Bad conditions for Muslims in India

[rajeev]

Per capita income = per capita GDP? LOL. Anyways, rest of your post I have discussed and you basically posted same thing all over again.

GDP/capita almost always equals GNI for poor countries India and Pakistan.

 

[SMC]

I think you read little more economics. Could help to understand what is going in your country and your neighbor's country. Regarding stats that are not based on Indian government claims of poverty, but World Bank's claim that states number of people living below 1$/day. Just by that account you are wrong because 25% of 1.2 billion is not 800 million.

You are misreading me here. I am not saying 25% of 1.2 billion is 800 million. I said that the 25% figure is indian interpretation of poverty and that in reality some 75% of indians (i.e. 800 million is 75% of 1.2 billion..) are living in poverty or poverty-like conditions.

Recently, World Bank changed the numbers and changed the poverty line to 1.25 $/day. 800 million number of poor people comes from people earning below 2$/day.

It is distinctly said in the article that 800 million live BELOW 50 CENTS a day. Nothing $2.

But for your information, you seem to far more interested in eradication of poverty in India. Is it so hard to look back at your corner, or is that banned in your country?

Sure, I would not like to talk about it. But the problem is that it's more often than not indians who start talking about poverty in Pakistan.

Yes, you seem to far more advanced. Drone attack reports showed only 7% hit the intended targets, rest were collateral damage aka people's lives lost. So I should trust what you are saying PA is not killing innocent peoples. Thanks for debating without facts.

Those are mistaken kills. Your state and parties are targetting innocent people. Notice the difference.

As you know, in India it is always a practice to kill Muslims and that is why population of Muslims in India has grown from Independence from 13.5% of population to 15% of the population.

You have got your numbers wrong again. There are roughly 140 million muslims in india. India's population is around 1.1 - 1.2 billion.

Whereas carpet bombing of PA and TTP explosions only moved the minorities from 10% of population to less than 1% of population.

You're dealing in quite a bit of personal attacks. Try avoiding that.

Anyways, it's 3% of population to start off. TTP explosions started only within last 2 years. Tell me the proportion of minorities at that time.

PA explosions? What explosions? They have targetted TTP, if you're trying to use that.

Pakistan's minority figure after partition has been pretty stable after the movement of different people during that time.

---------- Post added at 04:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:43 PM ----------

GDP/capita almost always equals GNI for poor countries India and Pakistan.

Like I said, the higher GDP per capita is negligable by the the GINI coefficients.

 

[SMC]

Instead of comparing GDP now, isn't it better to see the growth rates. No one can deny that such growth will create opportunities for every one.

I have lived in India through the 80s, 90s and the 2000s. There is no denying the fact that there is now a very visible change. Within one generation, things improved tremendously. From my own experiences, I know of countless cases where education has allowed families to move out poverty. Within my own family, a simple peon's son is now an engineer within Oracle and earns in a month what his parents must have earned in years. Most of my colleagues come from similar backgrounds. My own managers was a Muslim and his religion only mattered at id when we would be at his home for biryani.

I have never ever seen any sort of discrimination based on the basis of religion, caste, gender,etc in any of the places I worked with for the past 10 years. Ofcourse, you can argue that I may have been lucky in this respect. However it is the same feeling with all my friends and I do not feel special at all.

Give it some time, things are improving fast and such arguments and comparisons would appear silly in a few years time.

What you're saying is true. However, the problem is that indian people think that only india is developing and Pakistan is either not developing or going back in time.. Pakistan experienced 6-8% growth during Musharraf's time, trippling the economy size. You won't hear about it because of media biases. The growth has slowed down due to recession and terrorism, but as soon as there is a lull in terrorism, it will go back up.

 

[graphican]

Everybody seems to be worried about the state of Indian Muslims except the Indian Muslims themselves!

There are millions of propaganda videos on this issue, emerging both from India and abroad. Not worth of any discussion.

Thanks for laughing on these videos. You have told many things without making effort.

