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Bangladesh Air Force

i feel like the first aircrafts that may come out of this will still be a TOT based aircraft, judgin by lack of R&D and the amount of catchup to do...

We do not have a technical base. TOT is the only way to leapfrog... in this respect i think we need to partner up and the only credible partners are the chinese.

I read on the forum that the chinese offered their J7 mothballed production line to BD. Whilst i know it made no sense to build j7s now....i cannot help thinking it was a lost opportunity.... we would have gotten valuable knowhow in technology.

We need to start somehow.... i say buy the j10s in numbers and get tot. It would be a quantum leap for BAF.
 
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We do not have a technical base. TOT is the only way to leapfrog... in this respect i think we need to partner up and the only credible partners are the chinese.

I read on the forum that the chinese offered their J7 mothballed production line to BD. Whilst i know it made no sense to build j7s now....i can help thinking it was a lost opportunity.... we would have gotten valuable knowhow in technology.

We need to start somehow.... i say buy the j10s in numbers and get tot. It would be a quantum leap for BAF.

J7 technology was already old (1962 vintage) when they started producing them in numbers in China (late 70's, 80's) - because it was based on the Soviet MiG-21 F13 model (one of the very first early variants).
800px-Mig21F13web.jpg


Since the F13, there has been significant changes in the subsequent versions, PF, PFM, R, SPS, M, MF, Bis and finally culminating with the Bison with glass cockpit, which the Indians operate.

During early 70's we operated the MF type, which was far more advanced than the F13 aerodynamically, but also heavier and more expensive. It used to make up the bulk of the IAF fighter inventory until they started falling out of the sky, at which point IAF upgraded some to the Bison version, which looks just like an MF version, except far better sensors/electronics, bubble canopy, spine tanks and wing fillets.
Sheeju_mig21.JPG



The Chinese tried to mass produce the MF version, but they deemed it too expensive to make compared to their J7 model. One can honestly say that they milked the lightweight J7 design for all its worth, culminating in a version with a proper glass cockpit, a better radar worthy of semi-BVR launches and even a double delta wing (ours). Well done!

2299532.jpg


They got rid of the J7 line the same reason why countries like Pakistan got rid of their J7's, they are unbelievably outdated against even some basic fighters, like say the Rafale or the Gripen. Heck even Tornados or EFA would give that thing a run for its money. But J10 will be another story.

But us getting the J7/F7 production line would've done scarce little other than basic experience on bolting together planes and testing them, like some other countries are doing. Not worth it. If we have to do THAT, why not do it with a far more current design and way better capability?

Pakistan's JF17 design was tailormade for that country to replace their J7s/F7s. India didn't succeed so well replacing their MiG-21MF's with their Tejas LCA, and had to shell out too much to get Rafales at the end.
 
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J7 technology was already old (1962 vintage) when they started producing them in numbers in China (late 70's, 80's) - because it was based on the Soviet MiG-21 F13 model (one of the very first early variants).
800px-Mig21F13web.jpg


Since the F13, there has been significant changes in the subsequent versions, PF, PFM, R, SPS, M, MF, Bis and finally culminating with the Bison with glass cockpit, which the Indians operate.

During early 70's we operated the MF type, which was far more advanced than the F13 aerodynamically, but also heavier and more expensive. It used to make up the bulk of the IAF fighter inventory until they started falling out of the sky, at which point IAF upgraded some to the Bison version, which looks just like an MF version, except far better sensors/electronics, bubble canopy, spine tanks and wing fillets.
Sheeju_mig21.JPG



The Chinese tried to mass produce the MF version, but they deemed it too expensive to make compared to their J7 model. One can honestly say that they milked the lightweight J7 design for all its worth, culminating in a version with a proper glass cockpit, a better radar worthy of semi-BVR launches and even a double delta wing (ours). Well done!

2299532.jpg


They got rid of the J7 line the same reason why countries like Pakistan got rid of their J7's, they are unbelievably outdated against even some basic fighters, like say the Rafale or the Gripen. Heck even Tornados or EFA would give that thing a run for its money. But J10 will be another story.

