Australia 'spied on Indonesian President Yudhoyono'

[Nike]

I am personally agree with you, spying is not a mistake when it is being done privately without public aknowledge. It becomes a mistake when you are caught snooping around though.

Do you think Indonesian government will believe what Australia say if Abbot says "sorry" and "we won't do it again"? I assure you that the answer is no, because we know spying on each other can't be stopped, the indonesian government only need that "sorry" word for assurance to its own people which is now in outrage.



well, at least it is published by a media, not a man with certain political power like Textor. Our media is crazy about publishing innapropriate critic cartoons.

sound crazy, but it is true, even SBY had been bullied by our media before That's what we called democracy and freedom of speech

 

[nufix]

sound crazy, but it is true, even SBY had been bullied by our media before That's what we called democracy and freedom of speech

but it would be more accurate if they put Rudd into it, since the revealed phone tapping attempts was happening during Rudd's government.

 

[Maxtini]

But a mistake hasn't been made. That's the concept you are others in this thread can't understand.

Spying and gathering information IS NOT a mistake. Every single country in the world spies and gathers information from other countries and every single government knows it and it acknowledges it.

It's not simply a "mistake" It's just a normal procedure. Indonesia is spying on Australia right now, that's not a mistake and the Australian government has never kicked up a fuss about it nor asked Indonesia to call it a "mistake" and say "sorry" because it's a normal thing to do.

This is what you all arent getting.

I'm wondering if you are blind or incapable of reading.

As have been said by all Indonesians here:
It ain't spying that is the mistake, it is get caught open in the media that you spied is the mistake!

To put it into perspective:
Everybody lies ~ don;t tell you don't~
You need not to apologize if you're not caught lying, but when you get caught, everyone with good common sense will apologize, simply because he was caught lying.
Normaly, only a retard, or someone who feels superior is the one who stubbornly refuse to apologize. In this case, I might conclude that Tony Abbott is that retard, or is the one who have high ego that refuse to apologize to inferior "low status" Indonesia.


As have been said by all Indonesians here:
It ain't spying that is the mistake, it is get caught open in the media that you spied is the mistake!

 

[xdrive]

Indonesia has been caught in public spying on Australia, yet the Australian government didn't over react and go on a massive chest thumping crusade. The Indonesian President wasn't asked to "apologize" Why? Because it's not to apologize for, EVERY government gathers information. There wasn't massive protests and flag burnings either, infact the incident was just ignored and brushed over as insignificant. Just goes to show how over the top Indonesia is being.

South Korea was also caught spying on us, and once again there was no over reaction. Koreans caught spying

Indonesias response is just chest thumping to please nationalists for the upcoming elections.

well, at least it is published by a media, not a man with certain political power like Textor. Our media is crazy about publishing innapropriate critic cartoons.

He has no political power whatsoever. He's not in the government or parliament.

Newspapers have massive political power.

 

[nufix]

Indonesia has been caught in public spying on Australia, yet the Australian government didn't over react and go on a massive chest thumping crusade. The Indonesian President wasn't asked to "apologize" Why? Because it's not to apologize for, EVERY government gathers information. There wasn't massive protests and flag burnings either, infact the incident was just ignored and brushed over as insignificant. Just goes to show how over the top Indonesia is being.

South Korea was also caught spying on us, and once again there was no over reaction. Koreans caught spying

Indonesias response is just chest thumping to please nationalists for the upcoming elections.

didnt you just say something like "stance"? Well, I am not a supporter of these action, I would say that these right wing nationalist are "lebay-exaggerating", but they have made their stance just like yours. Seeing how you beelittling their stance forced me to believe that Australian public never felt any wrong even after their government is being used as pawn of surveillance conducted by countries thousands of miles away, against their own neighbors.

He has no political power whatsoever. He's not in the government or parliament.

Newspapers have massive political power.

really? he advised the Liberals, he took part in several successful campaigns. Are you sure people like that has no weight? Funny why Aussie newspaper took a look at his twitter if his voice had no importance.

newspapers have no political power per se, they have power to create opinion which will be used as political ground for something.

