Beijing calling the shots to Pakistan over CPEC

[pakpride00090]

I used to share his thread links with friends and frenimies to educate people about their heritage and history but Lord knows whatever happened to that professor. Bring him back!

you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain

 

[Indus Pakistan]

are you going to help this person with Pakistanwali?

Yes sir !

Pakistanwali / Rules Pakistania / Pax Pakistana

I have some great ideas incubating in my mind. I will share and work with you to develop them at a later date. So watch out for this.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So with respect to the whole debt trap aspect - the Chinese aren’t stupid. They obviously understand what Pakistan’s economic constraints are so the question is, what if Pakistan can’t afford to pay back this debt and defaults? It’s China’s money on the line.

One option would be that China takes over some of these CPEC assets, but an already constructed motorway is only going to yield profits if it’s managed properly and the tolls aren’t sky high. The same with power plants.

It’s all very well to say that the Chinese will demand that the GOP pay them back but what if it simply doesn’t have the reserves?

Will the Chinese let Pakistan collapse after all this investment?

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

So with respect to the whole debt trap aspect - the Chinese aren’t stupid. They obviously understand what Pakistan’s economic constraints are so the question is, what if Pakistan can’t afford to pay back this debt and defaults? It’s China’s money on the line.

One option would be that China takes over some of these CPEC assets, but an already constructed motorway is only going to yield profits if it’s managed properly and the tolls aren’t sky high. The same with power plants.

It’s all very well to say that the Chinese will demand that the GOP pay them back but what if it simply doesn’t have the reserves?

Will the Chinese let Pakistan collapse after all this investment?

China is not worried about it's investment... they're not building libraries and water wells... all of these are monetizable projects... once completed they'll generate money themselves for repayment. The only way they can go unpaid is if Pakistan government willfully stops paying and that is unlikely to happen. The only thing Pakistan can ask China is either to hasten the pace of construction and therefore it's monetization or lower the interest rates and slow down construction in order to absorb it ... depends on what suits Pakistan at the end of the day...

Also, the question is how hard(hardly at all) Pakistanis are working to monetize all these assets... Are they luring in foreign and domestic firms at different SEZ's? Are they building accompanying infrastructure? Laying out ground work to build upon it? In short, is there even a game plan once these are built... or will the government let it wither away just like other third world countries when presented an opportunity...

What everyone knows is what China's seeks out of CPEC... is there a blueprint on what Pakistan seeks out of this? Is Pakistan seeking connections with its friendly neighbors just China?

Pakistan has an excellent opportunity to tap into central Asian energy grid for its over 250 million people... it also can provide a harbor for their trade... for this to become a reality... Pakistanis will have put there grandiosity on side and welcome all central Asian people to establish links with its port cities... build offices be able to bring their trucks, perhaps... a set of accommodating laws for movement of goods, services and people. There is so much that can be said ... question is, those who are in charge, are they even contemplating it?

 

[American Pakistani]

This khuldune duffer again...

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Will the Chinese let Pakistan collapse after all this investment?

No. One very interesting thing a learned Chinese member @Cybernetics used to often state. That there are great powers, satellites or pariah's like Iran or North Korea. In the modern global order you can't really progress without 'adopting' yourself to great powers foremost of which is USA today. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Turkey, most of Western Europe leveraged their relationship with USA as a adoptee. Pakistan never quite managed to get itself 'adopted' by USA. The nearest it came was in 1960s but since then Pakistan has occupied that space between adopted and pariah.

By adopted I mean a realtionship which is structural and strategic. Economics is only one aspect. Not all transactions are looked through prism of profit/loss account. You can look at Greece, South Korea as examples. Both have been supported by the western order with money and blood. Greece has been bailed out with figures in excess of $100 billion. Considering Greece is ten times smaller then Pakistan this is like Pakistan recieving a trillion dollar bailout. US and west would defend Greece and South Korea with lives of their own young servicemen/women. This relationship goes beyond traditional profit/loss account relationships.

