Azerbaijan: T-90SA, BMP-3M, Msta-S, TOS-1A

[Kajutyun]

See the comments of new Iranian president from earlier this month. They do not hide their hostile stance towards Azerbaijan.

Iranian presidential candidate: Azerbaijan has become a threat to Iran

I thought that you regarded all Armenian media as misinformation...nice to see that you changed your mind

While Armenians like to point out that Turkey might not be able to stand up to Russia, in the event that Azeri lines collapsed and were losing territory badly, we might have no choice.

By parity I do not mean that both sides are equally well equipped...I mean that the relative strength has been the same. Basically for the past 20 years and during the Karabakh war.

Azerbaijan cannot have a "desperate situation." With the exception of occupied Shahumian (you call it "Goranboy"), the present day Armenian controlled Nagorno Karabakh was the eastern frontier of Greater Armenia. In other words, worst case scenario is that Azerbaijanis fail to break Karabakh army lines and nothing happens. Armenia will not attempt to take more land (except maybe Shahumian, but since that area is so small it will not elicit a response from Turkey or anyone else. On the other hand, Shahumian was voluntarily abandoned my Armenians in 93 because it is geographically hard to defend, so idk if it's worth the effort).

"and the fact that military parity is maintained"

Give me an example of qualitative and quantitative parity.

As I explained to TheThreePashas, parity is a relative term. In other words, Azerbaijan is not any stronger compared to Armenia/Karabakh today than in the last 20 years and during the war. Know why? Because every time Azerbaijan acquires new toys, Russia sends us stuff . Like when Azerbaijan inked that $1.6 billion deal with Israel last year...Armenian and Karabakhi armed forces acquired Totchka-U and Smerch. And when Azerbaijan was arming itself for this year's parade, Russia sent Iskanders to 12nd (meaning Armenian Armed forces get older missiles).

In terms of quality, I can only tell you what I observe and interpret. I can see that suicides and "accidental misfires" are almost everyday occurrences in Azerbaijani armed forces, meaning either low morale or low discipline. I can see (and have seen) the Karabakhi frontline positions, which are extremely well entrenched and uphill from Azeris. So you will lose a lot of men in the initial assault. Add the fact that the area is HEAVILY mined, you have even more deaths.

Think about it. Had not of this been true, Azerbaijan would have attacked a long time ago.

 

[ASQ-1918]

You are just twisting the words to make a point, which is just nonesense. My question was very clear, and you are not really answering it. The arguments you make does not justify your claim at all.

"And when Azerbaijan was arming itself for this year's parade"

What is that supposed to mean? Contracts were signed in 2011 and 2012, deliveries was only delayed for some political reasons, and volume of the contract speaks for itself ($1 billion), which follows with options for more. We also learned that there is a separate contract for several batteries of Tor-M2E.

 

[Keshav Murali]

Shipbuilding, IFVs...etc.

Ships - yes
IFV - not exactly, you received design "help" from Hyundai Rotem, remember.

I am hoping that Turkey catches up to USA within the next decade. But you do need some tank design bureau like Saudis do.

 

[Kajutyun]

You are just twisting the words to make a point, which is just nonesense. My question was very clear, and you are not really answering it. The arguments you make does not justify your claim at all.

"And when Azerbaijan was arming itself for this year's parade"

What is that supposed to mean? Contracts were signed in 2011 and 2012, deliveries was only delayed for some political reasons, and volume of the contract speaks for itself ($1 billion), which follows with options for more. We also learned that there is a separate contract for several batteries of Tor-M2E.

I really don't know what you want from me. You asked me to give you examples of quantitative and qualitative parity, and I explained to you how Armenia and Karabakh maintain the balance of strength. Maybe "parity" is not the right word...English is neither my first or second language.

I mentioned the $1.6 billion deal because it was the most prolific, not because it's the only one I'm referring to. Did you seriously expect me to go back through APA archives and quote all the defense deals of 2013? I didn't mean to make it sound like weapons were purchased only for the parade. But on the other hand, that's probably the only purpose that they will serve because hostilities will not commence.

Maybe I'm still not understanding what you are confused about. Nothing I have said is ambiguous, everything is straightforward. What do you not agree with?

