Battles of 1971

[sonicboom]

Non-Bengalis were indeed killed, but only as reaction to the atrocities committed by the Pakistani army. Your allegation is akin to accusing a rape victim of ‘hurting’ her rapist in the process of defending herself.

It’s your personal opinion and you are entitling to it but it carries no weight. Do you have any evidence or proof from an independent non Indian reliable source, if there is any, to support your baseless personal claim? Just wondering if you were one of those RAW agents fighting along with Mukti Bahini in East Pakistan during that time that you know all this? I gave rebuttal for each allegation with evidence from reliable sources. Read the following again:

INTERNMENT CAMPS OF BANGLADESH by Loraine Mirza, an American born Journalist
“Armed Awami League supporters, their ranks swelled by students and deserters from the army and police, went on a rampage in East Pakistan, in which tens of thousands of non-Bengalis, at least 25,000 or more, were butchered between January and March 1971. The victims included the Urdu-speaking people (Biharis) as well as officials and their families from West Pakistan.”


As a matter of fact, in my opinion, the number is lot higher than what’s quoted above. I had many relatives including my father in the army at that time and we continue to hear news about how Wet Pakistani army officers and soldiers with their families were butchered especially by the soldiers of the East Bengal regiments before the army action. This news was not advertised to save the necks of hundreds and thousands of Bengalis living in West Pakistan. Just for your kind information, they all were treated in a very dignified manner and not even a single incident of beating or hurting or killing of any Bengali occurred in West Pakistan.

And read the following about what happened after the end of war:

‘In a brutal bloodletting following the expulsion of the Pakistani army, perhaps 150,000 people were murdered by the vengeful victors. (Rummel, Death By Government, p. 334.)”

You forgot to tell us, what would constitute ‘proof’ in your book. In fact you have ended up doing exactly what you have accused people of – that of beating about the bush. Not only that, to provide your ‘proof’ you have simply distorted history – even the ones which are recorded by neutral parties – and have quoted dubious research works to support your claim.

If you are such a naïve and don’t know what constitute a proof or evidence, then I would suggest that you shut up and mind your own business. If I provided, as you say, dubious research works to support my claim, then at least you could have done the same but you did not as you had nothing to show that would support any of your baseless claims.

A word or two (or three) about Hamoodur Rahman Commission (HRC). HRC arrived at that outrageously ridiculous number of deaths on the basis of this even outrageously little witness. It is a joke, by any standard. Quoting HRC figures of death toll, as something etched in stone, is intellectual bankruptcy.

It’s a Joke by whom? I guess by you and by the way who are you? You credentials? I did not quote this report myself but by the scholars who were participating in the US State Departments conference. If I were to pick between you and them, I would pick them without any doubt. Read again the following:

US State Department conference
"The historian branch of the State Department held a two-day conference on June 28 and 29 on US policy in South Asia between 1961 and 1972, inviting scholars from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh to express their views on the declassified documents.

Shamsher M. Chowdhury, the Bangladesh ambassador in Washington who was commissioned in the Pakistan Army in 1969 but had joined his country’s war of liberation in 1971, acknowledged that Bangladesh alone cannot correct this mistake. Instead, he suggested that Pakistan and Bangladesh form a joint commission to investigate the 1971 disaster and prepare a report.

Almost all scholars agreed that the real figure was somewhere between 26,000, as reported by the Hamoodur Rahman Commission, and not three million, the official figure put forward by Bangladesh and India."


And if this figure is low according to your standard, then 3 million number is very high by my standard.


Refer to your post to taimikhan

Go ahead, refute it. Show us that, 'massive number of West Pakistani soldiers, their families, civilians and non Bengalis were already killed by Indian created and trained Mukti Bahini, deserters form the East Pakistan Rifles and the East Bengal Regiment.'

And why don’t you show us that the massacre did not occur before the army action. Do you have any evidence or proof?

I understand that your frustration is popping out as boils in your azz. Hence all this hopping around like, lets just say, our primate cousin in the wild. I know, it sucks to be wrong and then be proved wrong, that too by an Indian. (If it is of any consolation, you are not the only one. A few weeks back, my posts were deleted, under similar circumstance, simply because I am an Indian)

On another note, cow dung is actually very useful as fertilizer, insect repellent and source of bio-gas. I must thank you for calling my post as equivalent to cowdung. That is a complement, hard to find around here.

