Behave or be like North Korea: former US diplomat Zalmay Khalilzad on Pakistan

[T-123456]

So,how is he going to isolate Pakistan,any idea?

 

[RAMPAGE]

Fair enough, a couple of question to test to your argument.

- Which allies ? Can you name a few countries... that will stand up the US for Pakistan interests?

- Muslim world ? Can you name a few countries in the Muslim world that will stand to the US and defend Pakistan? Defending Pakistan keeping in mind that there will be serious consequences for these muslim countries from the US side.

- China : Yes Pakistan's strong strategic partner which has on most occasion has defended Pakistan ( it is in her interests) but do you really think that China will cross paths to defend Pakistan if things were to really heat up? Chinese interests be economical and otherwise are far larger with the US then her relationship with Pakistan. I have always been of the opinion that countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan and even India ( deem themselves more important than they are to the big boys) are pawns in the greater game but if things were to really heat up between the big boy, these smaller countries will be left to dry in a blink of an eye.

Ok this is my understanding, please correct me if I am wrong and I am always happy to learn and adjust my position should you provide a better argumentation.

/Peace

China and the GCC will never halt their trade with us. Our mutual strategic interests won't allow it. China will also use its influence to make sure that its other partners defy any embargoes imposed against Pakistan.

Chinese interests be economical and otherwise are far larger with the US then her relationship with Pakistan

And yet China has defied US every single time when it comes to Pakistan. I'm sure you can recall quite a few instances.

Remember, Pakistan is not N.Korea and neither is it Afghanistan. The kind of influence Pakistan commands can only be dreamed of by those countries.

 

[A-Team]

China and the GCC will never halt their trade with us. Our mutual strategic interests won't allow it. China will also use its influence to make sure that its other partners defy any embargoes imposed against Pakistan.

And yet China has defied US every single time when it comes to Pakistan. I'm sure you can recall quite a few instances.

Remember, Pakistan is not N.Korea and neither is it Afghanistan. The kind of influence Pakistan commands can only be dreamed of by those countries.

Still you are being vague, didn't answer my questions.

- Which allies, name a few that will stand to the US for Pakistan? Turkey, Iran, Malaysia, Indonesia, Russia,.... Specific please

- Which muslim countries, you mentioned GCC? You think the likes of Kuwait, UAE or Saudi will stand look the US in the eye?

- China, yes it has stood for Pakistan but I am referring to a real escalation, when the US decides that Pakistan must be held accountable? China as I mentioned has far larger economic /otherwise relationship with the US, under normal circumstance yes she will help Pakistan but in case major escalation with the US, I have to say the jury is out on that.

 

[pakistani342]

Some pretty strong words from Fmr US ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad.

@pakistani342 : What's your thoughts on the mood in the Capitol Hill? Zal seems to indicate that US Gov is probably resorting to more sticks than carrots this time.

I think Zal is Zal -- he got appointed to his positions because the Bush administration didn't have any other neocons who spoke the language of the native peoples

The other was Achmed Chalabi ;-) ... the less said the better

Isolation is a very strong word -- and if one day Pakistan is isolated it will not be because of anything vis-a-vis Afghanistan -- that is something Afghans need to understand.

Sticks yes -- the last time Pakistan was closest to isolation was post 1989 -- and we all know what the result of that was = 120 + nuclear devices ... an officer core that does not understand the US

Divorce is not on the cards - not because the US / Pak love each other - it's because the US cannot afford to have a pivot of the Muslim world on a hostile footing. Again sticks yes - hostile, not so much

As a US citizen all my interests are in Pakistan -- how many in Afghanistan? by comparison almost zero.

If you want to understand the issue of terrorism (if you honestly believe that to be a core issue) the list is long (ahead of Pakistan):
1. Iran -- for crying out loud Iran supports Hamas and Hizbollah who target Israel -- the Taliban by comparison are little girls -- notice how the US has been treating Iran of late?
2. Saudi Arabia -- notice the multi-billion dialer arms packages? because ... you guessed it ..
3. Qatar -- ISIS
4. the other assorted Gulf states where the money for the Taliban comes from.

Reminder:
1. there is a 500,000 Pakistani diaspora in the US that is active -- (the Afghan diaspora is similarly large but as I've pointed out before is rather stunted)
2. there is a huge active diaspora in the UK -- heck the mayor of London is a Pakistani Brit which is an executive position not an affirmative action position like minister of equality or diversity or something like that
3. Diplomacy wise Afghanistan does not have a representative to UNESCO I think -- and you know my thoughts on Ambassador Mohib ... Pakistan has a huge diplomatic corps (compared to its size)
4. Afghanistan has a lot of good will in the US because of the 1980s and because a lot of people served there -- but good will is for the birds and bees -- in terms of realism a lot of people secretly see it a little more than Pakistan's 5th province

 

[RAMPAGE]

Still you are being vague, didn't answer my questions.

