Bangladesh Navy

[kalu_miah]

Forget AIP lets get a teardrop hulled sub first, the acoustic signature of the ming is too damn high. Any decent sonar can pick up its signature.

The only plus side for the Ming is that we are getting 2 at a cheaper price, instead of getting one s20, so these will be able to train double the number of sub operators. I just hope that Bangladesh Navy gets newer AIP models for the next purchases, because we do not need more than 2 training subs.

 

[Bilal9]

Training is at this point a priority. Once you train a good number of submariners then you can man them immediately with S20, improved copied of Chinese KILO class and even Swedish Diesel Gotland Class. All of these have teardrop shape, AIP; are a lot quieter and way stealthier than any comparable hunter-killer sub in the Bay of Bengal.

As discussed - SONADIA would be ideal for a deep draught sub-base as a deterrent to nearby Sagar Island in Haldia Bay near Kolkata. It will pay to study what subs will be based at Sagar Island and farther down the Indian Eastern coast near Vizag.

 

[Ideas_R_Bulletproof]

The only plus side for the Ming is that we are getting 2 at a cheaper price, instead of getting one s20, so these will be able to train double the number of sub operators. I just hope that Bangladesh Navy gets newer AIP models for the next purchases, because we do not need more than 2 training subs.

well, another very important reason behind getting more than one subs is to keep at least one operational all the time.... two is bare minimum.... still, there would be times when none would be operational due to maintenance, overhaul or whatever other reason..... 3-4 is more like a practical number.....

I think its more like getting to know what suits our waters..... before getting a sub, its not really possible to know what way we should follow.... a very important part would be to develop our ASW capability at the same time..... designing and equipping our escort forces would depend on critical info acquired from operating subs..... with no ship equipped with Towed Array Sonar (TAS) or Variable Depth Sonar (VDS), we can hardly call ourselves equipped with any decent ASW.... experience of operating subs would be absolutely critical.....

and as I always say, even a "lokkor-jhokkor" sub has to be found before it can be hunted down..... its a deterrent as long as its alive.... and did I say how important submarines are as intelligence-gathering platform?...... and did we consider the effectiveness of the oldie subs against southern neighbour with minimal ASW capability?

 

[Zarvan]

well, another very important reason behind getting more than one subs is to keep at least one operational all the time.... two is bare minimum.... still, there would be times when none would be operational due to maintenance, overhaul or whatever other reason..... 3-4 is more like a practical number.....

I think its more like getting to know what suits our waters..... before getting a sub, its not really possible to know what way we should follow.... a very important part would be to develop our ASW capability at the same time..... designing and equipping our escort forces would depend on critical info acquired from operating subs..... with no ship equipped with Towed Array Sonar (TAS) or Variable Depth Sonar (VDS), we can hardly call ourselves equipped with any decent ASW.... experience of operating subs would be absolutely critical.....

and as I always say, even a "lokkor-jhokkor" sub has to be found before it can be hunted down..... its a deterrent as long as its alive.... and did I say how important submarines are as intelligence-gathering platform?...... and did we consider the effectiveness of the oldie subs against southern neighbour with minimal ASW capability?

Bangladesh in next to years need to increase its Submarine force to around 6 and Frigates and Corvettes around 16 with around 24 Missile Boats and also start need to get Fighter jets For Air Force in really huge numbers

 

[Avisheik]

The only plus side for the Ming is that we are getting 2 at a cheaper price, instead of getting one s20, so these will be able to train double the number of sub operators. I just hope that Bangladesh Navy gets newer AIP models for the next purchases, because we do not need more than 2 training subs.

It aint gonna be that cheap. Old pieces of equipment are costly to maintain(both by the lack of spare parts and the frequency of overhaul). Plus its even more dangerous since they are old, it will become more accident prone. Look at indian navy, they have years of experience in operating subs in both war and peacetime, however they still encountered some major mishaps.

 

[kalu_miah]

For shallow waters do we need a smaller sub in the future like KSS 500A below?

‘Marine Week 2011′ Offers Insight into the ROK’s Current & Future Naval Warfare Trajectory (Part 2) | Asia Security Watch

"The KSS 500A will fill a similar mission profile to the Dolgorae Class, tabbed for special operations within littoral/coastal regions. It’s larger than the Dolgorae (37m length/510ton surface displacement, compared to the Dolgorae’s 25m length/150 tons), though still significantly smaller than the ROK Navy’s attack submarines. The KSS 500A will be far quieter than the obsolete Dolgorae, and with its new lithium-ion battery engine systems, should be able to reduce indiscretion rates compared to many current diesel-battery configurations.

The submarine can operate with a minimum crew of five, although ten will be standard for continual operation via shifts. It will have deployment capabilities for seven or more special operations forces, likely deployable without need for surfacing. This is seen as an important asset in conducting surveillance and insertion missions against North Korea in the shallow coastal regions of the Yellow Sea. The KSS 500A will also have a weapons compliment consisting of up to two heavy torpedoes, four light torpedoes, mines and/or vertically launched missiles.