I don’t have any frustration. I just react. You have not proven me wrong as it would take you another janaam (life) to do so. First get your facts straight and come up with some credible proof and evidence to support your claim as I have done it. Your personal opinion has no value and is considered as a piece of shi!t.

You are not alone if your post was deleted. Oh! You poor baby, don’t you cry? We all have our complaints. I have my posts and threads deleted or locked by the moderators. We like it or not, the fact is that they are the moderators and we must obey them as they are there to implement the forum rules. Instead of complaining, you should be thankful that a platform such as this forum has been provided to you where you can express opinion freely and openly and even can bash Pakistan. If you are not happy, then you do have other choices. No one is forcing you to stick around.

I am glad to hear that you have found cow dung very useful. I have also heard that it’s a good anti depressant in case you need it as you sound very depressed in your response.

 

[Mak Kam]

 

[Mak Kam]

a really nice french song for pakistan

 

[TopCat]

Here, (140,000 + 80,000) = 220,000 killed even after 2 nukes in 2 densely cities.
So how could it is claimed that 3000,000 killed in 71 by some people?!

These are the total number of people lived in those cities. They all dead. BD had 700 mln people that time. Take a analytical test (GRE???) before making some analogy.

 

[eastwatch]

LETTERS OF 1971
A 8th letter, written by a freedom fighter named (Ghazi) Md. Abdur Rauf Bobin to his mother Mosammat Rafia Khatun. He wrote the letter on July 16, 1971. I have shortened the letter. a little.


Mother,

I am writing this letter from a liberation war camp. It is raining outside. I can see the sky covered with clouds. Sometimes, there are thunders. It is raining since morning, so I do not feel good today.

Mother, do you remember that in such a day as it is today I went outside the house, slipped my steps and twisted my leg. After this event, I refrained from going out in the rains because I was worried about falling down again. But, today such a coward boy of yours has become a brave and fights with a rifle in hands.

Mother, I cannot make you understand how thrilling it is to counter the enemy attacks. This change of mind is because I love my country, Bangladesh. Mother, you cried the day I had lost ways when I wernt to Syedpur with father. But, then you are the same mother who did not cry when I came to the battle field.

It is a life of bullets, shells and mortars. I have made a KASAM to fight against the cruelty of Yahya. Now, I have to spend sleepless nights in the bunker. Some times, I am with a group to attack an enemy camp. Our war is against oppression and we shall be victorious.

Mother, I remember the day when I told you that I was going to join the Liberation War. Your eyes became bright with happiness. You allowed me to leave that evening with a smiling face.

Our so many hopes and expectations did not materialize, and were burned down into ashes. But, will you remember the evening I have said al-bida to you?

Yours Bobin

 

[gromell]

Seriously what is wrong with you people, can't you just move forward, get over it. And Gromell don't forget this is a PAKISTANI DEFENCE FORUM, so don't come here and give us your bs.

Majority people who are Pakistani do not hate Bangladesh, instead most of us want to build a foundation in which Friendship can be born out of it. I know that its important to talk about the past, as the past defines the future, but having continous threads on 1971 is not productive, plus its Pakistan's dark history in which we all want to forget. All i'm saying is brothers why not make threads which are affecting current issues, because if you stay stuck in the past then you will be left behind. Hope I did not offend any Bangladeshi brothers.

P.S Gromell you have a disturbed mind, I suggets that you should go and see a councilor, just some friendly advice.

Looks like you are a councilor who is VERY concerned for my mental health! It would be better if you contribute to the topic of the thread instead of practising your psychoanalysis in a defence forum. I am speaking the truth, if that sounds disturbing then I guess the truth was actually disturbing! So twisting the past so that it gets a fairy tale ending will make us go forward?! I think someone did not grow up at all here...

There are plenty of threads related to the past wars that Pakistan fought, well specially the ones Pakistan won. So any disastrous campaign for Pakistan must not be talked about?! ohh dear, is that the problem here?!

 

[gromell]

Being an instructor pilot, under circumstances, he could have attempted to steal a plane and defect solo, but there was every possibility he would be chased by the PAF and most probably shot down, in the event you could have portrayed him as your hero, but instead he hijacks a trainee pilot to guarantee his own safety, little realizing the determination and spirit of self sacrifice of the young PAF pilot. However the actions of Matiur were not only that of a traitor but also a coward.

I thought you must have known this because you are talking about 1971 war. But I guess I was wrong. Being a Bengali, Matiur was barred from flying solo in 1971. All Bengali pilots were grounded and were put in office jobs.