- Which allies, name a few that will stand to the US for Pakistan? Turkey, Iran, Malaysia, Indonesia, Russia,.... Specific please

- Which muslim countries, you mentioned GCC? You think the likes of Kuwait, UAE or Saudi will stand look the US in the eye?

- China, yes it has stood for Pakistan but I am referring to a real escalation, when the US decides that Pakistan must be held accountable? China as I mentioned has far larger economic /otherwise relationship with the US, under normal circumstance yes she will help Pakistan but in case major escalation with the US, I have to say the jury is out on that.

First you need to tell us the reason behind that escalation and its nature. Some of those countries will, as you put it, look the US in the eye, just like Pakistan is doing right now by pursuing our interests in Afghanistan.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

When has become an Afgan Mafia has become the mouthpiece for the US policy??? Aren't these guys responsible for the US failures because they were trusted??

 

[Kompromat]

Wrong, these bureaucrats are just "tools" for implementing US policy. The policy is written by white Christian males in the US. Pressler amendments were an attempt to turn Pakistan into North Korea, well we are not NK. We are an emerging regional power. By 2050, Pakistan's economy will be the size of German economy today, that is not too far, we are not a pushover, not to be taken lightly.

"The relationship between the United States and Pakistan is one of great importance, not only because of our friendship, but also because of national security considerations" John McCain told in an interview yesterday.

Calling someone names is hall mark for a poor case, remember these "dirtbags" influence decision making in the upper echelons of the US Gov.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Fair enough, a couple of question to test to your argument.

- Which allies ? Can you name a few countries... that will stand up the US for Pakistan interests?

- Muslim world ? Can you name a few countries in the Muslim world that will stand to the US and defend Pakistan? Defending Pakistan keeping in mind that there will be serious consequences for these muslim countries from the US side.

- China : Yes Pakistan's strong strategic partner which has on most occasion has defended Pakistan ( it is in her interests) but do you really think that China will cross paths to defend Pakistan if things were to really heat up? Chinese interests be economical and otherwise are far larger with the US then her relationship with Pakistan. I have always been of the opinion that countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan and even India ( deem themselves more important than they are to the big boys) are pawns in the greater game but if things were to really heat up between the big boy, these smaller countries will be left to dry in a blink of an eye.

Ok this is my understanding, please correct me if I am wrong and I am always happy to learn and adjust my position should you provide a better argumentation.

/Peace

As for Turkey, it's one nation, two states. Hint: all the high tech Turkish made weapons are available to Pak. Afgan mafias are precipitating their own fall by picking up a fight with Pak. I won't be surprised if the entire ANA along the Pak border is decimated if they go for any misadventures. Pak is in raging mode..

 

[A-Team]

I think Zal is Zal -- he got appointed to his positions because the Bush administration didn't have any other neocons who spoke the language of the native peoples ( he has always been at the right time at the right place but you gotta give him credit that unlike Chalabi,this dude represented some of the US's most important overseas placements, i.e. AF, IRAQ and the UN

The other was Achmed Chalabi ;-) ... the less said the better ( OK he was one was a complete fraud)

Isolation is a very strong word -- and if one day Pakistan is isolated it will not be because of anything vis-a-vis Afghanistan -- that is something Afghans need to understand. ( True, but the AF episode is probably one of the many other reasons)

Sticks yes -- the last time Pakistan was closest to isolation was post 1989 -- and we all know what the result of that was = 120 + nuclear devices ... an officer core that does not understand the US ( Which means Isolution, typical case scenario, North Korea numerous nuclear devices but isolated, even by China as well )

Divorce is not on the cards - not because the US / Pak love each other - it's because the US cannot afford to have a pivot of the Muslim world on a hostile footing. Again sticks yes - hostile, not so much

As a US citizen all my interests are in Pakistan -- how many in Afghanistan? by comparison almost zero.

If you want to understand the issue of terrorism (if you honestly believe that to be a core issue) the list is long (ahead of Pakistan):
1. Iran -- for crying out loud Iran supports Hamas and Hizbollah who target Israel -- the Taliban by comparison are little girls -- notice how the US has been treating Iran of late? ( I liked the little girl simile )
2. Saudi Arabia -- notice the multi-billion dialer arms packages? because ... you guessed it ..
3. Qatar -- ISIS
4. the other assorted Gulf states where the money for the Taliban comes from. ( All of the points 2,3,4 carry weight )

Reminder:
1. there is a 500,000 Pakistani diaspora in the US that is active -- (the Afghan diaspora is similarly large but as I've pointed out before is rather stunted) ( Active diaspora yes, but has that translated into anything tangible for Pakistan in terms of concessions ? The F 16, NSG saga are good examples of NO), Pakistan recently opted again to require services of a lobby firm.

