Bangladesh Navy: Year 2024

[animelive]

Generally speaking, there are three types of ASW platforms:

1. Airborne, which includes helicopters and planes.
2. Surface units such as frigates, destroyers and coastal submarine hunters (BN has a couple of these).
3. Submerged units like diesel-powered submarines and nuclear-powered ones. Nuclear-powered ones are more for strategic use. Many nuclear armed states store and hide their nuclear arsenal in those things. What's better than keeping them in a hard to find place and a mobile fortress and knowing you can pawn whatever asshole whenever you want to? Diesel-electric ones are more tactical, and swifter than nuclear ones.

Now, the most important and difficult thing about hunting down a submarine is detecting it. It requires a considerable amount of time and resources to do so. It can also be a risky one depending on the assets you use. But once it is detected, hitting and sinking it becomes easy.

Airborne ASW platforms are the most popular means for submarine hunting. Some submarines have MANPADS installed, but such methods are thought to be ineffective.

No, radar cannot be used to detect a submerged submarine. Available technologies are based around means through sound waves and magnetic deviations. Submarine designers have worked hard to make them ever more silent in response.

A submerged submarine is a "hard" target. It's swift, stand still, dive through different temperature layers of the water in order to hide, strike down any noise make, use the bottom of the sea to hide and find another target. Yes, it is an extremely potent weapon.

As mentioned before, ASW aircraft are the most popular means to submarine hunting. They include both helicopters and aircraft. The reason for their popularity is speed. This advantage also gives the aircraft a quicker response time than the submarine.

Helicopters are slower and have much lower endurance than aircraft. But their chief advantage is that they can complete the job in a more methodical fashion. They can also hover above an area (something that ASW aircraft cannot do). Additionally, they can be carried on board by small ships.

On sensors, ASW helicopters are typically equipped with Magnetic Anomaly Detectors (MADs), dipping sonar, and sonobuoys. The latter two can come in both active and passive modes. MADs can detect submarines in a limited area, whereas dipping sonar and sonobuoys can enable the crew to listen to underwater sounds for long periods of time.

MADs are typically used as a probe and towed behind the helicopter or aircraft. Submarines underwater do cause slight deviations in the Earth's magnetic fields. This is based on the fact that a submarine is basically a large mass of steel and alloys concentrated in a primarily water environment.

Such deviations can be detected with the use of MAD. But this method can be very problematic given the increasing number of shipwrecks under the sea. Technology can help solve this given that the information being displayed can present very precise maps of such deviations.

The key drawback of MAD is range. The aircraft or helicopter must fly very low and slow to use it over an area where a submarine is suspected. This method may also require prior intelligence.

Sonar on the other hand is based around sound. The sonar device is basically an advanced microphone which is supported by a variety of emitters and receivers. These can additionally be supported by computer hardware and software to make them more potent. They can be used in both active and passive modes. Active means that the sonar device sends out its own beam, and listens for echos. Passive means that it only receives sounds from the target.

Now, detecting sound underwater depends on four main factors: 1) Salinity, 2) Pollution, 3) temperature and 4) pressure (which increases with depth).

It is these factors that can affect sound waves underwater such as bending them, bouncing them back or even slow them down.

Typically, a sound wave can bounce back from any smooth surface. Be it from an enemy submarine or rocks. Rocks can send sound waves in several directions.

Differences in water temperatures can also affect sound waves. Also called "thermal-layers". Some parts of the oceans have thermal layers so big, that entire nuclear submarines can hide in them. These also bounce back any sounds from any kind of sonar device, or even completely block the sounds from ever reaching the passive sonar.

However, there are layers of the oceans that are perfectly capable of transporting sound waves. This particular layer of the water has a top layer that has too high temperature and hence bounces back the sound waves. The layer at the bottom has a pressure too high and bounces the sound waves as well. By this manner, sound waves will be bounced back from one water layer to another over long distances. This is how whales communicate and travel over long distances. These layers typically lie from a depth of 800-2000 meters, but this ultimately depends on temperature and pressure (the two most key factors in submarine detection).

So how do they go about sound waves? It is measure by "gain" strength of the emission and frequency.

Simple rule of thumb: The higher the frequency, the closer the target. This enables the frequency easier to concentrate and hence a more accurate position fixation on the target.

For low frequencies, it's the opposite. Submerged targets are mostly identified through low frequency means. Meaning that the crew would get an approximate position of the target, not a very accurate one.

But "gain" is very important. Too much gain is never good since it can give off double targets as a result of bouncing back too strongly due to the signal going back down and up again. This may also give irrelevant targets such as fish, rocks and stupid people swimming.

