Avalanche traps about 150 Pakistani soldiers

[VCheng]

Sir My father has served in this sector and mind you Kyani is talking about our age old tradition that no one is left behind . no matter how impossible it might look. he himself lost many of his men to avalanches or slipping into ditches. in many cases the recovery started right away or later but in the end they always recovered the bodies. he explained the same attitude among the Indians whenever they exchanged bodies.
in one case one of his men was swept with the avalanche into the depths of Krakuram but they eventually recovered the frozen body of that soldier after 6 months. I am talking about the late 60s to early 70s time.

the local porters of that Area are even more strict and wont go until they recover their man and they would use ropes and shovels and take the body back to their village. they say they cant bear to face the parents of the dead if they leave the body behind.

I perfectly understand the nobility of the sentiments and traditions that you describe, but how many people lie unrecovered on K-2 and other high peaks still?

Sometimes nature wins in a very cruel manner, for it knows no human sentiments.

 

[alibaz]

I think Gen Kayani lost an opportunity to let reality seep in as gently as possible by calling those lost as "missing" instead of "shuhada" in his speech. The intent to recover the bodies is noble indeed, but it must be tempered with a dose of reality too, given the nature of the task as defined by him.

I think he chose appropriate words, those people are missing and there is no doubt though we know they they are in specific 1 x1 I'm patch. He used word missing without specifying they are believed to be shaheed or alive.

 

[VCheng]

.......... He used word missing without specifying they are believed to be shaheed or alive.

Exactly. What are the odds of them being alive? Please be serious here. It raises false hopes unnecessarily and is cruel on a certain level to the families at least. Like I said, he missed an opportunity to call them the shaheeds that they are, certainly.

 

[Jango]

Exactly. What are the odds of them being alive? Please be serious here. It raises false hopes unnecessarily and is cruel on a certain level to the families at least. Like I said, he missed an opportunity to call them the shaheeds that they are, certainly.

I don't think anyone has any hopes here. So it was just a kind gesture towards the nobility of the mission. Nothingmore

 

[deckingraj]

Exactly. What are the odds of them being alive? Please be serious here. It raises false hopes unnecessarily and is cruel on a certain level to the families at least. Like I said, he missed an opportunity to call them the shaheeds that they are, certainly.

I disagree....those men are missing and will remain missing unless and until their bodies are recovered....It is in fact cruel to declare them dead before that...As far as relatives are concerned then they will take this false hope with both hands as compared to a premature declaration of them being dead....Though we all know that by now there is hardly any hope of survivals however irrespective of that protocols needs to be followed stringently...

 

[alibaz]

Exactly. What are the odds of them being alive? Please be serious here. It raises false hopes unnecessarily and is cruel on a certain level to the families at least. Like I said, he missed an opportunity to call them the shaheeds that they are, certainly.

I don't think it was really important to have addressed them as shuhada , we know the reality, their families have reconciled, there are no false hopes at the same time we are not disappointed from Almighty.

 

[VCheng]

I disagree....those men are missing and will remain missing unless and until their bodies are recovered....It is in fact cruel to declare them dead before that...As far as relatives are concerned then they will take this false hope with both hands as compared to a premature declaration of them being dead....Though we all know that by now there is hardly any hope of survivals however irrespective of that protocols needs to be followed stringently...

Do you realize that survivorship benefits cannot proceed legally until a declaration of death or a certain period of several years (usually 7 to 10) passes without recovery of the body? Do you really want to keep the families hanging on for that long?

I don't think it was really important to have addressed them as shuhada , we know the reality, their families have reconciled, there are no false hopes at the same time we are not disappointed from Almighty.

I can accept your point of view as expressed.

 

[Windjammer]

I disagree....those men are missing and will remain missing unless and until their bodies are recovered....It is in fact cruel to declare them dead before that...As far as relatives are concerned then they will take this false hope with both hands as compared to a premature declaration of them being dead....Though we all know that by now there is hardly any hope of survivals however irrespective of that protocols needs to be followed stringently...

As i posted before, even the ISPR had requested to the media not to write buried but rather trapped soldiers.
Just takes a little imagination to understand the sentiments of the ever hopeful families.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Do you realize that survivorship benefits cannot proceed legally until a declaration of death or a certain period of several years (usually 7 to 10) passes without recovery of the body? Do you really want to keep the families hanging on for that long?

I can accept your point of view as expressed.

The legal issue is these men are considered "missing". However for disbursement of compensation etc. to survivors, then that terminology will have to changed to "missing, presumed dead". Till that happens, no release of compensatory benefits can happen.
If "missing" terminology is continued with, then the statutory limit of 7 years (at least in India) applies and all disbursements then remain in limbo, which will be a second tragedy.