 

[ASQ-1918]

I was referring to the contracts for T-90, BMP-3 and artillery systems with Russia, the deliveries of which recently began (which coincides with this years military parade), and I tought you were referring to that. And yes it kinda sounded like that.

Anyway, I don't see a point with continuing this discussion.

 

[Azeri440]

I thought that you regarded all Armenian media as misinformation...nice to see that you changed your mind



By parity I do not mean that both sides are equally well equipped...I mean that the relative strength has been the same. Basically for the past 20 years and during the Karabakh war.

Azerbaijan cannot have a "desperate situation." With the exception of occupied Shahumian (you call it "Goranboy"), the present day Armenian controlled Nagorno Karabakh was the eastern frontier of Greater Armenia. In other words, worst case scenario is that Azerbaijanis fail to break Karabakh army lines and nothing happens. Armenia will not attempt to take more land (except maybe Shahumian, but since that area is so small it will not elicit a response from Turkey or anyone else. On the other hand, Shahumian was voluntarily abandoned my Armenians in 93 because it is geographically hard to defend, so idk if it's worth the effort).



As I explained to TheThreePashas, parity is a relative term. In other words, Azerbaijan is not any stronger compared to Armenia/Karabakh today than in the last 20 years and during the war. Know why? Because every time Azerbaijan acquires new toys, Russia sends us stuff . Like when Azerbaijan inked that $1.6 billion deal with Israel last year...Armenian and Karabakhi armed forces acquired Totchka-U and Smerch. And when Azerbaijan was arming itself for this year's parade, Russia sent Iskanders to 12nd (meaning Armenian Armed forces get older missiles).

In terms of quality, I can only tell you what I observe and interpret. I can see that suicides and "accidental misfires" are almost everyday occurrences in Azerbaijani armed forces, meaning either low morale or low discipline. I can see (and have seen) the Karabakhi frontline positions, which are extremely well entrenched and uphill from Azeris. So you will lose a lot of men in the initial assault. Add the fact that the area is HEAVILY mined, you have even more deaths.

Think about it. Had not of this been true, Azerbaijan would have attacked a long time ago.

equally well equipped ?
Azerbaijan left you behind long ago when oil boom hit
the only reason Azerbaijan isn't attacking is because of Russia
you and I perfectly know your survival depends on Russia

 

[-SINAN-]

IFV - not exactly, you received design "help" from Hyundai Rotem, remember.

The "help" you pointed is not for IFV but MBT.

I am hoping that Turkey catches up to USA within the next decade. But you do need some tank design bureau like Saudis do.

As far as i know we already got one.

 

[Worf]

Ships - yes
IFV - not exactly, you received design "help" from Hyundai Rotem, remember.

Would you like to share what "help" Turkey received from Hyundai Rotem regarding IFV's?
Certainly Turkey has received technical assistants when developing the Altay main battle tank, but not for IFV's.

I am hoping that Turkey catches up to USA within the next decade. But you do need some tank design bureau like Saudis do.

So we can build first class Tanks like the Saudis do?

*silence*

Saudis make tanks!?

 

[Keshav Murali]

Would you like to share what "help" Turkey received from Hyundai Rotem regarding IFV's?
Certainly Turkey has received technical assistants when developing the Altay main battle tank, but not for IFV's.


So we can build first class Tanks like the Saudis do?

*silence*

Saudis make tanks!?

Saudis don't make tanks. They use their money to hire people who can, and fail. But you don't have the kind of money they do. Sorry I meant Jordan not Arabia. I keep mixing ME countries. King Abdullah tank design bureau came up with low profile turret and good upgrades, they are supposed to be designing new tanks.

It seems my sources are bad regarding IFV, the provider has been circulating false information. But give me some data on your IFV if you please sir

Altay should be taken as a step towards a new, improved MBT. Turkey deserves an applause for designing Altay better than South Koreans did with super costly K2. It is worth mentioning that while Altay has nearly NATO-level heavy side armour, K2 has poorly armoured sides.

The "help" you pointed is not for IFV but MBT.

Answered in my previous post to Topal. But I'd be much obliged if you can provide images or details of your IFV.

Thanks.

 

[-SINAN-]

Answered in my previous post to Topal. But I'd be much obliged if you can provide images or details of your IFV.

Thanks.

Tulpar 35-40 tonnes IFV

Official Introduction Video.

You can see the interior of Tulpar in this video.