 

[Nike]

@nufix and @Maxtini

Nah, Xdrive is one of die hard Abbott supporters back in Australia, he can never see how to emulate a good relationship and diplomatic skills and affair with their "Asia Neighbor" countries, "just my choice is never do anything wrong" idea fill his head. We had a lot of people like him back home And i laughing so loud when he said Australia is Multi Ethnic and multi races countries, altough they had White Australian policy till recently And never i see black or yellow races holds a prominent positions in Australian gov. or public services Just some Chinese town in Sydney with small population of Chinese and they dare to claim as multi ethnic and multi races country just like the US or even England, hell no. I had visiting Australia before and i can tell you

 

[xdrive]

Nah, Xdrive is one of die hard Abbott supporters back in Australia

I'm not a die hard supporter. I did vote for his government considering the Labor government was completely incompetent and dysfunctional. Our current Liberal government previously governed for 12 years and did a great job, Tony Abbot was a part of that government too. He knows what to do.

he can never see how to emulate a good relationship and diplomatic skills and affair with their "Asia Neighbor" countries

Australia has a good relationship with most of its neighbours.

And i laughing so loud when he said Australia is Multi Ethnic and multi races countries

Why laugh? It's a fact and Australias demographic statistics show it. Would you like me to quote some of it for you?

altough they had White Australian policy till recently

40 years ago isn't "Recently" and all that meant was our immigration program favoured people from europe.

And never i see black or yellow races holds a prominent positions in Australian gov. or public services

Well you obviously don't know much about Australia's government then do you? We have an Aboriginal, Chinese, and Muslim government ministers

Just some Chinese town in Sydney with small population of Chinese

Again you are taking your ignorance as fact. You have obviously never been to Sydney or Melbourne. There is currently 866,205 Australians who have Chinese heritage. 1 in 4 Australians were not born in Australia.

and they dare to claim as multi ethnic and multi races country just like the US or even England, hell no

Well bad luck, it's a fact.

I had visiting Australia before and i can tell you

Well you haven't because pretty much every SINGLE thing you just said is completely wrong.

 

[katarabhumi]

Indonesia is just trying to flex its political muscle and is going over the top. Our government didn't react this way when it found out about Indonesia spying in 2004 because we know its what all governments do.

"Caught" in 2004 but the spying was in 1999. It was different situation back then in 1999. Australia and Indonesia were hostile to one another during Timor Leste crisis. Spying on your "enemy" is very acceptable. Hell, even Australia had the plan to bomb Jakarta.

Australia 'was set to bomb Jakarta in Timor conflict' - Telegraph

Now, the fuzz is about 2009 bugging when relation between Australia - Indonesia has much improved.

Sure that's not an excuse to stop spying operation but what is the importance of spying on President's wife?.. Is she a threat to Australia's national security?




.

 

[xdrive]

We should overreact now, cut all ties and burn Indonesian and Chinese flags in the street! Right?

Nah we will act like adults and acknowledge that governments gathering information is completely normal and we won't go over the top.

Indonesian spies are using Chinese electronic equipment to spy on Aussies

INDONESIA'S military intelligence agency is using sophisticated Chinese surveillance equipment to target Australian officials, companies and individuals.
And Jakarta and Beijing are conducting a growing number of combined spying operations against Australia, according to well-placed sources.

Following revelations by News Corp that Australian cell phones were being bugged for between $300 and $1000 by companies directly linked with the Indonesian military, it can be revealed that information intercepted by the phone taps is distributed to military authorities in China via Indonesia's military intelligence agency Badan Inteligen Strategis (BAIS).

The phone taps are only a tiny element of a targeted espionage operation that uses fixed and mobile interception equipment to bug Australian diplomats, corporations and private citizens.


This includes vans equipped with the latest Chinese listening technology. Much of the equipment is based on western designs that have been stolen by China and provided to Indonesia by China's 3rd Department of the Peole's Liberation Army (PLA). The BAIS is closely linked to the 3rd Department.

Indonesian spies are using Chinese electronic equipment to spy on Aussies | News.com.au

 

[DarkElf]

We should overreact now, cut all ties and burn Indonesian and Chinese flags in the street! Right?

Nah we will act like adults and acknowledge that governments gathering information is completely normal and we won't go over the top.

5 pages and you still don't get it, don't you? Best reply that sum it all.

I'm wondering if you are blind or incapable of reading.

As have been said by all Indonesians here:
It ain't spying that is the mistake, it is get caught open in the media that you spied is the mistake!

To put it into perspective:
Everybody lies ~ don;t tell you don't~
You need not to apologize if you're not caught lying, but when you get caught, everyone with good common sense will apologize, simply because he was caught lying.
Normaly, only a retard, or someone who feels superior is the one who stubbornly refuse to apologize. In this case, I might conclude that Tony Abbott is that retard, or is the one who have high ego that refuse to apologize to inferior "low status" Indonesia.


