne abi Hatim Al Razi, aljarrah wa altadeel p.20 vol 1]

Mohammad Ibn Ishaq , the most famous historian was a student of Ibn e Shihab Zuhri . His biography of the Prophet, called "Sirah Rasul Allah", is still the accredited authority on the subject in the shape that was given to it by Ibn Hisham, and is known as "al-Sirah of Ibn Hisham". (the first book on Sirah)

And here is what Shibli Naumani says :

Ibne Shihab al-Zuhri was the first historian who wrote the history of Islam under the direct order and fund of Abdul Malik. He also wrote Hadith collection. The works of al-Zuhri was one of the main source for al-Bukhari. al-Zuhri was attached to the royal family of Abdul Malik, and was the tutor of his sons.
(al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah," by Shibli part I, pp.13-17)

 

[Multani]

I know but aren't Pakistanis all ready following Shariah in that sense? Many Pakistani follow the Shariah so what is the need for it to be politicised?

My problem is who will interpret the Shariah law? Sunni Muslims which are the majority in Pakistan? but then you also have a large Shia minority, they will never accept many aspects of Shariat interpreted by Sunni alims. The you have the minorities which will end up suffering because of wrong and extremists interpretations of Shariah law by some Sunni clerics.

There is no need for it to be politicized, this is all a hue made up here by extremists on both sides who dont really understand to various degrees what is needed in Pakistan. Look at the ground realities. Pakistan is a religious place and Pakistan is a pluralistic society. All groups want something. So, we have to appeal to all the groups even the agnostics in this thread, seculars, ultra-nationalists, hadith deniers, Imam Mahdi AS deniers, Javed Ghamdi followers etc. However, in the Ahmadiyya Jamaat, all politics is delimited by Shariat rules.

And like you pointed out, wrong interpretations are just that, wrong, and they are not accepted by any sane person in Pakistan. PDF is an example. No one accepts wrong interpretations. Minorities are human beings and they have human rights in Islam.

This is a decision that all Pakistanis have to work together to satisfy the needs of any group in Pakistan for a united country.

Another thing, islamic jurisprudence differences between sunni and shia are well known and respected.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Bro you are using hadiths from book of hadiths to disqualify authenticity of other hadiths from the book of hadiths-
What sorcery is this?-

That is for those who say "Hadith collections are perfect" .....

For me Quran is enough ..... God told the believers that His book, the Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed, see 6:19, 6:38, 6:114, & 12:111. God reminded them that He does not run out of words, and if He so willed He could have given us more than one Quran , if He would have deemed it necessary, see 18:109 and 31:27

[Quran 77:50] Which HADITH other than this (Quran )do they uphold?

 

[Sinnerman108]

Only Pro- Sharia members may participate in this discussion.
We are not discussing the practicability of Sharia so kindly refrain from going off-topic.

I think that there are two different ways to implement Sharia in Pakistan. which one do you think is appropriate and provide reasons.

1. By legislation
2. By revolution

@Hazzy997 @Zarvan @Indos @Abu Nasar @Arabian Legend @Kaan @al-Hasani

Sharia is legislation or at least legislative guide lines.

Thus it can not be enforced; or implemented via an external process.

When we the Muslims will become Muslims as individuals society and society's norms be those moral or other wise will become Muslims i.e Shariah.

Our problem is that we want to see the state as Muslims, no matter we the individuals are Muslims or not.

 

[FunkyGen]

Disclaimer-!!!!

 

[acid rain]

they have nothing to do with islam and muslims, and are fringe groups

If you want to meet scholars of Islam who profess true Sufism and Shariat, then you are welcome to meet within india itself, people like Maulana Sayyid Ashraf Kichauchawi of Uttar Pradesh.

Vast majority of the Muslims follow him and others like him in india.

my problem is not islam, my problem is what comes packaged under islam. When I see tight security manning and screening every airport, station, hospitals, hotels or any other installations all around and in India, the only thing that comes to mind is who are they protecting these places from and who are they trying to prevent from entering these places?