 

[Skies]

These are the total number of people lived in those cities. They all dead. BD had 700 mln people that time. Take a analytical test (GRE???) before making some analogy.

I know it damn well that there was more people in BD then those 2 cities. I was comparing the killing of people by conventional arms and nukes. Using conventional arms it is not possible though it was 9 months of war. I'm sure that u've understood what I wanted to mean actually.

Either there was a printing mistake or there was a deliberate change of amount of killed of people, like 3 million means a 11,538 people for each of the 260 days that the war continued (look post#193), which means (11538 x 260) = 29,99,880. Or there was a deliberate change of history. I also know from family and relatives. They are not agree with this killed amount. No one died in 71 in our large family and relatives though they were not razakar and tortured by Pak army for 15 days and used to live in Dhaka.
How Gromell claims that every family had lost any of their members?

 

[Windjammer]

I thought you must have known this because you are talking about 1971 war. But I guess I was wrong. Being a Bengali, Matiur was barred from flying solo in 1971. All Bengali pilots were grounded and were put in office jobs.

The incident occurred on 20th August 1971, hostilities were in place but the all out war didn't start until four months later.
Matiur was in uniform and free to roam around the base as is evidence of him hijacking the plane during a taxi run.

 

[TopCat]

I know it damn well that there was more people in BD then those 2 cities. I was comparing the killing of people by conventional arms and nukes. Using conventional arms it is not possible though it was 9 months of war. I'm sure that u've understood what I wanted to mean actually.

Either there was a printing mistake or there was a deliberate change of amount of killed of people, like 3 million means a 11,538 people for each of the 260 days that the war continued (look post#193), which means (11538 x 260) = 29,99,880. Or there was a deliberate change of history. I also know from family and relatives. They are not agree with this killed amount. No one died in 71 in our large family and relatives though they were not razakar and tortured by Pak army for 15 days and used to live in Dhaka.
How Gromell claims that every family had lost any of their members?

I know you wont get it. Just give it a break now..

World War II casualties - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Try to analyze this figures. If you can ofcourse.
Let me help you.
See the figure of Japan. 2.1 million soldier died, compared to only half million civilian dead and half of them are dead due to nukes.

Go on and find China. There were no nuke exploded in China.
Total military death 3 million to 4 million. And a ashtonishing civilian casualties 7 million to 16 million.

Why these two just does not match? Because Japanese were agressor and they took the battle to foreign land and in this case it's china. Chinese people were shot at point blank by the japanese with smaller arms. They also used chinese as guinea pig for some scientific research (eg. chemical weapons, biological weapons etc). Later USA bought those data from Japs.

Also if you are smart enough you should see the casualty figures are just an estimation. Nobody keep track of body count at the time of war and after the war. This is also due to the emotional aspects attached to the victims and their families. We also did not count the body, and we dont want to. This is how it is, 3 lac or 3 million does not make any difference now. If pakistanis can claim, we killed more than 150,000 people in the course of 3 weeks when their percentage of civilians is less than .05% of the total population and with primitive weapons like DA, KASTI, BOITA, STICK then its very natural that a army of 100,000 troops with modern weapons should be able to kill more than 3 million when 70 million people are their potential enemy.

 

[Windjammer]

To my understanding, there are no recordings in the PAF record that suggest that Rashid Minhas deliberately crashed his airplane. It is understood however, that he tried his best to take control of his plane and in that struggle, the plane hit the ground. So those who are saying that Rashid Minhas deliberately crashed his plane and embraced shahadat in the process and those who are saying he was not a sane person, both are wrong.

Rest of what you have said is common sense and there should be no disagreement on this. But remember one thing, at the time all these unfortunate things happened, the Bengalis who defected from PA, PAF were no longer Pakistanis, neither were they considering themselves Pakistanis so don’t call them traitors. They were at war with West Pakistan and non-Bengalis and in war, taking hostage your enemy as your life insurance is just another tactic, nothing more nothing less.

Unlike say a T-37, the seating in a T-33 aren't tandem hence the struggle would have been over the controls rather than hand to hand.
I have spoken to some guys who matter, they were of the opinion that during the flight, Rashid Minhas could have easily ejected to safety as he always remained over Pakistani territory, and with the canopy gone, the vulnerable T-33 in all likely hood wouldn't have been unable to cope with slipstream and would have gone down, but there was also an outside chance of it maintaining it's flight course and the abducting pilot succeeding. The rest is history.