 

[graphican]

so easy to find such links.. As if the hate oozing from every pore of the body is not enough.. you wanna add fuel to the fire.. Great going.. I am not a peace promoter.. But feeding the fires of hate, when there has/had been enough of it for the past 6 decades doesnt seem to be fair... Looks like Armchair Generals do a lot of good by posting such links.. while the Jawan stands in the biting cold and gets his *** handed over by a similar Jawan on the other side of the border, while you guys cheer for every fallen soldier on each other's side amidst the wail of widows and the cry of kids.

Heaven awaits not for those who do such things

Cheers

Thank you too for smiling over these videos. It must have fun for you.. yaa?

How ridiculous it is that instead of moaning over the death of Indian Muslims, same Indians are throwing smiles in return. It explains why these incidents happen the first place.

 

[graphican]

Indian Muslims are peaceful and much better since independence. Please do not bring in Pakistan they are not bench mark for Muslims for others to follow.
There are more poorer people from other religions in India.

Sure, we never saw Hindu Massacure by the hands of Muslims of India since Independence, but Hindus never learned to live with peace. Who are other poor of India? Naxals? Yes its obvious what Naxals are upto. Good example!

 

[Bhaarat]

Graphican,

get off your high horse. Pakistan is much poorer nation with much more pathetic record of minority conditions. Before you point your finger at India, see the condition of your own nation.

 

[EjazR]

As per 2001 census figures and the Sachar report, the poverty Headt Count Ratio HCR among muslims was 31% (the overall was 25%, with SC/ST at 35%). We will have to wait till 2011 estimates to get an accurate figure which would show the truer picture which would defintiely should an improvement.

Compare this to Pakistan's estimate from the world bank and State Bank of Pakistan for FY08 and 09 estimating HCR to be between 30-35%. Source

In literacy according to CIA factbook and sachar committe report. Indian muslims have a literacy of 59% (national average of 65%, SC/ST 57%) based on 2001 census. While Pakistan is around 50% (2005 est.)

Even in terms of the other end of the wealth spectrum, IMO if a survey was done, the number of dollar millionares/billionares would be more among Indian muslims who are based in India compared to Pakistanis based in Pakistan. The richest muslim int he world is not an oil sheikh or king, its an Indian IT tycoon Azim Premji [Source]. And unlike wasting their wealth on building palaces and buying expensive cars, he lives a modest life and focusses on building the human capital in his coutnry and gives in charity for his community such as schools e.t.c.

Even if we are very pessimistic about the poverty among Indian muslims and optimistic on the Pakistani side; the best we can say is that its comparable with poverty in Pakistan (and infact better than Bangladesh which was part of Pakistan as well). But despite choosing to live in a Hindu-majority country after the partition, Indian muslims have been able to keep up economically with their Pakistani counterparts who have no problem of supporting another 900million citizens like the GOI has to take care of. Something to think about.

 

[SMC]

As per 2001 census figures and the Sachar report, the poverty Headt Count Ratio HCR among muslims was 31% (the overall was 25%, with SC/ST at 35%). We will have to wait till 2011 estimates to get an accurate figure which would show the truer picture which would defintiely should an improvement.

Compare this to Pakistan's estimate from the world bank and State Bank of Pakistan for FY08 and 09 estimating HCR to be between 30-35%. Source

It depends what you define poverty as. 800 million indians live on 50 cents or less a day. That's 75% of indian population. I would call that poverty. Additonally, as I have mentioned elsewhere, not too long ago, 17% of Pakistan's population was put at poverty line. So clearly different poverty lines are being used. It would be interesting to see what indian government defines poverty as vs what Pakistani government defines poverty as. I have little doubt that Pakistan uses a higher poverty line definition than india. Most indians who know what they're talking about know that poverty situation in Pakistan is better.

In literacy according to CIA factbook and sachar committe report. Indian muslims have a literacy of 59% (national average of 65%, SC/ST 57%) based on 2001 census. While Pakistan is around 50% (2005 est.)