2. there is a huge active diaspora in the UK -- heck the mayor of London is a Pakistani Brit which is an executive position not an affirmative action position like minister of equality or diversity or something like that
3. Diplomacy wise Afghanistan does not have a representative to UNESCO I think -- and you know my thoughts on Ambassador Mohib ... Pakistan has a huge diplomatic corps (compared to its size)
4. Afghanistan has a lot of good will in the US because of the 1980s and because a lot of people served there -- but good will is for the birds and bees -- in terms of realism a lot of people secretly see it a little more than Pakistan's 5th province There is a strong bi-partisan support from Afghanistan and of course the military, and terming AF as a 5th province is just an exaggeration, otherwise why invest billions, commit billions more and all other sacrifices in blood, if they are to see it as PAK province.

@pakistani342 tried to quickly respond to some of your points, more will follow when I get some time.

/Peace

 

[Spectre]

As for Turkey, it's one nation, two states. Hint: all the high tech Turkish made weapons are available to Pak. Afgan mafias are precipitating their own fall by picking up a fight with Pak. I won't be surprised if the entire ANA along the Pak border is decimated if they go for any misadventures. Pak is in raging mode..

And the other countries will just sit back and eat popcorn? Lot of countries have security interest in Afghanistan - Russia, US, Iran, China and India. They might have a thing or two to say to a raging Pakistani Army.

Do you think India and US would let their multi billion dollar investments in current Afghan Dispensation just go down the drain? This kind of childish rants are only betray absolute ignorance of the dynamics in Afghanistan.

It is advisable Pakistan eliminates Taliban, LET, JUD, LEJ and other alphabetic soup of terrorist organizations within it's own borders or others might take matters in their own hands like US did Osama and other Taliban leaders.

 

[A-Team]

As for Turkey, it's one nation, two states. Hint: all the high tech Turkish made weapons are available to Pak. Afgan mafias are precipitating their own fall by picking up a fight with Pak. I won't be surprised if the entire ANA along the Pak border is decimated if they go for any misadventures. Pak is in raging mode..

It is about interests, Turkey is not a dear brother of anyone, its just following her interests. It will dump Pak in a blink of an eye should her interests diverge. Turkey is in bed with Israel because it serves your interests

BTW not blaming Turkey per-se but let's be honest about Turkey geo-political considerations and here desires for being chummy with Pakistan just because of a good well

Remember how Turkey dumped Syria in the recent conflict?

Wrong, these bureaucrats are just "tools" for implementing US policy. The policy is written by white Christian males in the US. Pressler amendments were an attempt to turn Pakistan into North Korea, well we are not NK. We are an emerging regional power. By 2050, Pakistan's economy will be the size of German economy today, that is not too far, we are not a pushover, not to be taken lightly.

"The relationship between the United States and Pakistan is one of great importance, not only because of our friendship, but also because of national security considerations" John McCain told in an interview yesterday.

White Christian males? Never thought you believed in conspiracy theories.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Afghani said it, Indian reported it. Who cares.

Look at his credibility:

Former Envoy Reported Facing a Federal Inquiry
Zalmay Khalilzad Is Suspected of Tax Evasion and Money Laundering

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/09/world/zalmay-khalilzad-tax-evasion-investigation.html

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

It is about interests, Turkey is not a dear brother of anyone, its just following her interests. It will dump Pak in a blink of an eye should her interests diverge. Turkey is in bed with Israel because it serves your interests

BTW not blaming Turkey per-se but let's be honest about Turkey geo-political considerations and here desires for being chummy with Pakistan just because of a good well

Remember how Turkey dumped Syria in the recent conflict?



White Christian males? Never thought you believed in conspiracy theories.

Then wait till the "Najibullah" moment...

 

[Kompromat]

Never thought you believed in Utopia.

White Christian males? Never thought you believed in conspiracy theories.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

And the other countries will just sit back and eat popcorn? Lot of countries have security interest in Afghanistan - Russia, US, Iran, China and India. They might have a thing or two to say to a raging Pakistani Army.

Do you think India and US would let their multi billion dollar investments in current Afghan Dispensation just go down the drain? This kind of childish rants are only betray absolute ignorance of the dynamics in Afghanistan.

It is advisable Pakistan eliminates Taliban, LET, JUD, LEJ and other alphabetic soup of terrorist organizations within it's own borders or others might take matters in their own hands like US did Osama and other Taliban leaders.

And the other countries will just sit back and eat popcorn? Lot of countries have security interest in Afghanistan - Russia, US, Iran, China and India. They might have a thing or two to say to a raging Pakistani Army.

Do you think India and US would let their multi billion dollar investments in current Afghan Dispensation just go down the drain? This kind of childish rants are only betray absolute ignorance of the dynamics in Afghanistan.

It is advisable Pakistan eliminates Taliban, LET, JUD, LEJ and other alphabetic soup of terrorist organizations within it's own borders or others might take matters in their own hands like US did Osama and other Taliban leaders.

Didn't they have any investments in Vietnam too?