 

[toxic_pus]

It’s your personal opinion and you are entitling to it but it carries no weight. Do you have any evidence or proof from an independent non Indian reliable source, if there is any, to support your baseless personal claim? Just wondering if you were one of those RAW agents fighting along with Mukti Bahini in East Pakistan during that time that you know all this? I gave rebuttal for each allegation with evidence from reliable sources. Read the following again:

INTERNMENT CAMPS OF BANGLADESH by Loraine Mirza, an American born Journalist
“Armed Awami League supporters, their ranks swelled by students and deserters from the army and police, went on a rampage in East Pakistan, in which tens of thousands of non-Bengalis, at least 25,000 or more, were butchered between January and March 1971. The victims included the Urdu-speaking people (Biharis) as well as officials and their families from West Pakistan.”

In my earlier post I had quoted from declassified US documents, which reveal without any semblance of doubt, that the situation, during Jan – March, was nowhere as grave as killing ‘25,000 or more’ people within 3 months would suggest. The rate of killing would then be a staggering 300 per day for 84 days, by mostly unarmed Bengalis in the presence of PA. That situation hardly warrants an assessment as ‘violence […] has been limited’ (Memorandum Report, 1st March, 1971; FRUS, pg 2), and certainly can’t be termed a ‘deadlock’ (Memorandum Report, 13th March, 1971; FRUS, pg 19). In fact, the US policymakers were themselves not sure of what had led to the crackdown. (This continues to be one the mysteries of 1971, even to this day) That is not to say, occasional murders or violence had never happened during that time, but certainly, not as bloody as you would have us believe.

I haven’t come across any other research work, e.g. Sissone, Rose, Wirsing etc, where such claim, or allegation has been made. In all probability you have deliberately distorted Loranie Mirza’s comments, just like you have lied about Rummel’s(see below). I would like to see a link or citation on this.

On another note, Loraine Mirza was married to a Pakistani and was ‘on a council at the Pakistan embassy in Washington DC dealing with the press and media from 1971 to 1974’. Her testimony is anything but ‘neutral’.

As a matter of fact, in my opinion, the number is lot higher than what’s quoted above. I had many relatives including my father in the army at that time and we continue to hear news about how Wet Pakistani army officers and soldiers with their families were butchered especially by the soldiers of the East Bengal regiments before the army action. This news was not advertised to save the necks of hundreds and thousands of Bengalis living in West Pakistan. Just for your kind information, they all were treated in a very dignified manner and not even a single incident of beating or hurting or killing of any Bengali occurred in West Pakistan.

The first emphasis explains where you are coming from and where you are going with this. Regarding the last emphasis, well, I guess moon is made of cheese as well.

And read the following about what happened after the end of war:

‘In a brutal bloodletting following the expulsion of the Pakistani army, perhaps 150,000 people were murdered by the vengeful victors. (Rummel, Death By Government, p. 334.)”

Funny that you should quote R.J.Rummel. If you had actually read the book, particularly the chapter ‘The Pakistani Cutthroat State’, you wouldn’t have even mentioned his name, no matter how favorable one or two comments of his may appear to you.

But first things first. Rummel doesn’t say anything of that sort in his book. You, my friend, are a grade A liar.

Now, about the figure that Rummel quotes. He claims that the murder of non-bengalis numbered to around 150,000 during the entire conflict, between March – December. He also claims that murder of Bengalis numbered to 1,503,000 during the same time. He pegs the total loss of life between March-December of 1971 at 1,700,000 +. That figure includes war casualties, genocide by PA and killings by both Bengalis and non-Bengalis.

Rummel says on page 331:

“..the Pakistani army and allied paramilitary groups killed about one out of every sixty-one people in Pakistan overall; one out of every twenty-five Bengalis, Hindus, and others in East Pakistan. If the rate of killing for all of Pakistan is annualized over the years the Yahya martial law regime was in power (March 1969 to December 1971), then this one regime was more lethal than that of the Soviet Union, China under the communists, or Japan under the military (even through World War II). That is Yahya Khan, a name still largely unknown outside of Pakistan and Bangladesh, killed in cold blood proportionally per year more people than Lenin, Stalin, or Mao Tse-tung. Of course, he must bow to Hitler and Pol Pot.”

Here is a friendly suggestion. Don’t quote something that you have yourself never read.

If you are such a naïve and don’t know what constitute a proof or evidence, then I would suggest that you shut up and mind your own business. If I provided, as you say, dubious research works to support my claim, then at least you could have done the same but you did not as you had nothing to show that would support any of your baseless claims.