But us getting the J7/F7 production line would've done scarce little other than basic experience on bolting together planes and testing them, like some other countries are doing. Not worth it. If we have to do THAT, why not do it with a far more current design and way better capability?

Pakistan's JF17 design was tailormade for that country to replace their J7s/F7s. India didn't succeed so well replacing their MiG-21MF's with their Tejas LCA, and had to shell out too much to get Rafales at the end.
tbh this design is decent, even for current times... current jets aren't fast by much compared to this, ceiling height is also comparable and the payloads is comparable to some light fighters... where it falls short is it's basic design... the nost mounted air intake leaves little to no room for good radar... the streamlining leaves less room for fuel, cockpit avionics and payload... taking all these into account a jf-17 is not bad for what it's worth... a j-10c or a mig 35 production line will go a long way for bd... well into the 50s, when hopefully an indigenous fighter jet could be created
 
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tbh this design is decent, even for current times... current jets aren't fast by much compared to this, ceiling height is also comparable and the payloads is comparable to some light fighters... where it falls short is it's basic design... the nost mounted air intake leaves little to no room for good radar... the streamlining leaves less room for fuel, cockpit avionics and payload... taking all these into account a jf-17 is not bad for what it's worth... a j-10c or a mig 35 production line will go a long way for bd... well into the 50s, when hopefully an indigenous fighter jet could be created

Well you have made very good points.

Fast is one thing, maneuverable is even better (corrected with the double-delta or cranked delta wings on the latest J7 variants supplied to us), and the Chinese WP-13/14 power-plant has become quite reliable and has boasted increased MTBF over the years - but these days, as even basic fighters have BVR (our fighter if created locally should have it), sensors and radar (meaning where to place them) becomes more critical. Granted sensors and radars themselves are getting smaller and smaller but even current 'cheap' radars like the Italian Grifo (or the Chinese KLJ-7 developed from the Russian Phazotron radars as used in the JF17) that some basic fighters use, has a minimum size. One cannot get away from it. AESA in the later variants is better, negating the need for mechanical steering. Grifo comes in many sizes and variants.

3-2012-4-grifo.jpg
squared_medium_squared_original_GRIFO_S.jpg
post-19-1364789400851.jpg


https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...galileo-improves-grifo-radar-new-applications

So you have to place the radar on the nose and have to move the engine intakes to the side (taking care of boundary control layer issues) and you end up with the Guizhou JL-9 (or FTC-2000 as it is called nowadays).

This line is still open and still being produced albeit in very small numbers, as I understand it. But compared to the F7 (J7) there may be aerodynamic issues because it is not as 'clean' a design. As you can see, intake backward, It is the same F7 we use. But now you have space to put the radar on the nose.

The PLANAF is planning to use it as a Carrier based trainer. They are still milking the J7 design!!

iu
iu

jl-9g_04.jpg
 
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Yes the DSI Intake was similarly adopted with the JF-17 design as well - as I recall, after deeming the boundary layer splitter may be sub-optimal with the initial prototype.

It may have been adopted as a new feature with the JL-9G/FTC-2000G variant?

However if you are going to put this in a carrier (with the fuel and missile weight) you will need far stronger legs...
 
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Yes the DSI Intake was similarly adopted with the JF-17 design as well - as I recall, after deeming the boundary layer splitter may be sub-optimal with the initial prototype.

It may have been adopted as a new feature with the JL-9G/FTC-2000G variant?
The comparison between FTC-2000 and FTC-2000G
c302ea51gy1fx7hsxd5prj20nv0l4n68.jpg
c302ea51gy1fx7hsugtnaj226h1cqhdv.jpg
c302ea51gy1fx7hsv0ojzj20vr0rchag.jpg
c302ea51gy1fx7hsyz8xbj21jj12g7wi.jpg


However if you are going to put this in a carrier (with the fuel and missile weight) you will need far stronger legs...
It will be JL-10.
JL-9H is just used for land-based training.
 