Yes literacy rate is probably higher for indian muslims, but the problem is that literacy is useless if you're living in poverty.

Even in terms of the other end of the wealth spectrum, IMO if a survey was done, the number of dollar millionares/billionares would be more among Indian muslims who are based in India compared to Pakistanis based in Pakistan. The richest muslim int he world is not an oil sheikh or king, its an Indian IT tycoon Azim Premji. And unlike wasting their wealth on building palaces and buying expensive cars, he lives a modest life and focusses on building the human capital in his coutnry and gives in charity for his community such as schools e.t.c.

I do not know the person is richest or not. But even if he was, it doesn't matter because they are outliers. You have to look at the big picture rather than looking at individuals.

 

[SMC]

Graphican,

get off your high horse. Pakistan is much poorer nation with much more pathetic record of minority conditions. Before you point your finger at India, see the condition of your own nation.

You're not serious, are you? What is comparable to Guajarat Massacre, Operation bluestar and its consequences, Orissa killings, killings of muslims in Mumbai in 1993, etc, in Pakistan?

 

[Bhaarat]

You're not serious, are you? What is comparable to Guajarat Massacre, Operation bluestar and its consequences, Orissa killings, killings of muslims in Mumbai in 1993, etc, in Pakistan?

Well, the simple fact that minorities are still alive and kicking in India unlike in Pakistan where the minorities are fast vanishing. So, nothing in India is comparable to the situation of minorities in Pakistan.

Look at the religious demographics of India and Pakistan in 1947 and now, you will see that minorities have increased in India while they have almost disappeared in Pakistan.

 

[SMC]

Well, the simple fact that minorities are still alive and kicking in India unlike in Pakistan where the minorities are fast vanishing. So, nothing in India is comparable to the situation of minorities in Pakistan.

Look at the religious demographics of India and Pakistan in 1947 and now, you will see that minorities have increased in India while they have almost disappeared in Pakistan.

Dude, you can't be serious here. Minorities in Pakistan (their proportion) has remained stable after the emigration/immigration after partition. Keep in mind that movement did not stop at the day of partition.

Additionally, while yes there have been instances of killings of minority, it's nothing compared to what has happened in india to religious minorities.

 

[EjazR]

@Ahsan_R

The poverty figures were based on World Bank numbers. I agree that GoI may slightly intervene in world bank estimates to define poverty levels but so can GoP. These are extreme poverty levels where even regular nutrition is not possible, not just about being poor.

I have added a source for Azim Premji as well this was according to WSJ and Forbes Magazine and he is incidently a Gujrati Muslim although born and bought up in Mumbai. He was incidently the richest Indian between 1999-2005 as well

 

[MilesTogo]

This thread is very informative. I guess Indian Muslims need another Jinnah to come to their rescue. The problem is all the enlighted Indian muslims don't care anymore - some become Azim PremJi, some become Shahrukh Khan, some become APJ Kalam, others become Sania Mirza, and yet others become A R Rehman- except may be for the likes of Zakir Naik. Even he is not taken seriously any more. Looks like Indian Muslims are gradually becoming "Kafirs". They need a lecture or two from Zaid Hamid about Islam. They need to give up their hard working "Kafir" ways of earning a respectful living and start learning the divine ways of "Pakistani Muslims" to get to heavens quickly.

PS: I forgot to mention a new breed of Indian Muslims like Adnan sami...
I am not sure if likes to be called a Pakistani, a British or an Indian...

 

[Bhaarat]

Dude, you can't be serious here. Minorities in Pakistan (their proportion) has remained stable after the emigration/immigration after partition. Keep in mind that movement did not stop at the day of partition.

Yep, the movement has not stopped....even today. Even today sikhs or hindus come to India for shelter. Do Indian muslims come to Pakistan for shelter?

Additionally, while yes there have been instances of killings of minority, it's nothing compared to what has happened in india to religious minorities.

Thats not right. Its the other way around.