Aircraft are much faster than helicopters. And have superior range and endurance. Unfortunately, their speed does not allow them to use a dipping sonar. When it comes to detection, it is limited to sonobouys and MADs. All ASW aircraft must take off from land unlike helicopters, except the E-3 Viking which is not longer used in ASW operations.

In terms of armament, ASW helicopter can carry guided torpedoes and dept charges. Some can carry light anti-ship missiles. ASW aircraft can carry a much higher payload of munitions and sonobuoys.

So what do all these imply for BN or even Myanmar Navy? It'd require one to know their environment and the assets they are operating very well. Now that is a lot of homework. Submarine hunting is a very complex operation where timing is everything. On one hand, the threat posed by a submarine cannot be ignored.

how potent are asw helis according to past records?

 

[eastwatch]

Someday, BD will be able to build its own Helicopter Carrier or Anti-submarine Warfare (ASW) Carrier in its own dockyard. A carrier like this weighs about 22,000 ton or less with many specialized features. However, BD cannot produce its own helis and specially those with ASW are hi-tech products available in the western countries.

BN needs at least a few of these ASW carriers in order to protect its outward bound commercial ships in times of tension in the BoB or Indian Ocean. But, whatever may be the necessity, the purchase of submarines must precede the induction of ASW carriers.

 

[Ideas_R_Bulletproof]

this is a page from Globalsecurity on BN modernization.... on the 4th para, they mentioned, "The Bangladesh Navy displayed some future projects like submarine and helicopter carriers."..... I just wanted to know whether anyone had seen those....

Bangladesh Navy

Got any links for it??PLEEZE!

true.... because this is 2013 and Myanmar is yet to get a sub..... we're talking about the future BN here....

BN don't even have enough helis to board the carrier ffs. we only use a handful of helis as of yet for our frigates.

 

[Ideas_R_Bulletproof]

thanks to @Loki for the great post!!.... I had been crying wolf of late here regarding ASW.... needed someone to address the potential threat....

anyway, getting a submarine first is of utmost importance.... as there's no better way to train on ASW than working with a real submarine.... we may not use the submarine in an offensive way, but the training the BN would get in hunting down submarines would be absolutely invaluable.... after getting a submarine, it would be like opening the Pandora's Box.... we'd surely start seeing our deficiencies.... and then start to patch those gaps....

 

[UKBengali]

Someday, BD will be able to build its own Helicopter Carrier or Anti-submarine Warfare (ASW) Carrier in its own dockyard. A carrier like this weighs about 22,000 ton or less with many specialized features. However, BD cannot produce its own helis and specially those with ASW are hi-tech products available in the western countries.

BN needs at least a few of these ASW carriers in order to protect its outward bound commercial ships in times of tension in the BoB or Indian Ocean. But, whatever may be the necessity, the purchase of submarines must precede the induction of ASW carriers.

We are looking at around the year 2030 when BD may be capable of constructing a helicopter carrier both from a financial and technological point of view.

BD already produces ocean-carrying commercial ships and has just built the 350 tonne Padma offshore patrol vessel. There are reports that BD will be producing 4-6 Type-056 corvettes of 1,300 tonnes displacement towards the latter part of the decade. So if all goes according to plan, we shall start seeing BD producing frigates in the early 2020s and hopefully destroyers in the late 2020s.

As for the ASW helicopters, these will be available from additional countries such as China and maybe Turkey by then.

 

[bd_4_ever]

jokes apart, I was serious about it, as there was a display at the annual arms fair on helicopter carrier.... you can even find that mentioned at Globalsecurity website.... if you don't have any info about it, you can say just that....

Alright. Point taken. Will have serious discussions with you from now on.


Cheers!!!

 

[Ideas_R_Bulletproof]

no hard feelings, brother.... I was just talking on the point...

Alright. Point taken. Will have serious discussions with you from now on.


Cheers!!!

 

[bd_4_ever]

no hard feelings, brother.... I was just talking on the point...

Kindly continue doing so.


Cheers!!!

 

[bd_4_ever]

Someday, BD will be able to build its own Helicopter Carrier or Anti-submarine Warfare (ASW) Carrier in its own dockyard. A carrier like this weighs about 22,000 ton or less with many specialized features. However, BD cannot produce its own helis and specially those with ASW are hi-tech products available in the western countries.

BN needs at least a few of these ASW carriers in order to protect its outward bound commercial ships in times of tension in the BoB or Indian Ocean. But, whatever may be the necessity, the purchase of submarines must precede the induction of ASW carriers.

