Average Pakistani Soldier

[EagleEyes]

Shoot!! and here I thought that my years in the infantry would help

cheers

It does. If you do that you get straight to the top.

 

[dabong1]

From what i have been told by pakistani soldiers the average pakistani jawaan is better then his indian counterpart but the indian army officers are better then there pakistani number.

 

[Keysersoze]

From what i have been told by pakistani soldiers the average pakistani jawaan is better then his indian counterpart but the indian army officers are better then there pakistani number.

Silly statement....It is in the nature of Other ranks to call their own officers names. And also to boast of their prowess in battle compared to their opponents.
Think about it how would they know how good a opposing officer is?

 

[Contrarian]

From what i have been told by pakistani soldiers the average pakistani jawaan is better then his indian counterpart but the indian army officers are better then there pakistani number.

That is something i have heard too by whom, i dont remember, but its crap.
How would they know each others capabilities and judge them.

 

[kidwaibhai]

this is old pakistani army propoganda to get its jawans motivated. they dont have nay sound facts to prove this.

 

[blain2]

this is old pakistani army propoganda to get its jawans motivated. they dont have nay sound facts to prove this.

This is not a Pakistani propaganda...let me provide a little bit of history around this. The oft-quoted Indian statement that "Pakistanis considered themselves equal to 10 Indian soldiers" has never been part of the Pakistani military folklore.

There was some underestimation of Indian military capabilities prior to the 1971 war due to the above-average performance of own and less than average performance of Indian units in the Rann area prior to the War in 1965. I have never heard of any Pakistani officer or jawan being told that he was equal to 10 Indians....during the East Pakistan crisis, some Pakistani officers may have used hyperbolic statements to shore up morale but this propaganda has never been used in any Pakistani Army training school or unit. This is the fact of the matter.

Now let me address a general point. Each Army considers itself and its officers and ORs as the best! This is as a result of training that they have undergone and is usually due to not knowing what other side is upto in terms of training and morale.

Every single Army in the world is guilty of this and Pakistan Army is no exception. I can tell you that experience, discipline and morale-wise at least, Pakistan Army is right up there. We have some excellent units, officers and men that can be placed right at the top against any other unit in the world and they will hold their own...on the other hand, we do have financial limitations as well as educational challenges that need to be catered to. However at least in the neighborhood, we are not the only ones with these challenges.

Training is hard in regimental and training schools in the PA. This is not an indication that people in the PA take the IA lightly or consider them to be inferior in any way. There is an ongoing conflict in Siachen and the past four wars keep our officers and troops grounded to reality.

 

[Quwa]

There is a strong push to modernize infantry equipment in the entire army, that includes paramilitary, rangers and rear-line troops as well. For instance every new image of Pakistan Army regulars I see - including not on the net - I see kevlar bullet proof vests, ammunition/supply(?) jackets, new-style kevlar helmets and new camouflages being worn. Besides that, they are planning to phase out the G-3 with new 5.56mm rifles. These changes are not limited to the regulars & SSG, they also include the 500k para-military and rear line troops. Adapting to massive equipment change also requires a lot of new training doctrines which would and are being added or revised into the Army training program. Political issues have also had their influence on the Army, for instance I recall:

I have met with junior Pakistan Army officers, and IMO their line of thinking is inclined towards innovation; self reliance in not relying on others; accepting that very adverse conditions exist and facing them is the best way to solve them; and that their enemies are superior in many aspects. The effects of the 1990s sanctions and Global War on Terror has given education thinkers in the Pakistan Military a lot to discuss and plan for.

One cannot expect the whole of the Pakistan Army to be re-equipped within less than a year. IMO having all or most of the regulars equipped with NATO standard bullet proof vests, helmets and other equipment requires some revision on how personnel are trained. I think there is a difference in how one would approach their enemy if they have body armour and a smaller caliber rifle. A strong majority of the PA regulars I have seen wearing kevlar are either officers or younger NCOs.

However as financial limitations continue to decrease (hopefully) and Army given due time in the form of years - I imagine the PA would be very different from what it is today and in the past. In fact, I remember Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz once saying that all Pakistani troops would be equipped with kevlar protection and have relatively easy access to night vision. Add this to many interesting Pakistani projects under development such as IBMS, C4I, etc.

