BEA in talks to weaponise Indian Hawks

[janon]

Thats what happens when Congress makes a deal

IAFcan demand all they want but until they learn and implement how the Indian NAVY does business, it will continous problem in that particular wing.

The Navy was not accountable to the Congress led govt?

 

[sancho]

So there are at least a 100 if not more strikers that need to be replaced.

So we have reduced the myth to 100 now, but still you fail to understand that Darin 3 is meant to keep them operational beyond 2025, not to mention that we have kept producing Jags till 2008, which means that a good part of them is pretty new and far far away of the replacement you are talking and not a single Jag will be replaced until FGFA, most likely Aura or AMCA are available!

Upgraded mig-29 can, but we have only 60 of them.

Which equals 120 x single role fighters! In Kargil you needed a bunch of strike fighters, that were covered by another bunch of escort fighters + topcover to do CAS. Today IAF can do the same mission with half the fighters, if the fighters are able to carry strike and A2A payloads at the same time, which is exactly what the upgraded Mig 29s and Mirage 2000s can do. So IAF can do the same with less numbers on paper! IAF is replacing 200+ Mig 23s and 27s with the same number of MKIs, which means they will have twice the number of fighters to do A2A and twice the number to do A2G missions than before.

So don't fall for the paper figure of squadron numbers, while ignoring the clear increase of capability in IAF today!

You mean the helicopter that was shot down by a portable SAM? Sure, but that's not what we are going to do, is it? Unless it is in CI, the hawks will be escorted by Sukhois which can provide EW in the battlespace.

We have not only lost helicopters, but also older Migs and that against the capabilites back then, it's not like our oponents stand still, that's why IAF is adding credible EW / countermeasure capability to all COMBAT fighters today, which the Hawks doesn't have. Even if the escorting MKIs would have escort jammers, they wouldn't help the Hawks against IR missiles. That is the low end of air defences we are talking here, so if even that is a crucial threat, then think about the real defence capabilities of our opponents.

What would be more expensive - a mirage escorted by Sukhois, or a Hawk escorted by Sukhois?

The Mirage wouldn't need escorts, because it can defend itself even in strike configs, that's why it's far cheaper to use it, or even Mig 29UPGs alone, instead of adding escort fighters to Hawks.

 

[janon]

So we have reduced the myth to 100 now, but still you fail to understand that Darin 3 is meant to keep them operational beyond 2025, not to mention that we have kept producing Jags till 2008, which means that a good part of them is pretty new and far far away of the replacement you are talking and not a single Jag will be replaced until FGFA, most likely Aura or AMCA are available!

It is not a myth. I said at least a hundred, if not more. That's a fact. There could very well be 200+, because only 120 Jaguars were put through upgrades. The rest will be retired.

Which equals 120 x single role fighters!

Nope. It doesn't work that way. 1 multirole fighter may be able to do the work of 1 striker and 1 fighter, but it cannot be in two places at the same time. So if you need CAS in two places, you need two aircrafts - not one multirole.

Today IAF can do the same mission with half the fighters, if the fighters are able to carry strike and A2A payloads at the same time, which is exactly what the upgraded Mig 29s and Mirage 2000s can do. So IAF can do the same with less numbers on paper! IAF is replacing 200+ Mig 23s and 27s with the same number of MKIs, which means they will have twice the number of fighters to do A2A and twice the number to do A2G missions than before.

So don't fall for the paper figure of squadron numbers, while ignoring the clear increase of capability in IAF today!

The adversaries are also inducting multirole fighters. It's not an exclusive priviledge of the IAF. The needs are also changing, and the IAF has categorically statedf that they are short of desired strength. I cannot think of a more authoritative voice than them, to assess our threats and needs. There is a reason there are such concepts as "sanctioned strength".

We have not only lost helicopters, but also older Migs

Your point was in the context of EW measures. Migs were not lost due to lack of EW capability.