Lets first use some AWS capable helicopters, gain the experience in using them to its potential and then if all goes well..get a squadron or so in long term. Once we reach that stage, a helicopter carrier can be a 'possibility', if not a necessity.

But then again, our navy knows best. Lets see what procurement line up ahead.


Cheers!!!

 

[Ideas_R_Bulletproof]

the submarine which is probably coming, will help train our forces in ASW.... nothing better than having an actual submarine to train hunting subs.... and helos have a short range.... from shore bases they won't be a potent force to patrol the sea.... fixed wing aircraft, with their longer range are much more efficient at that.... for ASW helicopters, we would require helicopter capable ships..... we have more helo-capable frigates and corvettes coming up within a year or two, and may be even destroyers in the longer run, which would possess helicopter hangers.... once those hangers are running, we'll find that we have 8-10 ASW helicopters operational at sea in no time.... but for that you need to put the whole flotilla to sea...

Lets first use some AWS capable helicopters, gain the experience in using them to its potential and then if all goes well..get a squadron or so in long term. Once we reach that stage, a helicopter carrier can be a 'possibility', if not a necessity.

But then again, our navy knows best. Lets see what procurement line up ahead.


Cheers!!!

 

[eastwatch]

Lets first use some AWS capable helicopters, gain the experience in using them to its potential and then if all goes well..get a squadron or so in long term. Once we reach that stage, a helicopter carrier can be a 'possibility', if not a necessity.

But then again, our navy knows best. Lets see what procurement line up ahead.

Cheers!!!

Please note the content of the post Nos. 32 and 34. No. 34 details about the need for inducting submarines before any ASW carrier is inducted. Since the job of a ASW heli is to locate submarines in the depth of a sea, therefore, a hard training is needed for the ASW heli pilot and technician, which is not possible if BN has no submarines to take part in those exercizes.

 

[bd_4_ever]

Please note the content of the post Nos. 32 and 34. No. 34 details about the need for inducting submarines before any ASW carrier is inducted. Since the job of a ASW heli is to locate submarines in the depth of a sea, therefore, a hard training is needed for the ASW heli pilot and technician, which is not possible if BN has no submarines to take part in those exercizes.

Fair enough. Lets see where it starts. When are we getting the Z-9s?


Cheers!!!

 

[Heart Angel]

i just hope bdn will get atlast 1 brand new frigate from China

 

[Zabaniyah]

The last part about my post was a bit misleading. The BN does have a number of research and survey vessels such as the BNS Agradoot (which is made locally).

So yes, they do know and understand the nature of the waters they are venturing in. In this case, acquisition of a submarine or two is rational. The only thing is to adapt to operating a submarine.

Additionally, one drawback of ASW planes is that by dropping the sonobuoy would generate noise which can be heard by the enemy submarine. But these things are inexpensive, and hence deployed in masses.

Sound is also a very unpredictable medium. Especially under-water.

 

[Zabaniyah]

how potent are asw helis according to past records?

I do not know of any past records of ASW helicopters hunting down hunter-killer submarines. The Iraqis don't even have much of a navy.

In theory however, they are quite potent. This method is not very old. Potency also depends on the quality and capability of the equipment on board the thing.

The dipping sonar - FLASH developed by Thales is said to be best in the world.

There was one exercise by the UK's Royal Navy with this:

HMS Northumberland, sailing as part of the UK’s Response Force Task Group on the Cougar 12 Mediterranean deployment, recently conducted advanced anti-submarine warfare (ASW) training with a friendly submarine.

The exercise involved the ASW surface ships trying to ‘sink’ the hunter-killer submarines, while simultaneously trying to avoid being sunk by their stealthy submariner counterparts.

Northumberland is one of eight Type 23 ships fitted with Sonar 2087, a towed array system that enables frigates to hunt the latest submarines at considerable distances and locate them beyond the range from which they can launch an attack.

Type 23 frigates also carry the Merlin helicopter that is fitted with the Thales FLASH dipping sonar. The combination of 2087 and FLASH makes the Type 23 a formidable antisubmarine warfare operator.

Royal Navy heralds Thales sonar as "the most potent of any navy" | Thales UK

The FLASH dipping sonar is the mainstay of most of the leading NATO military.

I do not know about Russian or Chinese dipping sonars in this regard.

But as said before, ASW helicopters have limited range and endurance compared to ASW aircraft like the P-8 Poseidon. And it is due to that gap as to why the Royal Navy is planning to acquire that aircraft.

It's not the size of the hammer that counts, it's how you wield it