BATTLE REPORT # I - KALKA RIVER 1223 (RE-DONE)

[AUSTERLITZ]

th

I'm currently reading about the debate if Mongols could have conquered Europe ? Any thoughts on this @AUSTERLITZ

I think they would have won all the field battles because in their time the mongol way of war was almost unbeatable worldwide,but due to logistical probelms - the forests in germany and the alps..as the steppes ended after poland it would have been very difficult for them to sustain themselves.They would have caused huge carnage,but not permanent conquest.

 

[flamer84]

th


I think they would have won all the field battles because in their time the mongol way of war was almost unbeatable worldwide,but due to logistical probelms - the forests in germany and the alps..as the steppes ended after poland it would have been very difficult for them to sustain themselves.They would have caused huge carnage,but not permanent conquest.

The thing is that they did come back for conquest in the 2nd invasion of Hungary and the 3rd invasion of Poland (1285,1287),only to be defeated en detail by these 2 countries and had to turn back with their battered armies.

Another thing that happenned is ,that even in the first invasion of Hungary ,the Mongols couldn't conquer ONE of the only 10 Hungarian stone castles.Western Europe had hundreds upon hundreds of stone castles.This combined with forested areea made the supreme Mongol weapon (mobility) useless.Another detail is the Battle of Mohi against the Hungarians,which the Mongols won but at great losses and with its outcome in doubt at a certain point .Crossbowmen and knights prooved effective against the Mongols but the Hungarians had very few of those 2 at Mohi unlike the armies of the Holy Roman Empire,France,Italian states,etc.When they improoved ,the Hungarians routed the Mongols 40 years later.

You will say that the Mongols conquered the Jin with formidable castles but their home base was much closer.Or the Southern Song,whose territory was much more forested that N China but here the Mongols had a solid supply base and Chinese foot manpower from N China.These resources weren't available in their Eastern European domains towards a Western conquest.
On top of this ,Chinese states had a central power base,Mongols went for the throat,captured the capital ,killed the leader,took the country.Europe was much more feudal,with hundreds of castles and leaders.The forrests,the mountains,the hills made a besieging nomad army like the Mongol one very vulnerable,especially if they were heavily outnumbered.Even if they scored victory after victory,their manpower would deplete while Europe could throw more and more at them.And they still couldn't cut the head of the snake.Take their killing of Polish Duke Henry at Legniza and their subsequent attempt to intimidate his subjects who were fighting on in the castle:

"Then, impaling Prince Henry's head on a long lance, they [the Mongols] approach the castle at Legnica ... and display it for those inside to see, calling upon them ... to open the gates. The defenders refuse, telling them that they have several other dukes, sons of good duke Henry, besides Henry."

Last but not lest,the Hungarian army at Mohi,as I've said ,inferior in quality to a Western one,defeated and decimated,still made it out from a Mongol encirclement by a fighting retreat (which was one of the few instances an army did that to the Mongols without being cut to the man) and so,king Bela managed to escape.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

The thing is that they did come back for conquest in the 2nd invasion of Hungary and the 3rd invasion of Poland (1285,1287),only to be defeated en detail by these 2 countries and had to turn back with their battered armies.

Another thing that happenned is ,that even in the first invasion of Hungary ,the Mongols couldn't conquer ONE of the only 10 Hungarian stone castles.Western Europe had hundreds upon hundreds of stone castles.This combined with forested areea made the supreme Mongol weapon (mobility) useless.Another detail is the Battle of Mohi against the Hungarians,which the Mongols won but at great losses and with its outcome in doubt at a certain point .Crossbowmen and knights prooved effective against the Mongols but the Hungarians had very few of those 2 at Mohi unlike the armies of the Holy Roman Empire,France,Italian states,etc.When they improoved ,the Hungarians routed the Mongols 40 years later.

You will say that the Mongols conquered the Jin with formidable castles but their home base was much closer.Or the Southern Song,whose territory was much more forested that N China but here the Mongols had a solid supply base and Chinese foot manpower from N China.These resources weren't available in their Eastern European domains towards a Western conquest.
On top of this ,Chinese states had a central power base,Mongols went for the throat,captured the capital ,killed the leader,took the country.Europe was much more feudal,with hundreds of castles and leaders.The forrests,the mountains,the hills made a besieging nomad army like the Mongol one very vulnerable,especially if they were heavily outnumbered.Even if they scored victory after victory,their manpower would deplete while Europe could throw more and more at them.And they still couldn't cut the head of the snake.Take their killing of Polish Duke Henry at Legniza and their subsequent attempt to intimidate his subjects who were fighting on in the castle:

"Then, impaling Prince Henry's head on a long lance, they [the Mongols] approach the castle at Legnica ... and display it for those inside to see, calling upon them ... to open the gates. The defenders refuse, telling them that they have several other dukes, sons of good duke Henry, besides Henry."