Whom do we think are the biggest dangers for people, whom do we think are only inclined to kill civilians mindlessly as a singular goal?

and, of course - there are a few exceptions who are mild, but we have had a caustic experience of these followers first hand which the world is getting a taste of now.

Millions of Indians have died by their hands, in the past as well as after independence. They still hold dreams of killing millions more under black flags, under jihads, under thousand year war and under gazwa's - which incidentally they claim has written by their god. A shiriah run India, a shariah run world answering to a calipha.

So, pardon me if I dont take some scholar who professes a milder version (under duress because he is in a minority) of what is in the end aimed at killing millions of my fellow brothers and sisters. I can understand his predicament - his call to duty to try and convert as many as possible by professing something on the lines which is far from the truth about his faith, the chaps that follow are made ready for a purpose which everybody knows is the ultimate destruction of the way of life that we lead. A fast breeding sleeper cell in millions.

As for the topic, good luck in trying to find a handful of upright folks to run your millions.

@FaujHistorian.

 

[Sinnerman108]

@mods

why is this discussion being allowed ?

Is this a defense forum, or process guide lines for Al Qaeeda and Taliban ?

Why can't the OP join Taliban, and discuss with them his views ?

 

[Dubious]

"The first one to utilise the isnad

Isnad means support...

Mohammad Ibn Ishaq

is known as "al-Sirah of Ibn Hisham". (the first book on Sirah)

His full name is Abu Bakr Muhammad Ibn Muslim Ibn ‘Abdullah Ibn Shihab Zuhri (d:124 AH). While he has been generally regarded as a reliable personality by the scholars of ‘Ilmu’l-Rijal, evidence is found to the contrary as well. In fact, this evidence coupled with the fact that he is inevitably found in the chain of narrators of many Ahadith which disparage the status of the Qur’an, that of the first two caliphs as well as that of A’ishah (rta), the beloved wife of the Prophet (sws) cast dense clouds of doubt on his personality.

This contrary evidence shows that Zuhri is guilty of the following:

1. Idraj
2. Tadlis
3. Irsal

1. Idraj: In the text of a Hadith, this means the insertion of something in it that does not belong to it without giving any indication of this insertion. (Mahmud Tahhan, Taysir Mustalih al-Hadith, [Karachi: Qadimi Kutub Khanah], p. 102)

Idraj is prohibited by all the authorities:

Idraj deliberately done by a narrator is totally prohibited in all its types. There is a consensus among the scholars of Fiqh, Hadith and Usul, besides others on this because it is camouflage and deceit and an attribution of something to someone who never said it. Ibn Sam‘ani and others besides him say: ‘He who deliberately does Idraj becomes unreliable, and a person who changes a passage in any way is a liar’. (Ahmad Muhammad Shakir, Al-Ba‘is al-Hathith Sharah Ikhtisaru’l- ‘Ulum al-Hadith (Ibn Kathir) 3rd ed., [Cairo: Daru’l-Turath, 1979], p. 64)

It is known that Zuhri was a Mudrij (person who does Idraj):

Zuhri used to explain various Ahadith a lot and many a time he would not mention the particle [of speech] from which would be known whether the words were from the Prophet (sws) or from Zuhri. So some of his contemporaries would always ask him to separate his words from those of the Prophet (sws). (Sakhawi, Fathu’l-Mughis, vol. 1, [Beirut: Daru’l Kutub al-‘Ilmiyyah, 1996], p. 267-8)


Rabi‘ah would say to Ibn Shihab: My situation is totally different from you. Whatever I say, I say it from my own self and you say it on the authority of the Prophet (sws) and so you must be careful, and it is not befitting for a person to waste himself [like this]. (Bukhari, Tacrikhu’l-Kabir, vol. 3, [Beirut: Daru’l-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyyah], pp. 286-7)

Ibn Rajab records the following opinion of Imam Bukhari:

Zuhri would narrate Ahadith and on most occasions would insert sentences from his own self. Some of these would be Mursal and some of them would be his own. (Ibn Rajab, Fathu’l-Bari, 1st ed., vol. 5, [Jaddah: Dar Ibn al-Jawzi, 1996], p. 286)

Appendix B: The Controversial Personality of Ibn Shihab Zuhri » The Quran Online

 

[FunkyGen]

Oh man what the **** did i just see....