I know what constitutes proof. What I don’t know is what you would accept as proof. I had quoted you declassified US documents. Except for reflecting a US point of view, can anything be more neutral or authoritative than those. That you have deliberately overlooked those quotes and simply rehashed your arguments with lies and distorted quotes, kind of proves my point.

It’s a Joke by whom? I guess by you and by the way who are you? You credentials? I did not quote this report myself but by the scholars who were participating in the US State Departments conference. If I were to pick between you and them, I would pick them without any doubt. Read again the following:

US State Department conference
"The historian branch of the State Department held a two-day conference on June 28 and 29 on US policy in South Asia between 1961 and 1972, inviting scholars from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh to express their views on the declassified documents.

Shamsher M. Chowdhury, the Bangladesh ambassador in Washington who was commissioned in the Pakistan Army in 1969 but had joined his country’s war of liberation in 1971, acknowledged that Bangladesh alone cannot correct this mistake. Instead, he suggested that Pakistan and Bangladesh form a joint commission to investigate the 1971 disaster and prepare a report.

Almost all scholars agreed that the real figure was somewhere between 26,000, as reported by the Hamoodur Rahman Commission, and not three million, the official figure put forward by Bangladesh and India."

You are at your liberty to believe whomsoever you choose to. I have provided my arguments against Hamoodur Rahman Commission Report. Provide counter arguments, instead of quoting opinion of a blogger at Dawn.com. It is strange, how you expect everyone to provide ‘neutral’ assessments while you merrily quote from Dawn.com. Hypocrisy has a new avatar.

And why don’t you show us that the massacre did not occur before the army action. Do you have any evidence or proof?

The claim is yours. You should provide evidence of mass massacre before army action. So far you haven’t provided any.

I don’t have any frustration. I just react. You have not proven me wrong as it would take you another janaam (life) to do so. First get your facts straight and come up with some credible proof and evidence to support your claim as I have done it. Your personal opinion has no value and is considered as a piece of shi!t.

Yes, my opinion is sh!t. However, the sources and references I have used, are not.

You are not alone if your post was deleted. Oh! You poor baby, don’t you cry? We all have our complaints. I have my posts and threads deleted or locked by the moderators. We like it or not, the fact is that they are the moderators and we must obey them as they are there to implement the forum rules. Instead of complaining, you should be thankful that a platform such as this forum has been provided to you where you can express opinion freely and openly and even can bash Pakistan. If you are not happy, then you do have other choices. No one is forcing you to stick around.

Have some coolaide. I don’t have any grouse. I am however amused that a mod couldn’t think of any suitable reason and had to resort to my nationality.

I am glad to hear that you have found cow dung very useful. I have also heard that it’s a good anti depressant in case you need it as you sound very depressed in your response.

Depressed? Far from it. I have pity for you though.

 

[BanglaBhoot]

This is how it is, 3 lac or 3 million does not make any difference now. If pakistanis can claim, we killed more than 150,000 people in the course of 3 weeks when their percentage of civilians is less than .05% of the total population and with primitive weapons like DA, KASTI, BOITA, STICK then its very natural that a army of 10000 troops with modern weapons should be able to kill more than 3 million when 700 million people are their potential enemy.

Where are you getting this figure of 700 million population for Bangladesh. You mean 70 million. This was the same mistake Sheikh Mujib made when he mentioned the figure of 3 million dead in 1971. In the most recent bloody genocide in an even more densely populated country (Rwanda) in a matter of 3 months only 500 000 people were killed. If you times that by 3 (i.e. 9 months) than the fugure does not exceed 1 500 000.

My father was a doctor in 1971 and according to his estimate there were not more than 150000 killed.

 

[TopCat]

Where are you getting this figure of 700 million population for Bangladesh. You mean 70 million. This was the same mistake Sheikh Mujib made when he mentioned the figure of 3 million dead in 1971. In the most recent bloody genocide in an even more densely populated country (Rwanda) in a matter of 3 months only 500 000 people were killed. If you times that by 3 (i.e. 9 months) than the fugure does not exceed 1 500 000.

My father was a doctor in 1971 and according to his estimate there were not more than 150000 killed.

Sorry for the mistake.. I dont think a doctor is in a position to make that kind of estimate. Again I was not disputing any estimate on my previous post.

 

[Skies]

This is how it is, 3 lac or 3 million does not make any difference now.

Hah......HAHAHAHAHAHA.............

BTW, Then why we r debating if there is no difference?