The Mirage wouldn't need escorts, because it can defend itself even in strike configs,

You yourself quoted earlier that the Mirages needed strike escort. And that isw true, mig-29s gave fighter cover for mirages and jags. Even discounting that, there are hundreds of attack aircraft today that need fighter cover. 100+ of them are about to retire, so temporarily weaponizing Hawks will not increase the burden of providing fighter escorts.

 

[sancho]

There could very well be 200+, because only 120 Jaguars were put through upgrades.

Over decades, which were replaced with newer once, IAF currently has just 6 x squadrons of Jaguars and they will be upgraded and not replaced anytime soon.

Nope. It doesn't work that way. 1 multirole fighter may be able to do the work of 1 striker and 1 fighter, but it cannot be in two places at the same time. So if you need CAS in two places, you need two aircrafts - not one multirole.

It don't have to be at 2 places, since you need less fighters, which means you send the additional fighters for other strike missions.

Past: 2 strike fighters + 2 escort fighter = 4 fighters in total for 1 mission
Present: 2 Mirage UPG for the same mission, while the other 2 can be diverted to another mission

The needs are also changing, and the IAF has categorically statedf that they are short of desired strength. I cannot think of a more authoritative voice than them, to assess our threats and needs. There is a reason there are such concepts as "sanctioned strength".

The squadron strength has nothing to do with the capability of the fighters, nor with how many fighters you need to do a mission today. It shows how many fighters and bases you need all over the country, to protect the Indian airspace. The need for 42 squads doesn't mean 21 for A2A and 21 for A2G, but one part in the east, one in the west, one in the south..., either on available bases, or on newly raised bases in newly raised combat aircraft squads. The trainer aircrafts are only meant to train the pilots to use these combat fighters later and have no relation to the 42 combat aircrafts IAF require.

Your point was in the context of EW measures. Migs were not lost due to lack of EW capability.

Against IR missiles and the Hawks offer even less capability than the Migs had back then. So you would need to add several millions to upgrade them first, to give them even basic self protection capabilities and not even that will safe them from advanced air defences or the fighters our opponents have. Our situation is simply not suited to use aircrafts that have so many limitations, which is exactly why IAF requires so much from their fighter fleet, be it wrt flight performance or technical capability.

You yourself quoted earlier that the Mirages needed strike escort. And that isw true, mig-29s gave fighter cover for mirages and jags.

Of course, since the older Mirage fighters were not able to carry strike configs and a sufficient load of AAM's to defend themselfs. The upgraded Mirage 2000-5 however, will carry to 5 to 6 x MICA missiles in any mission and still can add a SPICE 2000, 2 x 500lb LGBs, or even 2 x 1000lb LGBs at short ranges, not to mention that it will carry the EW jammers internally. Just as the Mig 29 after the upgrade will not only be able to carry A2G weapons, but also to carry a full set of 4 x AAMs in any mission, since it now has 4 wingstations.

MKI, Mirage UPG, Mig 29UPG and MMRCAs can do 2 missions at once => need less fighters
LCA MK1 and Jags can do strikes, with minimum self defence capabilities => but needs additional escorts
Hawks can drop bombs, but falls very short in self defence => will be an easy target for A2A and A2G threats, even with escorts

 

[Indos]

Just for info, Indonesian Hawk 109/209 are equipped with Sidewinder/ AGM-65 Maverick missile/ MK 82 bomb, only 8 are for merely training, the other 24 are weaponized with radar equal to F-16 A/B.

 

[nik22]

@sancho , fully agree about your POV of 42 squadron strength of IAF. IAF need to do a reassessment of required squadron strength. IAF is just too obsessed about this number. Chief always quote same.

Buying fighters is not a one time expense. Lifecycle costs are much higher. IAF should optimize their resources. I see no point in Hawks.

BTW, how many LCA trainer are ordered by IAF? They can be weaponized, right?

 

[sancho]

BTW, how many LCA trainer are ordered by IAF? They can be weaponized, right?

LCA squads have 4 x twin seaters if I'm not wrong, but they are not just trainers, but fully fledged combat aircrafts, far more capable than the Hawks.