Pakistan has failed to nurture such relationship. It now has a chance to do that with China and CPEC is layer in that. It has to be consolidated. The Chinese know this. Those who decry CPEC investments need to be asked where were they when the country cried out for investment? Issuing travel warnings and talking of the imminent collapse of Pakistan.

As mentioned earlier CPEC investment makes Pakistan a adopted client state of China like Greece, South Korea, Polan are of USA. China now can;t afford to Pakistan failing anymore then USA can with Greece or South Korea failing. As more Chinese investmehts pour in Pakistan inevitably gets tied into the Chinese order and Beijing will NOT let it fail. You hardly expect them to run away with motorways, power stations, bridsges from Pakistan. All that investment makes Pakistan a client state that will not be allowed to fail.

The same dynamic that applies between Poland, South Korea, Greece, Italy and USA will apply to China/Pakistan. This is smething to look forward to. And not be afraid. Pakistan has tied it's future to a future and emerging hyper-power.

This needs celebrating !

 

[Dil_Pakistan]

I think its always good to look at the facts or data. Many times these articles come with certain bias.
So here's laying down some facts/info. The recently inaugurated Allama Iqbal SEZ can be taken as an example.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1213026408630497280

and note here, apart from Chinese companies there are local companies as well (twice of Chinese), already pledged.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1213033585919311878

The key imo will be to ensure that these things are setup accordingly and according to plan.
Yes China benefits but so does Pak if we make effort and plan well. Not everything is out of our hand but if we want to remain dependent or have lax attitude of surviving on assistance & not doing things by own, then of course no one can help us.

 

[BringHarmony]

As mentioned earlier CPEC investment makes Pakistan a adopted client state of China like Greece, South Korea, Polan are of USA. China now can;t afford to Pakistan failing anymore then USA can with Greece or South Korea failing. As more Chinese investmehts pour in Pakistan inevitably gets tied into the Chinese order and Beijing will NOT let it fail. You hardly expect them to run away with motorways, power stations, bridsges from Pakistan. All that investment makes Pakistan a client state that will not be allowed to fail.

You are assuming that China will act like USA. It may or it may not. Also, you may see more and more area or aspects in Pakistan coming under direct Chinese control. Unlike western liberal democratic setup where a person or entity has to answer people's wrath if they do something messed up in a foreign land, China/Chinese have no such obligations.
What I am pointing to is sooner or later in such a set up Pakistan's values and religion will come in conflict with their Chinese over-lords. And results will be less than optimal for Pakistan. Remember, China does not know the concept of dissent and there are things which Pakistan will find very hard to surrender.

Here is one example when Chinese have not even started to be in control:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/work...ople-who-ask-to-be-given-time-to-pray.618840/

So wish wisely, because you may just get your wish.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Unlike western liberal democratic setup where a person or entity has to answer people's wrath if they do something messed up in a foreign land, China/Chinese have no such obligations.

I live and was brought up in one of the original liberal democracies - UK. And I can tell you with fact that I have never seen this "wrath" ever stop any elected government messing up foreign lands. Only time I have ever seen any sobering was when body bags came home. Aplenty. Maybe you know differant but you don't need to go far back in time but have the case study of Iraq invasion and the lies etc.

Remember, China does not know the concept of dissent and there are things which Pakistan will find very hard to surrender.

All great powers expect their underlings to conform broadky within their worldview. Go to South Korea and see the rampant Americanism.

What I am pointing to is sooner or later in such a set up Pakistan's values and religion will come in conflict with their Chinese over-lords. And results will be less than optimal for Pakistan.

I want this to happen. You think having a primtive culture, retrogressive medieval supersitions dressed as religion and feudal society is recipe for success for modern economy. Chinese boot up pakistan's posterior might just be the medicine it needs to get dragged into the 21st century and freddom from Saudi camel culture injected into the country on back of petrodollars since 1970s.

 

[Kabira]

So with respect to the whole debt trap aspect - the Chinese aren’t stupid. They obviously understand what Pakistan’s economic constraints are so the question is, what if Pakistan can’t afford to pay back this debt and defaults? It’s China’s money on the line.