For more info:http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey-defence/249894-otokar-reveils-several-new-products-incl-30ton-ifv.html

 

[gr8vision]

As I explained to TheThreePashas, parity is a relative term. In other words, Azerbaijan is not any stronger compared to Armenia/Karabakh today than in the last 20 years and during the war. Know why? Because every time Azerbaijan acquires new toys, Russia sends us stuff . Like when Azerbaijan inked that $1.6 billion deal with Israel last year...Armenian and Karabakhi armed forces acquired Totchka-U and Smerch. And when Azerbaijan was arming itself for this year's parade, Russia sent Iskanders to 12nd (meaning Armenian Armed forces get older missiles).

There doesn't seem to be any real "parity" or military balance - Azerbaijan has clear quantitative and qualitative superiority, in the number and type of weapons. However, according to many experts, due to geography and other consideration, any liberation campaign would be very costly right now for Azerbaijan, hence it seems to be waiting, thinking that time is on its side.

Iskander's are not Armenia's property. They are stationed on a Russian military base (which it has all rights over till 2044), and thus is Russian property operated by Russian citizens. Moreover, the Iskander's are not even aimed at or against Azerbaijan: 1) Azerbaijan is clearly not planning to attach Republic of Armenia, and 2) they are a response to American deployments and radar in Turkey. If Russia would want to scare Azerbaijan with short- and medium-range missiles, it would station them in Daghestan, as well as in South Ossetia - not to mention dispatch Caspian flotilla closer to Baku.

Also, keep in mind that Iskander-M's range is 400 KM, whereas Baku is 513 km away from Gyumri, Armenia (which is on the border with Turkey). So whom will these advanced missiles threaten in Baku, the capital of Azerbaijan?

Then, Armenia has how many Smerch systems? 12. How many does Azerbaijan have? At least 30, possibly 36. Plus Azerbaijan has almost two hundred other MLRS systems - seems to be much more than what Armenia has (by Armenia I include and mean everything it stations on Azerbaijan's occupied territories as well).

And finally, how can one compare the brand-new and advanced weapons Azerbaijan got, such as from Israel, including air-defense weapons, to the mostly older and used (but still very potent) weapons Armenia gets?

In terms of quality, I can only tell you what I observe and interpret. I can see that suicides and "accidental misfires" are almost everyday occurrences in Azerbaijani armed forces, meaning either low morale or low discipline. I can see (and have seen) the Karabakhi frontline positions, which are extremely well entrenched and uphill from Azeris. So you will lose a lot of men in the initial assault. Add the fact that the area is HEAVILY mined, you have even more deaths.

Soldier and officers' losses occur in Armenian army as well, and in relative numbers are basically the same as in Azerbaijan (or U.S. for that matter). I include information from mostly Armenian sources admitting that much.

"Gevorg Kostanian said that according to official data 26 soldiers committed suicide, were killed by fellow servicemen, or died from diseases or in various accidents in 2011, down from 43 such cases in 2010.

The 10 other soldiers were shot dead in skirmishes with Azerbaijani forces." see: rferl.org/content/armenia_army_deaths_down_in_2011/24458025.html


According to official statistics, in 2012 the death roll in the army increased in comparison to the previous year. In 2010, 44 deaths were registered as a result of 25 incidents, in 2011, there were 39 deaths as a result of 26 incidents, and in 2012 there were 46 cases of death. - See more at: hra.am/en/point-of-view/2013/01/08/rights2#sthash.r42ddNE1.dpuf

 

[gr8vision]

You are just twisting the words to make a point, which is just nonesense. My question was very clear, and you are not really answering it. The arguments you make does not justify your claim at all.

"And when Azerbaijan was arming itself for this year's parade"

What is that supposed to mean? Contracts were signed in 2011 and 2012, deliveries was only delayed for some political reasons, and volume of the contract speaks for itself ($1 billion), which follows with options for more. We also learned that there is a separate contract for several batteries of Tor-M2E.

If I may - there is actually no evidence that deliveries were delayed. It seems to be a media speculation. Contracts were signed and finalized only in 2012 (maybe even in December), and it's only June 2013. It takes months to produce, assemble, insure, inspect, ship and deliver hundreds of brand-new hardware pieces. Russian Army even doesn't have some of the modifications of the weapons that Azerbaijan got - all that takes a lot of time to negotiate and get done, to add all those options (such as Shtora).