The submarine is a believed test bed for the ROKN’s final phase in their attack submarine program, as many of the technologies planned for these submarines will likely see larger-scale integration on their phase three attack submarines. Current plans are for five to be produced, with construction set to begin next year.

As the ROK Navy begins shopping around their older submarines (in both building new type 209s for other countries, or potentially selling their oldest 209s), it will be interesting to see South Korea’s plans for it’s modern submarine fleet continue to evolve and grow. The introduction of the KSS-500A gives a good template for where the ROK Navy’s currently heading with their technology and hull designs."

 

[Avisheik]

Training is at this point a priority. Once you train a good number of submariners then you can man them immediately with S20, improved copied of Chinese KILO class and even Swedish Diesel Gotland Class. All of these have teardrop shape, AIP; are a lot quieter and way stealthier than any comparable hunter-killer sub in the Bay of Bengal.

As discussed - SONADIA would be ideal for a deep draught sub-base as a deterrent to nearby Sagar Island in Haldia Bay near Kolkata. It will pay to study what subs will be based at Sagar Island and farther down the Indian Eastern coast near Vizag.

Although I am down for any trainings for our submariners, I would like to point out that it is a waste of money to buy subs just for training.

1) Singapore, Malaysia, Vietnam all have teardrop hulled submarine and they did not buy any training subs. They trained on the subs they bought and training was provided by the country from where they purchased the subs. I have heard people rationalize the fact that subs may get damaged during training. I want to ask those people did the three countries mentioned above have any training mishaps so far? I don't think our sailors are complete imbeciles and will run around these subs.

2) Training on a soviet era sub will only teach you the how to operate technology from the past, it will not teach you how to operate modern subs. And when modern subs are bought, you will have to learn how to operate it again from scratch.

3)Song class sub, a normal diesel electric, teardrop hull sub, was able to sneak up on freaking USS kitty hawk, having one of these subs would have been enough for both training and deterrent. Having two subs and no deterrence completely blows my mind.

Sorry if this comes out as a rant, but I have to get this topic off my chest. To me, this feels like its a appeasement/egoistic/corruption filled purchase rather than an informed purchase

 

[kalu_miah]

Although I am down for any trainings for our submariners, I would like to point out that it is a waste of money to buy subs just for training.

1) Singapore, Malaysia, Vietnam all have teardrop hulled submarine and they did not buy any training subs. They trained on the subs they bought and training was provided by the country from where they purchased the subs. I have heard people rationalize the fact that subs may get damaged during training. I want to ask those people did the three countries mentioned above have any training mishaps so far? I don't think our sailors are complete imbeciles and will run around these subs.

2) Training on a soviet era sub will only teach you the how to operate technology from the past, it will not teach you how to operate modern subs. And when modern subs are bought, you will have to learn how to operate it again from scratch.

3)Song class sub, a normal diesel electric, teardrop hull sub, was able to sneak up on freaking USS kitty hawk, having one of these subs would have been enough for both training and deterrent. Having two subs and no deterrence completely blows my mind.

Sorry if this comes out as a rant, but I have to get this topic off my chest. To me, this feels like its a appeasement/egoistic/corruption filled purchase rather than an informed purchase

So one brand new s20 would have been a much better purchase. I made a guess that there is around $50 million over invoicing for these 2 Ming class, as their real purchase price should not exceed $150 million ($75 million), as opposed to the declared contract of around $200 million.

 

[Bilal9]

So one brand new s20 would have been a much better purchase. I made a guess that there is around $50 million over invoicing for these 2 Ming class, as their real purchase price should not exceed $150 million ($75 million), as opposed to the declared contract of around $200 million.

Yup large portion of $50 million going to Head of Govt. as usual. But that's a given.

Re: the Korean licensed copy of the Type 209 (Chang Bogo class), it is IMHO the most successful Asian version of the HOWALDTSWERKE Type 209. The type 209 is also being built in Turkish yards. Pakistan was going to get 209's but dropped exercising their option after a while for some reason.

The type 214 copy which is the next successor for the ROKN after type 209 is too big at 1700~2000 tons and is a smaller blue water boat. Type 209 at 1200 tons is ideal weight and endurance class for Bangladesh littoral brown water patrol usage. Indonesia got TOT to build Chang Bogos locally however theirs are going to be much improved compared to the 1990's ROKN Chang Bogo boats.

These boats (whether bought refurbished from KOREA or built locally) are probably going to be a better choice for BN than the Chinese SONG class boats because of a bit more reliable propulsion (MTU diesel engines / Siemens electric motors)and ECM systems. Plus we already have vendor relationship with Korean yards and suppliers because of BangaBandhu. It is worth mentioning that DAEWOO In December 2011 won a contract to build three 1,400-ton Chang Bogo-class submarines for Indonesia at a cost of $1.07 billion. They offer this independently without HOWALDTSWERKE involvement.

Wiki

Indonesia Submarine Purchase news

 

[Nike]

Yup large portion of $50 million going to Head of Govt. as usual. But that's a given.