If the current rate of change maintains or catches momentum as it currently is - the average Pakistani regular would be a lot different than the one today.

 

[PakSniper]

I believe awhile ago PA acquired 50 PK-8 assault rifles (POF) for evaluation, HK and another company is in competition of who sill supply the army in the future along with 5.56mm (NATO standard) bullets which we will soon start producing, they might not kill the person right away as the 7.56mm might but the 5.56mm provides stopping power if a vital organ is hit and cause a logistical nightmare than if the person was shot dead. But for personal state I still choose the 7.56mm.

But considering that we have a long history with HK (Germany) we should look at the G-36 which is a standard issued rifle to the German infantry.

We can get the G-36E for the stand Pakistan soldier, and use the G-36C for special ops. It has a very good 1.5X telescope below and 1X red-dot sight just sitting above (export version for German military it's a 3X magnifying scope). Another nice advantage is that it uses plastic cartridge which weigh less and can be clipped together about 2-3 allowing fast changing during operations. Sadly, we didn't acquire this except we received M-4 from US for our paramilitary forces (reason I say sadly is cause American M-16-4s have had various problems including maintaining and prone to malfunctioning and jamming in tough conditions).

 

[Keysersoze]

There is a strong push to modernize infantry equipment in the entire army, that includes paramilitary, rangers and rear-line troops as well. For instance every new image of Pakistan Army regulars I see - including not on the net - I see kevlar bullet proof vests, ammunition/supply(?) jackets, new-style kevlar helmets and new camouflages being worn. Besides that, they are planning to phase out the G-3 with new 5.56mm rifles. These changes are not limited to the regulars & SSG, they also include the 500k para-military and rear line troops. Adapting to massive equipment change also requires a lot of new training doctrines which would and are being added or revised into the Army training program. Political issues have also had their influence on the Army, for instance I recall:

I have met with junior Pakistan Army officers, and IMO their line of thinking is inclined towards innovation; self reliance in not relying on others; accepting that very adverse conditions exist and facing them is the best way to solve them; and that their enemies are superior in many aspects. The effechts of the 1990s sanctions and Global War on Terror has given education thinkers in the Pakistan Military a lot to discuss and plan for.

One cannot expect the whole of the Pakistan Army to be re-equipped within less than a year. IMO having all or most of the regulars equipped with NATO standard bullet proof vests, helmets and other equipment requires some revision on how personnel are trained. I think there is a difference in how one would approach their enemy if they have body armour and a smaller caliber rifle. A strong majority of the PA regulars I have seen wearing kevlar are either officers or younger NCOs.

However as financial limitations continue to decrease (hopefully) and Army given due time in the form of years - I imagine the PA would be very different from what it is today and in the past. In fact, I remember Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz once saying that all Pakistani troops would be equipped with kevlar protection and have relatively easy access to night vision. Add this to many interesting Pakistani projects under development such as IBMS, C4I, etc.

If the current rate of change maintains or catches momentum as it currently is - the average Pakistani regular would be a lot different than the one today.

I find it very interesting that you talk of doctrinal changes to training due to body armour and ammunition changes. I am wondering what kind of differences this can entail.
I can't see that there should be any major changes in training due to body armour or 5-56 ammo unless there is faulty thinking in the current training program.
I have used pretty much all of the above equipment, and it provides positives and negatives (mostly positives). But the base training was the same whether or not the equipment was there.

 

[Quwa]

I find it very interesting that you talk of doctrinal changes to training due to body armour and ammunition changes. I am wondering what kind of differences this can entail.
I can't see that there should be any major changes in training due to body armour or 5-56 ammo unless there is faulty thinking in the current training program.
I have used pretty much all of the above equipment, and it provides positives and negatives (mostly positives). But the base training was the same whether or not the equipment was there.

I can't say really, I just figured that some major differences in training would occur with provision of body armor and ammunition changes. I am probably wrong on this one.

 

[Keysersoze]

Actually the one thing I have noted (admittedly through pictures on sites such as this one) is that Pak soldier tend to use a very basic webbing system. (The Sf don't seem to have this issue.) We were always trained to carry 24 hours worth of food, water and ammunition in our webbing. (with additional material carried in our larger packs.) This would ease strain upon logistics and allow a little more operational freedom.