One option would be that China takes over some of these CPEC assets, but an already constructed motorway is only going to yield profits if it’s managed properly and the tolls aren’t sky high. The same with power plants.

It’s all very well to say that the Chinese will demand that the GOP pay them back but what if it simply doesn’t have the reserves?

Will the Chinese let Pakistan collapse after all this investment?

China will reschedule payments as they said few months back and scale back investment. Its not question of can Pakistan pay it back but when and at what cost? More begging, inflation, low GDP growth rate etc.

Only solution is for China to start investing by same amount in Phase 2 SEZ's of CPEC as they did in Phase 1. Its more risky but better for Pakistan. Only exports can make sure Pakistan payback to China on time and also become bigger market for their products.

 

[GHALIB]

Folks this is what happens when you fight and fight stupidly without a regard of consequences. Why do India and Pakistan fight so bitterly that other countries are taking undue advantage. All that raising Kashmir question in UNSC, this is how you guys are ending up paying for it. And for China, their own agenda of territorial dispute with India gets a free ride with your own dispute with India.

Very true.

 

[SD 10]

Naah

True, India has been quite a bit less than honest about the issue. There is a nationalistic madness that has taken over that nation. But then Pakistan's support for "Freedom Fighters" is also not helping.


Can you say it is not at ALL about economics? I thought it was majorly about economics, as far as Pakistan goes. You are provding a path to a major warm water port for China. China should be paying through its nose for it and not calling the shots.

! Now you are mixing international affairs with morality. Firstly China got other options, secondly no other nation is ready to do considerable investment in Pakistan. Now we can rant about China being unfair but thats not the right approach. They are here to do buisness. We have been provided with opportunity, its up to is and our domestic industry to take advantage of it and if they couldn't, then only they and the gpvt are to be blamed and not China!

When did ASIA TIMES become a credible source??? WE PAkistani's are idiots.

 

[BringHarmony]

Now you are mixing international affairs with morality.

If you call getting paid for what you sell, morality... its morality I guess. I call it business.

Firstly China got other options

Thats China's problem, not Pakistan's.

secondly no other nation is ready to do considerable investment in Pakistan.

Not true. You get a lot of investment from middle east. Also, don't you see the problem with such a scenario that you believe in the first place?

Now we can rant about China being unfair but thats not the right approach.

So getting short changed and not uttering a word is right approach. Interesting. Hate makes people, weird.

They are here to do buisness.

Apparent Pakistan was not there to do business.

We have been provided with opportunity

No dear, you have been offered a business deal but not allowed to negotiate.

We have been provided with opportunity, its up to is and our domestic industry to take advantage of it and if they couldn

I cann't get this idea. China is not god. Never was.

When did ASIA TIMES become a credible source??? WE PAkistani's are idiots.

The article does have a ring of truth in it. And no, you folks are not idiot. Not at all. Not by any margin. You are --hopefully-- temporarily blinded by the hate.

 

[CriticalThinker02]

You are assuming that China will act like USA. It may or it may not. Also, you may see more and more area or aspects in Pakistan coming under direct Chinese control. Unlike western liberal democratic setup where a person or entity has to answer people's wrath if they do something messed up in a foreign land, China/Chinese have no such obligations.
What I am pointing to is sooner or later in such a set up Pakistan's values and religion will come in conflict with their Chinese over-lords. And results will be less than optimal for Pakistan. Remember, China does not know the concept of dissent and there are things which Pakistan will find very hard to surrender.

Here is one example when Chinese have not even started to be in control:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/work...ople-who-ask-to-be-given-time-to-pray.618840/

So wish wisely, because you may just get your wish.

Was bush answerable to the peoples wrath when he hurled the US in the Iraq war on the pretext of a lie?

 

[Baz]

Folks this is what happens when you fight and fight stupidly without a regard of consequences. Why do India and Pakistan fight so bitterly that other countries are taking undue advantage. All that raising Kashmir question in UNSC, this is how you guys are ending up paying for it. And for China, their own agenda of territorial dispute with India gets a free ride with your own dispute with India.

You, my friend are you full of yourself