Re: the Korean licensed copy of the Type 209 (Chang Bogo class), it is IMHO the most successful Asian version of the HOWALDTSWERKE Type 209. The type 209 is also being built in Turkish yards. Pakistan was going to get 209's but dropped exercising their option after a while for some reason.

The type 214 copy which is the next successor for the ROKN after type 209 is too big at 1700~2000 tons and is a smaller blue water boat. Type 209 at 1200 tons is ideal weight and endurance class for Bangladesh littoral brown water patrol usage. Indonesia got TOT to build Chang Bogos locally however theirs are going to be much improved compared to the 1990's ROKN Chang Bogo boats.

These boats (whether bought refurbished from KOREA or built locally) are probably going to be a better choice for BN than the Chinese SONG class boats because of a bit more reliable propulsion (MTU diesel engines / Siemens electric motors)and ECM systems. Plus we already have vendor relationship with Korean yards and suppliers because of BangaBandhu. It is worth mentioning that DAEWOO In December 2011 won a contract to build three 1,400-ton Chang Bogo-class submarines for Indonesia at a cost of $1.07 billion. They offer this independently without HOWALDTSWERKE involvement.

Wiki

Indonesia Submarine Purchase news

HDW-Turkiye consortium is selling their U-209 version too

well i think it will be the most wisest idea for Bangladesh Navy to bought a newly build and modernized U-209 than Song class, a modernized U-209 although they are not famous in name like Kilo class family but they got a potential to be a deadly hunter even in this era. Indeed U-209 is a reliable machine, even India U-209 doesn't have any problems with their technical issues and so on.

note: If Indonesia and South Korean programme success we will placed more orders for Chang Bo go class, i assumed it will be around seven more units as we had tight schedules to meet our modernization programme target .

 

[eastwatch]

I think, for a submarine starter Ming may not be too old or too bad for the BN, although I expected the purchase of Song class ones. However, the current Ming purchase may also mean that there will be future purchases of more modern ones. So, the dream does not end with Ming.

 

[Bilal9]

Here are a couple more diagrams and a model of the type 209/1200 and 1400 ton classes. There are a lot of variations in weight from 1200 to 1600 tons.

 

[aliaselin]

Although I am down for any trainings for our submariners, I would like to point out that it is a waste of money to buy subs just for training.

1) Singapore, Malaysia, Vietnam all have teardrop hulled submarine and they did not buy any training subs. They trained on the subs they bought and training was provided by the country from where they purchased the subs. I have heard people rationalize the fact that subs may get damaged during training. I want to ask those people did the three countries mentioned above have any training mishaps so far? I don't think our sailors are complete imbeciles and will run around these subs.

2) Training on a soviet era sub will only teach you the how to operate technology from the past, it will not teach you how to operate modern subs. And when modern subs are bought, you will have to learn how to operate it again from scratch.

3)Song class sub, a normal diesel electric, teardrop hull sub, was able to sneak up on freaking USS kitty hawk, having one of these subs would have been enough for both training and deterrent. Having two subs and no deterrence completely blows my mind.

Sorry if this comes out as a rant, but I have to get this topic off my chest. To me, this feels like its a appeasement/egoistic/corruption filled purchase rather than an informed purchase

Actually Malaysia has a problem with their submarine and can not dive

Yup large portion of $50 million going to Head of Govt. as usual. But that's a given.

Re: the Korean licensed copy of the Type 209 (Chang Bogo class), it is IMHO the most successful Asian version of the HOWALDTSWERKE Type 209. The type 209 is also being built in Turkish yards. Pakistan was going to get 209's but dropped exercising their option after a while for some reason.

The type 214 copy which is the next successor for the ROKN after type 209 is too big at 1700~2000 tons and is a smaller blue water boat. Type 209 at 1200 tons is ideal weight and endurance class for Bangladesh littoral brown water patrol usage. Indonesia got TOT to build Chang Bogos locally however theirs are going to be much improved compared to the 1990's ROKN Chang Bogo boats.

These boats (whether bought refurbished from KOREA or built locally) are probably going to be a better choice for BN than the Chinese SONG class boats because of a bit more reliable propulsion (MTU diesel engines / Siemens electric motors)and ECM systems. Plus we already have vendor relationship with Korean yards and suppliers because of BangaBandhu. It is worth mentioning that DAEWOO In December 2011 won a contract to build three 1,400-ton Chang Bogo-class submarines for Indonesia at a cost of $1.07 billion. They offer this independently without HOWALDTSWERKE involvement.

Wiki

Indonesia Submarine Purchase news

Type 039 also use MTU engine

 

[Avisheik]

Actually Malaysia has a problem with their submarine and can not dive

Type 039 also use MTU engine

It actually could dive. The story is that one of the two submarine developed defects in one of the parts. The ministry decided to wait for spare and repair parts before diving again. This incident happened in 2010, the subs are currently operational

 

[eastwatch]

Actually Malaysia has a problem with their submarine and can not dive.

Type 039 also use MTU engine

Well, Malaysia is a country rich with mineral deposits. It can certainly afford a few billion dolllar mistakes, but, a poor Bangladesh cannot.