Does anyone know what kind of field rations are issued?

Oh the biggest improvement will come from the radio purchases made last year (5000 units) comms will make the difference there.

 

[Keysersoze]

Another issue has just struck me.

Currently the PA uses a 7-62 rifle and 7-62 machine gun (the excellent Mg-3). With the advent of a newer 5-56 weapon this might complicate the issue further in the case of logistics. (assuming the MG-3 will stay in service).

 

[PakSniper]

Another issue has just struck me.

Currently the PA uses a 7-62 rifle and 7-62 machine gun (the excellent Mg-3). With the advent of a newer 5-56 weapon this might complicate the issue further in the case of logistics. (assuming the MG-3 will stay in service).

I doubt their will be logistical problems remember they aren't replacing the Machince guns or other 7.62mm weapons just standard issued rifles. Our police force and other border forces, etc still use the 7.62mm, including our tank force, APCs and other ACs which still use the 7.62mm coaxial machine gun.

 

[Keysersoze]

I doubt their will be logistical problems remember they aren't replacing the Machince guns or other 7.62mm weapons just standard issued rifles. Our police force and other border forces, etc still use the 7.62mm, including our tank force, APCs and other ACs which still use the 7.62mm coaxial machine gun.

It's still going from one ammunition type to two types. that equals a greater logistical load.
It is often said that the Falklands war was a damn close run thing. The fact that the Argentinians used the same ammunition type helped prevent a logistical break down for the British forces.

As the saying goes amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.

 

[PakSniper]

It's still going from one ammunition type to two types. that equals a greater logistical load.
It is often said that the Falklands war was a damn close run thing. The fact that the Argentinians used the same ammunition type helped prevent a logistical break down for the British forces.

That's true, but you also have to remember the British had to supply it self through a long water lane, I will talk about it a little more in the post. In Pakistan's case we don't have to travel long to re-supply our selves. But also know their are units in the military itself that are using the 5.56mm at this time. Logistically it can be a little problem not a major one in my opinion, know this as well the enemy also uses 7.62mm so if they run out and PA units are run over those 5.56mm are useless to the enemy (thus they are in a logitisical problem as well, same as US if they run out and have to use the enemy ammo). The US itself uses .50, 7.62mm, 5.56mm ammunition you don't see them having a logistical problem, the only problem is getting the required equipment to the front lines where the British might have been suffering from that is a logistical problem, thus they might have resorted to the enemy ammo (What if the Argentineans weren't using the same ammo). But look at it this way, if it was to be a problem why would PA want to change size, the explanition was given in a report and those on PakDef, that armies are now changing to 5.56mm (NATO standard), in the last 10 years the Turky's themselves moved away from 7.62mm, but for PA it will be a slow transisition. India itself is now using the INSAS 5.56mm and its a standard ammo size in their aresnal (and other Asian nations).

As the saying goes amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics.

“Amateurs talk about strategy, professionals talk about logistics.” In the five years since the 9/11 events, the old military adage has undergone a “transformation” of its own: Amateurs, to be sure, continue to talk about strategy, but real professionals increasingly talk about — anthropology.

In Iraq as in Afghanistan, real professionals have learned the hard way that — to put it in a nutshell — the injunction “Know Thy Enemy, Know Thyself” matters more than the bookish “Know Thy Clausewitz” taught in war colleges. Know thy enemy: At the tactical and operational levels at least, it is anthropology, not Clausewitzology, that will shed light on the grammar and logic of tribal warfare and provide the conceptual weapons necessary to return fire. Know thyself: It is only through anthropological “distanciation” that the U.S. military (and its various “tribes”: Army, Navy, etc.) will become aware of its own cultural quirks — including a monomaniacal obsession with Clausewitz — and adapt its military culture to the new enemy.

http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/4268401.html

If you go in-dept about the change and around the region its that they are switching gears, apart from the article I have quoted, and PA is now starting to adapt to the change. I hope I'm clear, if not I will try to make it clear

But also know war is won through strategy as well, it's an important factor which shouldn't be over looked.