BAE’s US arm to shift Howitzer assembly here

[Echo_419]

It does matter to understand what we actually get and how this offer must be seen. Personally, I would have prefered a fast FMS route with full production outside of India too. We need these guns now, not somewhere in future, when all contracts are fixed, the production in India is set up and we absorbed whatever ToT we get. It's better to have them now and let Bharat Forge develop a fully indigenous system that can be added later, than wasting more time for political agendas.

The mountain crops need a lot of time to be raided so I think we can afford a delay of 2-3 years if we are getting some TOT

 

[sancho]

Sir you are missing the woods for the trees! Even if it is the most basic of ToT it is more than was pitched before.

Not really, as you said yourself, the initial deal did not included the requirement for the licence production and ToT. So they offer more now, but only to show a change, not to fulfill a requirement. The question then is, do we benefit from the offered ToT and what they offer, seems not to be that different from what we have seen in other tenders, where ToT was required. Basic stuff, nothing critical and unless that changes, the ToT issue between Indian and the US remains unchanged, while this is one step forward as said earlier.

They often complain the Indian side doesn't do enough to acknowledge their offers, they have, in someway, extended their hand for India to slap it away now because it is not precisely what they want would be foolish in the long run.

Come on, we ask for an apple, they give us an orange and we should be happy, since at least it is a fruit?
When the PM was in the US he asked for joint developments and productions, all our licence production tenders include critical techs, because we have that on offer from other sources, so why should we lower the benchmark for the US? Either they comply or they don't that's up to them, but as said above, that is not the issue in this case, since ToT was not a requirement.

Anyway, it was said the this deal had been stalled because of offset issues regarding BAE this "make in India " pitch by BAE is surely their attempt to move past these issues and thus I don't see much getting in the way of this deal now.

Exactly, it is a move to fix the offset problem and in that regard it's a wellcomed step, that they finally moved to fix this deal but nothing more, since minor offsets doesn't improve our industrial capability.

 

[Abingdonboy]

When the PM was in the US he asked for joint developments and productions, all our licence production tenders include critical techs, because we have that on offer from other sources, so why should we lower the benchmark for the US? Either they comply or they don't that's up to them, but as said above, that is not the issue in this case, since ToT was not a requirement.

That was hardly going to happen overnight and doesn't mean that every single deal India has with the US will follow this route (CH-47F, AH-64E, S-70B, MQ-4C etc won't).

A small step in the right direction is a step in the right direction nonetheless and I don't think it is reasonable to expect everything at once from the outset.

Exactly, it is a move to fix the offset problem and in that regard it's a wellcomed step, that they finally moved to fix this deal but nothing more, since minor offsets doesn't improve our industrial capability.

So we are pretty much in agreement on that front. I'm just going to say that this deal is more than was originally on the table and will benefit India broadly (even if you just look at the military benefits it brings).

 

[Foggy_Bottom]

@sancho @Abingdonboy . I've read your posts from time to time and I have a question for Sancho. Could you tell me, as I'm not much into the military side of things, how many NON- NATO partners have we made such offers to, as we've offered India?

I ask because we are very particular on who gets TOT, especially to what we feel is the best technology.

But with you the expectations seems to be either your way or highway.

 

[skysthelimit]

IIRC Bharat forge has developed(or bought out) a gun offering similar capabilities at a much lesser price.

Nope

Bharat Forge's 155 mm gun is Bharat 52 - weighs 14 tons

Their lightweight offering is Garuda 105 - weighs <1 ton, but is of 105 mm caliber. But it can actually be mounted on a semi

 

[vsdave2302]

Grab this offer with both hands!!

But they have put some price tag. They want munimum 450 to be purchased against our requirement of 145.

Buy TATA gun. It seems to be a very potent gun. Induct them in numbers. We can subsequently discuss what to do with the rest of guns. It sems that too much guns are coming Now a days. One of TATA, One of JV Mahindra, One on offer from L & T JV now this American Guns, 2 are on offer from Bharat forge.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Nope

Bharat Forge's 155 mm gun is Bharat 52 - weighs 14 tons

Their lightweight offering is Garuda 105 - weighs <1 ton, but is of 105 mm caliber. But it can actually be mounted on a semi

They're developing one with Mandus group from the US.

Probably a cheaper and cruder version, should order both.

 

[MilSpec]

I am hoping higher number of Arty guns will finally bring about a change in deployment doctrine of IA along the western border. It is quite dismal that heavy artillery has been not used to mitigate the transgressions of neighbor. If India does want to have lower threshold for tolerating pakistani transgression, it is imperative to have forward deployment of arty units. Procurement of more arty units will be the right direction that previous governments have deliberately undermined due to spineless foreign policy.

 

[greatone]

They're developing one with Mandus group from the US.

Probably a cheaper and cruder version, should order both.

Thanks that is what I was implying.
But too lazy to be arsed to provide the link

 

[Indo-guy]

Sir you are missing the woods for the trees! Even if it is the most basic of ToT it is more than was pitched before. One can't expect the moon and the stars from the outset and until these demands are met nothing goes forward. How does change come? Very often it is bit by bit not overnight revolution. The US is not going to turn their entire ToT policy with India around on a dime. This is a positive step forward and India should take it otherwise what kind of single is that sending the US? They often complain the Indian side doesn't do enough to acknowledge their offers, they have, in someway, extended their hand for India to slap it away now because it is not precisely what they want would be foolish in the long run..