 

[gr8vision]

Azerbaijan cannot have a "desperate situation." With the exception of occupied Shahumian (you call it "Goranboy"), the present day Armenian controlled Nagorno Karabakh was the eastern frontier of Greater Armenia. In other words, worst case scenario is that Azerbaijanis fail to break Karabakh army lines and nothing happens. Armenia will not attempt to take more land (except maybe Shahumian, but since that area is so small it will not elicit a response from Turkey or anyone else. On the other hand, Shahumian was voluntarily abandoned my Armenians in 93 because it is geographically hard to defend, so idk if it's worth the effort).

Shahumian/Goranboy was never part of NKAO/NK. Also, it is not occupied - it's a region of Azerbaijan. How can Azerbaijan occupy itself? Then should Azerbaijanis refer to Zangezur (Syunik marz in Armenian) as occupied region?

Also, Armenians did not voluntarily leave it - they had to. I hope you understand that words like "voluntarily left a whole district" is nonsense in military theory or practice, at least in the West.

Meanwhile, Armenians are not occupying all of former NKAO region of Azerbaijan - for example, part of Khojavend district (Martuni) is not occupied by Armenia and is controlled by Azerbaijan.

Finally, could you prove your point about the eastern border of Greater Armenia? Aside from the fact that it existed for only a few decades at its maximum extent, and its hold over Karabakh (then part of Caucasian Albania) is quite debated to put it mildly. But equally important, the Greater Armenia was not even ruled by ethnic Armenians. The entire royal dynasty, including Tigranes the Great, were not ethnically Armenian, and were instead Iranic, of Persian and Parthian ancestry. This undeniable fact is evident not just from the research of modern *Armenian* researchers, but also the "father of Armenian history" Movses from Khorene (Movses Khorenatsi). Indeed, the state called Armenia was not ruled by ethnically Armenian dynasties until 428 AD (by which time it was not even independent).

Indeed, Tigranes didn't even speak Armenian language (which didn't even exist at the time - the "ancient Armenian", called Grabar, like its alphabet, was invented around 5th century AD). Anyhow, this is too much ancient history for a military forum - I just love it and have been fortunate to study and read in some of the top libraries and universities in the world.

BTW, here are some more Armenian sources on non-combat losses in recent years from suicides, hazing, and various errors.

news.am/eng/news/128393.html
news.am/eng/news/154833.html
news.am/eng/news/154151.html
news.am/eng/news/154141.html
news.am/eng/news/154070.html
news.am/eng/news/136512.html
news.am/eng/news/136187.html
news.am/eng/news/133742.html
news.am/eng/news/130829.html

 

[gr8vision]

T90 is nice but I honestly think Azerbaijan should wait a little and switch to NATO standards with Altay. We could jointly produce Altay in Azerbaijan, we could customize it for Azerbaijan's needs.

It would take Turkey probably two years at best, and 3-4 most likely, to finish all the testing and start serial production, at which time it would first need to supply its own army, before it can export it.

Then, aren't several major parts in Altay produced by EU countries and thus subject to their export control?

 

[gr8vision]

You are honestly the easiest Turk to argue with because you are so ignorant of history. Pick up a book, or search the internet for the public opinion of Turkey under the Demirel administration.

Please provide a reference and explain what do you mean. Are you alleging that Turkish public was somehow opposed to helping Azerbaijan under Demirel in 1992-1994? That does contravene absolutely all evidence we have at hand. We should however keep in mind that Turkey in 1992-1994 was not nearly as powerful and influential (or bold) as Turkey in 2013-onwards. Twenty years made a big difference, Kajutyun: not only in economy or international rhetoric, but militarily speaking. Today Turkey and Azerbaijan actually have legalize on paper their military alliance and cooperation, which while smaller and more modest than what Armenia has with Russia, is at the same time enough to prove any point.

Everyone might also want to read these sample sources:

books.google.com.tr/books?id=2wJAFTAsT50C&pg=PA14#v=onepage&q&f=false
acus.org/new_atlanticist/ankara-and-baku-much-closer-ties
panarmenian.net/eng/world/interviews/43120/
academia.edu/1801844/Religiously_Inspired_Soft_Power_in_Turkeys_Relations_with_Azerbaijan