Last but not lest,the Hungarian army at Mohi,as I've said ,inferior in quality to a Western one,defeated and decimated,still made it out from a Mongol encirclement by a fighting retreat (which was one of the few instances an army did that to the Mongols without being cut to the man) and so,king Bela managed to escape.

The mongols that returned were a shadow of the huge horde led by the full might of the unified empire under commanders like subutai.These were more like large raids.
And yes,the reason i said they couldnt do permanent conquest was adverse terrain,logistics and fortresses.I agree here.
But i disagree hungarian army was inferior,the hungarian cavalry was very very good,just a century and more earlier magyars were the terror of europe.Hungarian were probably the best horsemen in europe at that time.

 

[flamer84]

The mongols that returned were a shadow of the huge horde led by the full might of the unified empire under commanders like subutai.These were more like large raids.
And yes,the reason i said they couldnt do permanent conquest was adverse terrain,logistics and fortresses.I agree here.
But i disagree hungarian army was inferior,the hungarian cavalry was very very good,just a century and more earlier magyars were the terror of europe.Hungarian were probably the best horsemen in europe at that time.

By the time of the mongol invasion the Hungarians were fully Europenized and their steppe cavalry prowess was all but gone.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

By the time of the mongol invasion the Hungarians were fully Europenized and their steppe cavalry prowess was all but gone.

Hungarians had blended european mailed knights with light cavalry and hungary had very good light cavalry right till the 17th century(hungarian hussars) while also producing good heavy knights.Hungary was a major power of that era.Yes they didnt have horse archers in great quantity as such,but hungarian light cavalry was still very good.Mongols also encountered large numbers of crossbowmen in the hungarian army which were a threat.
Its not that when a nomadic civilization settles down it loses its cavalry tradition automatically,take the ottoman turks for example.It is eroded slowly but never completely wiped away.

 

[flamer84]

Hungarians had blended european mailed knights with light cavalry and hungary had very good light cavalry right till the 17th century(hungarian hussars) while also producing good heavy knights.Hungary was a major power of that era.Yes they didnt have horse archers in great quantity as such,but hungarian light cavalry was still very good.Mongols also encountered large numbers of crossbowmen in the hungarian army which were a threat.
Its not that when a nomadic civilization settles down it loses its cavalry tradition automatically,take the ottoman turks for example.It is eroded slowly but never completely wiped away.

Didn't they rely on Cuman light cavalry at Mohi but those defected due to their chieftain being killed ? I'd have to revisit that battle again but i remember that the crossbowmen were Italian mercenaries while the mounted knights were made up of mostly religious orders as many noblemen refused to come to the king's aid.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Didn't they rely on Cuman light cavalry at Mohi but those defected due to their chieftain being killed ? I'd have to revisit that battle again but i remember that the crossbowmen were Italian mercenaries while the mounted knights were made up of mostly religious orders as many noblemen refused to come to the king's aid.

Cumans didn't participate in battle..they left at the beginning of the campaign.Yes some nobles refused to come to the king's aid which weakened his heavy cavalry numbers.Bulk of the army was infantry -spearmen and crossbows.Cream of the hungarian army were mailed knights supported by light cavalry.Austrian troops supported them.Small numbers of teutonic and templar knights were there too which would have been an elite force.

 

[hoangsa74]

why fight the mongols in the open field when you have city walls to inflict massive casualties on them and if they somehow break into the city walls, make they fight in an urban combat terrain where they can't use their calvary in a full mode.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

why fight the mongols in the open field when you have city walls to inflict massive casualties on them and if they somehow break into the city walls, make they fight in an urban combat terrain where they can't use their calvary in a full mode.

They fell for mongol feigned retreat,and also outnumbered them by 4 to 1,so they were confident.Besides walls alone won't help against mongol siege machines..they destroyed city after city in the middle east,kievan rus and china.