Can you clarify if the gun is still going to be manufactured in US , then what TOT we are going to get ?
TOT To make wheels ???

Anyway, it was said the this deal had been stalled because of offset issues regarding BAE this "make in India " pitch by BAE is surely their attempt to move past these issues and thus I don't see much getting in the way of this deal now. .

You are omitting some crucial facts here ...

The offset issue was not the only issue that stalled the deal ...

The pricing was an issue too ..

and in fact the price has gone up from 697 million $ to 750 million $ ....

so how does that change anything ?

Do you think that Indian negotiators are stupid to take the ceiling price quoted by US congress to be an actual price ??? and how is that BAE did not clarify this before ?

The sugar quoting of TOT is nothing but to make this ' costly ' ' bitter ' pill palatable .

we need to see through the game plan ...

Can you clarify what crucial tech we are going to get under so called ' TOT ' ?

 

[Echo_419]

Can you clarify if the gun is still going to be manufactured in US , then what TOT we are going to get ?
TOT To make wheels ???



You are omitting some crucial facts here ...

The offset issue was not the only issue that stalled the deal ...

The pricing was an issue too ..

and in fact the price has gone up from 697 million $ to 750 million $ ....

so how does that change anything ?

Do you think that Indian negotiators are stupid to take the ceiling price quoted by US congress to be an actual price ??? and how is that BAE did not clarify this before ?

The sugar quoting of TOT is nothing but to make this ' costly ' ' bitter ' pill palatable .

we need to see through the game plan ...

Can you clarify what crucial tech we are going to get under so called ' TOT ' ?

I think we will get some TOT & not all of it

 

[Indo-guy]

Sir you are missing the woods for the trees! Even if it is the most basic of ToT it is more than was pitched before. One can't expect the moon and the stars from the outset and until these demands are met nothing goes forward. How does change come? Very often it is bit by bit not overnight revolution. The US is not going to turn their entire ToT policy with India around on a dime. This is a positive step forward and India should take it otherwise what kind of single is that sending the US? They often complain the Indian side doesn't do enough to acknowledge their offers, they have, in someway, extended their hand for India to slap it away now because it is not precisely what they want would be foolish in the long run..

actually you are the one who is mistaking trees for the woods !!!
No we are not expecting moon and the stars from outset .
But at the same time we do not want to be awed by the so called TOT which is there for namesake .
I thing it is very ridiculous argument ...that if you do not accept our offer ..we will be enemies .

Mind you this is pure business . we are paying through our nose for kind of products we are ordering ..so where does the question of " Hand of Help " comes ...and if the deal is not acceptable to India why it has to be taken as an act of slapping away ?

Since the US assembly line is getting closed ...they want cheaper alternative ...

are they doing some great service to India or serving their own interests by shifting assembly line to India ?

I think we will get some TOT & not all of it

TOT of what ?

that is what I am asking ?

Do you want to just feel good about what TOT is being offered ..without knowing actually what lies under the veil of TOT ?

Given their Supremacist thinking ...I am afraid that the American gods may be thinking that giving TOT of making wheels to India is a great honor because Indian still lives in stone age ...

 

[Echo_419]

actually you are the one who is mistaking trees for the woods !!!
No we are not expecting moon and the stars from outset .
But at the same time we do not want to be awed by the so called TOT which is there for namesake .
I thing it is very ridiculous argument ...that if you do not accept our offer ..we will be enemies .

Mind you this is pure business . we are paying through our nose for kind of products we are ordering ..so where does the question of " Hand of Help " comes ...and if the deal is not acceptable to India why it has to be taken as an act of slapping away ?

Since the US assembly line is getting closed ...they want cheaper alternative ...

are they doing some great service to India or serving their own interests ?



TOT of what ?

that is what I am asking ?

Do you want to just feel good about what TOT is being offered ..without knowing actually what lies under the veil of TOT ?

Given their Supremacist thinking ...I am afraid that the American gods may be thinking that giving TOT of making wheels to India is a great honor because Indian still lives in stone age ...

Well I was thinking some TOT is better than no TOT & the Bharat Forge gun is still years away from induction
Personal opinion though we should order these as a stop gap measure & apply whatever TOT we have on the Forge gun & then Induct it in large numbers

 

[Indo-guy]

Well I was thinking some TOT is better than no TOT & the Bharat Forge gun is still years away from induction
Personal opinion though we should order these as a stop gap measure & apply whatever TOT we have on the Forge gun & then Induct it in large numbers

There you may be wrong .

what if what is being offered under TOT is actually no use to us ?

so unless we actually know as to what is on the cards and how exactly it benefits us ..let us not get carried away with it .

Main issue which was the pricing .. is not resolved yet !

and as we know these guns will have utility mainly for MSC .

They can't replace boffors ..so we will need replacement for Boffors anyways .

These guns serve only limited utility to us . we need to take whole thing into perspective .

It is not like after this deal we will become self sufficient in artillery guns .

 

[Echo_419]

There you may be wrong .

what if what is being offered under TOT is actually no use to us ?

so unless we actually know as to what is on the cards and how exactly it benefits us ..let us not get carried away with it .

Main issue which was the pricing .. is not resolved yet !

and as we know these guns will have utility mainly for MSC .

They can't replace boffors ..so we will need replacement for Boffors anyways .

These guns serve only limited utility to us . we need to take whole thing into perspective .

It is not like after this deal we will become self sufficient in artillery guns .

Well I am sure new MOD is seeking TOT that will actually help us & aren't these guns & Bofors of the same caliber