 

[Hyperion]

Best way to implement Sharia in Pakistan, shoot all the Arab wannabes, and we can start from there........

muppet how does wanting freedom for an oppressed muslim brethren equate to being an arab wannabe.

i am proud of being a muslim pakistani punjabi. By going of your notion you're a wannabe turk. If you were to my face i'd get that hot lead and pour it down your throat.

|f i was a wannabe arab what the F does it have to do with you.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Isnad means support...

I know that very well , Zuhri was the first one to utilize the concept of Asnad (as per Imam Malik) and it makes him the founding father of Hadith Science !!

His full name is Abu Bakr Muhammad Ibn Muslim Ibn ‘Abdullah Ibn Shihab Zuhri (d:124 AH). While he has been generally regarded as a reliable personality by the scholars of ‘Ilmu’l-Rijal, evidence is found to the contrary as well. In fact, this evidence coupled with the fact that he is inevitably found in the chain of narrators of many Ahadith which disparage the status of the Qur’an, that of the first two caliphs as well as that of A’ishah (rta), the beloved wife of the Prophet (sws) cast dense clouds of doubt on his personality.
This contrary evidence shows that Zuhri is guilty of the following:
1. Idraj
2. Tadlis
3. Irsal
1. Idraj: In the text of a Hadith, this means the insertion of something in it that does not belong to it without giving any indication of this insertion. (Mahmud Tahhan, Taysir Mustalih al-Hadith, [Karachi: Qadimi Kutub Khanah], p. 102)
Idraj is prohibited by all the authorities:
Idraj deliberately done by a narrator is totally prohibited in all its types. There is a consensus among the scholars of Fiqh, Hadith and Usul, besides others on this because it is camouflage and deceit and an attribution of something to someone who never said it. Ibn Sam‘ani and others besides him say: ‘He who deliberately does Idraj becomes unreliable, and a person who changes a passage in any way is a liar’. (Ahmad Muhammad Shakir, Al-Ba‘is al-Hathith Sharah Ikhtisaru’l- ‘Ulum al-Hadith (Ibn Kathir) 3rd ed., [Cairo: Daru’l-Turath, 1979], p. 64)
It is known that Zuhri was a Mudrij (person who does Idraj):
Zuhri used to explain various Ahadith a lot and many a time he would not mention the particle [of speech] from which would be known whether the words were from the Prophet (sws) or from Zuhri. So some of his contemporaries would always ask him to separate his words from those of the Prophet (sws). (Sakhawi, Fathu’l-Mughis, vol. 1, [Beirut: Daru’l Kutub al-‘Ilmiyyah, 1996], p. 267-8)
Rabi‘ah would say to Ibn Shihab: My situation is totally different from you. Whatever I say, I say it from my own self and you say it on the authority of the Prophet (sws) and so you must be careful, and it is not befitting for a person to waste himself [like this]. (Bukhari, Tacrikhu’l-Kabir, vol. 3, [Beirut: Daru’l-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyyah], pp. 286-7)
Ibn Rajab records the following opinion of Imam Bukhari:
Zuhri would narrate Ahadith and on most occasions would insert sentences from his own self. Some of these would be Mursal and some of them would be his own. (Ibn Rajab, Fathu’l-Bari, 1st ed., vol. 5, [Jaddah: Dar Ibn al-Jawzi, 1996], p. 286)
Appendix B: The Controversial Personality of Ibn Shihab Zuhri » The Quran Online

And that exactly is my point .... When the founding father of Hadith science himself is a highly controversial personality , How can we trust the Hadith Science (Hadith Collections as well) he founded on the direct orders of Ummayad Kings (for political purposes)??

,

 

[FunkyGen]

And that exactly is my point .... When the founding father of Hadith science himself is a highly controversial personality , How can we trust the Hadith Science he founded on the direct orders of Ummayad Kings (for political purposes)??

So, basically you're saying it's based on faulty knowledge and a controversial figure? all Hadith?