As have been said by all Indonesians here:
It ain't spying that is the mistake, it is get caught open in the media that you spied is the mistake!

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Australia spying on Indonesia is understandable & vice versa, but what about these two country that's already in Australian Camp & does not pose a single virtual threat to Australia.

East Timor takes swipe at US and Australia over spying claims
Xanana Gusmao joins growing chorus of condemnation over network operating out of consulates and embassies in Asia

• theguardian.com, Thursday 7 November 2013 07.55 GMT

East Timor's prime minister, Xanana Gusmao, told the Bali Democracy Forum on Thursday that the spying activities were "shameless". Photograph: Firdia Lisnawati/AP
East Timorese prime minister Xanana Gusmao has joined a growing chorus of condemnation over a US-led spy network operating out of embassies and consulates across Asia, including various Australian diplomatic missions.

Speaking at the Bali Democracy Forum on Thursday, Gusmao took what appeared to be a swipe at the United States and Australia over the spying allegations, saying they had "shamelessly" engaged in activities that had violated the rights of citizens in other countries.

It's been claimed that Australian surveillance collection facilities are in place at embassies in Jakarta, Bangkok, Hanoi, Beijing and Dili, and high commissions in Kuala Lumpur and Port Moresby, as part of a US-led spy network.

"Either we are in the presence of an extreme distrust where everyone is a potential enemy, or we are witnessing the fraudulent use of technology to obtain economic advantage over others, which is even more immoral when those others are weak and small," Gusmao said in his speech.

"I ask you all whether we can really say that we are living in a democracy if we are subject to pervasive surveillance. Now that information technology is part of the fabric of our lives we have to consider the impact on democracy when our communications are being watched by others."

The spying row started off between the US and its European allies but last week erupted in Asia after Fairfax published articles claiming there was a network of US intelligence facilities in the region.

The articles, amplifying an earlier story by German magazine Der Spiegel, said Australian missions were also involved in the US-led spy network.

Guardian Australia reported that Australia was spying on Indonesia at the UN climate change conference in 2007, according documents obtained by the whistleblower Edward Snowden.

Gusmao's comments come amid growing anger over the revelations, with Indonesia and Malaysia having also been vocal critics.

Indonesian foreign minister Marty Natalegawa on Monday labelled Australia's response to complaints that its embassy was used to collect data and eavesdrop on Indonesian interests as unacceptable.

Natalegawa warned that co-operation between Jakarta and Canberra in various areas, including security and people smuggling, would be reviewed in the wake of the revelations.

Australian foreign affairs minister Julie Bishop, who is also attending the forum in Bali, is expected to face fresh questions over the coming days.

Bishop is expected to meet with Natalegawa again on Friday.

East Timor takes swipe at US and Australia over spying claims | World news | theguardian.com

Australian envoy to PNG summoned to explain spy scam
From POST COURIER/PACNEWS

News
Tue 26 Nov 2013


PORT MORESBY, PNG --- The Australian High Commissioner to Papua New Guinea will be summoned to explain the spy scandal that has rocked relations between Australia and other countres in the region.

Prime Minister Peter O’Neill told Parliament on Friday that he had instructed Foreign Minister Rimbink Pato to summon the Australian High Commissioner to explain the scandal, seek further clarification on the matter and also to explain PNG’s position on the Manus asylum deal and visa issues.

“It is a well known fact now that Australians have been involved in some intelligence collection work around the region, particularly Indonesia and also some work seem to be taking place in our own country,’’ said O’Neill.

“As I have stated publicly , friends do not do that to their friends and that the Australians respect our sovereignty, respect the rights of individuals especially tapping of phones without proper legal clearance to do so is illegal and we expect our friends to respect our laws.”

The Prime Minister said he had advised the Foreign Minister to bring all these issues up at next month’s Ministerial Forum in Canberra that there was a firm agreement between the two countries that there be no intelligence gathering.

“I have always stated that if anybody wants to participate in our conversations all they have to do is ask. They don’t need to come in uninvited so that will be one of the issues that will be on the Ministerial Forum,’’ he said.

“Why I want him to do that is because I also want to give the Australians the leg up so they understand the issues that are more important to us before we go to that meeting in December. I don’t want that meeting to be another meeting that we say and do things for one year and then come back and meet again, so I want it to be meaningful, results must come out of it and that is why the Minister is now doing the ground work.”

On the issue of the National Intelligence Organsation, Mr O’Neill said NIO had been run down for some time and the government had recently appointed former police commissioner Gari Baki to take charge of the organisation.