The concerned authorities will have to take a call on this matter at the appropriate time. It may seem difficult (only on sentimental grounds), but will be a legal necessity.

 

[Last Hope]

Do you realize that survivorship benefits cannot proceed legally until a declaration of death or a certain period of several years (usually 7 to 10) passes without recovery of the body? Do you really want to keep the families hanging on for that long?

If they would have declared them dead, the rescue operation would have changed to recovery operation and even halted. There are still hopes and a minute percentage of survival, with hands and lips into prayers. Miracles do happen and we believe in it to happen at Gyari.

As i posted before, even the ISPR had requested to the media not to write buried but rather trapped soldiers.
Just takes a little imagination to understand the sentiments of the ever hopeful families.

They still have hopes which is a good sign, the operation would be more enthusiastic than the recovery operation.

 

[regular]

Sir My father has served in this sector and mind you Kyani is talking about our age old tradition that no one is left behind . no matter how impossible it might look. he himself lost many of his men to avalanches or slipping into ditches. in many cases the recovery started right away or later but in the end they always recovered the bodies. he explained the same attitude among the Indians whenever they exchanged bodies.
in one case one of his men was swept with the avalanche into the depths of Krakuram but they eventually recovered the frozen body of that soldier after 6 months. I am talking about the late 60s to early 70s time.

the local porters of that Area are even more strict and wont go until they recover their man and they would use ropes and shovels and take the body back to their village. they say they cant bear to face the parents of the dead if they leave the body behind.

Yes! they can't leave the bodies within the snow ....they need to be found out at all cost and need a proper burial with all due respect......The rescue guyz know their reponsibility very well and working very hard to find the buried ones at all cost....Excellent and coaurageous job is being done by them in this harsh weather out there......

 

[VCheng]

...........

They still have hopes which is a good sign, the operation would be more enthusiastic than the recovery operation.

Hopes based on what exactly (other than futile wishes for miracles)?

 

[PakFalcon]

Hopes based on what exactly (other than futile wishes for miracles)?

not futile then ur negative brain !!! Americans can never think positive for Pakistan and y did i forgot that u r actually a American oooOo my Bad

u must have assigned this task to make a hopeless situation but look wat a disappointment for u man !! we are still hopeful despite ur hard efforts and day n night negative postings ..opsss bad luck Mr. VCheng ...

Yes these guys are still trapped not buried and they have the right to get the help at fullest and salutes and hatts off to the rescue workers for thr unintrptd services for the jawans of the nations !! Allah bless u guys and keep up the gr8 work, ur brothers down thr need it at this time ... and yes Rescue team beware of this V.CHENG , he might be dangerous !!

 

[deckingraj]

Do you realize that survivorship benefits cannot proceed legally until a declaration of death or a certain period of several years (usually 7 to 10) passes without recovery of the body? Do you really want to keep the families hanging on for that long?

Yes...i am totally aware of that fact....still i stand by my point....Protocols need to be followed stringently and should not be altered with just to speed up the death benefits to family members...As said even the family members will take this false hope with both hands....There is work going on to find these men and nothing should be concluded unless and until there is concrete proofs. b/w we are not talking about years here....sooner or later rescue workers will reach these men....until then let's hold all these thoughts....

I believe if we somehow channel our energy in making the rescue work fasten then that would be a far better job than declaring them dead for the sake of speedy death benfits for the family members....Listen miracles do happen....why rule them out in this case??? Almighty is far more powerful then our figment of imagination, no???

As i posted before, even the ISPR had requested to the media not to write buried but rather trapped soldiers.
Just takes a little imagination to understand the sentiments of the ever hopeful families.

And ISPR is making a very sane request...Assuming media is adhering to the advice...

The legal issue is these men are considered "missing". However for disbursement of compensation etc. to survivors, then that terminology will have to changed to "missing, presumed dead". Till that happens, no release of compensatory benefits can happen.
If "missing" terminology is continued with, then the statutory limit of 7 years (at least in India) applies and all disbursements then remain in limbo, which will be a second tragedy.

The concerned authorities will have to take a call on this matter at the appropriate time. It may seem difficult (only on sentimental grounds), but will be a legal necessity.

Your point is very valid as far legality of the issue is concerned...but i am still at loss about the expected time frame that you have in yor mind till rescue workers reach these men....can you please elaborate???

Hopes based on what exactly (other than futile wishes for miracles)?

You don't need a logic for hoping something to happen....Are you denying that miracles do happen??? if no then why are you saying futile wishes for miracle?? By definition miracle means something which logically is impossible to occur, no??

 

[Freek]

may god help them and families