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The comparison between FTC-2000 and FTC-2000G
View attachment 536927 View attachment 536928 View attachment 536929 View attachment 536930


It will be JL-10.
JL-9H is just used for land-based training.

Wow!! Really appreciate your explanation. Exhaust, wingspan, tailplanes all larger.

Well guys - we have our new fighter program right there, maybe with ToT. :-)

At $6-7 Million a pop - this is very cost effective, probably even cheaper if assembled locally.

One last question, noticed that the exhaust is larger, so this may use a different engine than the WP 13/14? If not - then why?
 
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Wow!! Really appreciate your explanation. Exhaust, wingspan, tailplanes all larger.

Well guys - we have our new fighter program right there, maybe with ToT. :-)

At $6-7 Million a pop - this is very cost effective, probably even cheaper if assembled locally.

One last question, noticed that the exhaust is larger, so this may use a different engine than the WP 13/14? If not - then why?
FTC-2000G still uses WP-13 engine.
Low cost is always a chief consideration.
 
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FTC-2000G still uses WP-13 engine.
Low cost is always a chief consideration.

Yup - understood. This is going to be way cheaper than even JF-17. But then - also somewhat less capable all around. Which suits a different market to a tee. Whether for us or not - I will leave for everyone to comment on...
 
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Yup - understood. This is going to be way cheaper than even JF-17. But then - also somewhat less capable all around. Which suits a different market to a tee. Whether for us or not - I will leave for everyone to comment on...
It is sure that FTC-2000G is much cheaper than JF-17.

It may use the PESA radar of JL-10, if needed.
20170502163451_7634db2b1ed377766a56d9269909cea9_2.jpeg

img-aaa9785a1427153846622eb74daf85d6.jpg
 
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It is sure that FTC-2000G is much cheaper than JF-17.

FTC-2000G is estimated to have a price-tag of US$6-8 Million whereas each copy of JF-17 costs the Pakistani Govt. $20-25 Million (per Pakistani sources). I don't know if graft figures in this equation but it is likely.

The Gripen and J-10 are in another class and costs $45 million and $35 million each, respectively.

I have seen discussions from credible sources who say that the FTC-2000G is capable of lifting over 3.3 tons of external stores and ordnance, and can be configured to have various role changes.

The word 'light ground attack' and 'bang-for-the-buck' comes to mind.

85BD0128A858495D84A0ED7AE3FF189AC158D234_w1920_h1080.jpg
iu
 
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FTC-2000G is estimated to have a price-tag of US$6-8 Million whereas each copy of JF-17 costs the Pakistani Govt. $20-25 Million (per Pakistani sources). I don't know if graft figures in this equation but it is likely.

The Gripen and J-10 are in another class and costs $45 and $35 million each, respectively.

I have seen discussions from credible sources who say that the FTC-2000G is capable of lifting over 3.3 tons of external stores and ordnance, and can be configured to have various role changes.

The word 'light ground attack' and 'bang-for-the-buck' comes to mind.

85BD0128A858495D84A0ED7AE3FF189AC158D234_w1920_h1080.jpg
iu

No thanks.

Bangladesh is gonna have to grow up some day.

Might as well be now.
 
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Dont know if its related or not, in the past Indonesia and Yugoslav had made cooperation to build light fighter alas Yugoslav break before the cooperation started and then we are trying to acquire locally made fighter capabilities by buying design in Hawk series from BAE after bought at least 3 squadrons worth Hawk and design license, but we got duped severaly during western arms embargoe after what happened in Santa Cruz incidents. Just recently we are looking seriously to acquire capabilities to build fighter and this time with South Korea.

Indonesia Aviation industry is only got two decent partners who never left us in our dire needs, a friend indeed. One is gov. of Spain and their casa (althought they are currently merged with Airbus) second is German France consortium AIRBUS system.

To nurture defense industry especially Aviation industry one need decent and proven partner who never left you behind even in your darkest hour. We got valuable lesson during last decades
 
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