“We also have got some intelligence friends from Israel who have come in and done a gap analysis on NIO, so we are now working closely with the Israelis to beef up our intelligence gathering activities so that our country can be informed on a timely manner in terms of our security and intelligence issues.”

He said this when responding to questions from Manus MP Ronny Knight over the spy scandal that had now strained relations between Indonesia and Australia.

Australian envoy to PNG summoned to explain spy scam - Papua New Guinea - News - Islands Business magazine

And some Good News for everyone:

Indonesian president offers Australia spying truce
Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono says his country will restore normal diplomatic relations if Tony Abbott signs up to ethics code

The Indonesian president, Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, during a press conference at the presidential palace in Jakarta. Photograph: Mast Irham/EPA

Indonesia's president has said that his country will restore normal diplomatic relations with Australia if prime minister Tony Abbott signs up to a new bilateral code of ethics on intelligence-sharing.

But Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono also said that his government would summon Singaporean and South Korean diplomats in Jakarta over reports they had assisted Australian and US spying in the region.

Relations between Jakarta and Canberra were downgraded last week following revelations published by Guardian Australia and the ABC that Australian intelligence agencies had targeted Yudhoyono's personal phone and those of his wife and inner circle.

Yudhoyono said on Tuesday he would appoint a special envoy to draft and negotiate the new "code of ethics" between the two countries and added that he hoped Abbott would join him to sign the code in person once it had been agreed.

"When both countries, but particularly Indonesia, have regained trust and also when the protocol and code ethics are fully implemented, then we can continue mutual beneficial bilateral relations including military and police co-operation between the two countries," Yudhoyono said.

Yudhoyono added that Abbott's letter had assured him that Australia would not take any action that "disturbs and damages relations with Indonesia".

Earlier, the president tweeted a photograph of himself reading a conciliatory letter from Abbot, which was hand-delivered at the weekend. But he laid out six steps before relations could be properly restored.

The statement is likely to be seen as a positive sign from Jakarta, which had temporarily halted all military co-operation and information sharing with Australia, as well as all co-operation on people smuggling. On Tuesday the Indonesian trade minister also said he was considering halting beef imports from Australia.

But the news that Yudhoyono would be summoning Singaporean and South Korean diplomats is likely to raise eyebrows as neither country had previously been mentioned in connection with the phone tapping.

"I have discussed the matter with the [Indonesian] foreign affairs minister and asked for clarification from related ambassadors here," Yudhoyono said at a press conference at the presidential palace in Jakarta.

Yudhoyono had previously described Abbott's response to the phone-tapping revelations as "belittling" after the prime minister refused to apologise. Abbott has refused to confirm or deny that the phone-tapping took place.

The president used the press conference to reassure Canberra that relations between Australia and Indonesia were "in essence" very good and must be safeguarded.

Yudhoyono acknowledged that the process of negotiating a new code of ethics might take time. "It needs process of course, intensive discussion and diplomacy," he said. "We will conduct it in the near future."

Separately, Malaysia's foreign ministry summoned a senior Singaporean diplomat over allegations that the city-state had helped the United States and Australia tap telecommunications links in Asia for espionage. Singapore's government has not publicly responded to the allegations.

The Malaysian foreign minister, Anifah Aman, said in a statement that his ministry was seeking clarification from Singapore's high commissioner to Malaysia.

"If those allegations are eventually proven, it is certainly a serious matter that the government of Malaysia strongly rejects and abhors," Anifah said. He said spying against a good friend and neighbour was unacceptable.

Indonesian president offers Australia spying truce | World news | theguardian.com

 

[Nike]

it make me more confusing

 

[Wholegrain]

Australia spying on Indonesia is understandable & vice versa, but what about these two country that's already in Australian Camp & does not pose a single virtual threat to Australia.






And some Good News for everyone:

East Timor is not pro-Australia. Australia caused the 2006 riots against Alkatiri because of his anti Australia views.

 

[aliaselin]

As descendants of criminals from the Great Britain，the foreign policy of Australia is more or less like the Great Britain of history. In 1600s - 1900s, the Great Britain always behaved as a screw-up for the mainland of Europe, involving in every wars no matter if it is their business. And it seems Australia follows the foreign policy, and their geographical position is similar if we treat Pacific-Asia as europe mainland. For a screw-up, one of the most important part is spying, and cast a bone between two countries in the region. So I'm not suprised to see Australia is warmly eagaged in spying the countries in this areas.