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Attacking Pakistan

The only way for Pakistan to do something "militarily" would be to hit Afghan forces stationed near the border. Although that may give some satisfaction, the bigger problem will continue. Hitting ANA would do Pakistan no good. Doing so would generate more sympathy for the Afghans and critique for Pakistan. Although I do think that if something of a similar nature occurs again, then Pakistan should hit back locally and remind Karzai and team about this being a two way street (I.E. Pakistan would not quietly sit back and receive all the time).

If by hitting back locally you mean repel border attacks like the latest invasion which killed 14 FCers then that would mean engaging NATO. I think Pakistan needs to always steer clear of engaging NATO troops whenever possible. I believe Gilani & Co. are working on a communications hotline with NATO to defuse such situations so if it is determined that no NATO troops are nearby then yes, the ANA should then get the thrashing it deserves.


Going across the border is not an option for Pakistan, however hitting Afghans from within Pakistani territory is possible. Not saying that this sort of thing should happen, I just hope the other side does not do a repeat of this incident. The side affects of another strike would be that Pakistan will seriously throttle cooperation in more than one way. That would not be good for anyone.

I am not proposing just going over the border without permission! The Pak army would get permission from NATO/USA for the exact same "hot pursuit" excuse that NATO has. Karzai would object but because Pakistan has given the USA access to FATA and NWFP via drones this could actually be used to gain reciprocal permission for the SSG to physically invade Afghanistan whenever it feels like it WITHOUT NATO RETALIATION. In other words there would be an agreement between NATO and PA that the PA can enter and leave Afghanistan in certain areas within say a 10 mile radius from the border. Karzai himself would object but the hell with him. NATO would also agree to stay away from the SSG if it was ever identified. This will at least lend a shred of dignity back the PA and it would make pakistanis feel happier.

Needless to say Pakistan would also ask NATO for permission to fire missiles in areas that the PA deems to be a hotbed of militants.
 
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i personally think that the response from the government thus far has been very mature. we dont need any more saber rattling in the region. but i do agree that the next time any of these freaks try to setup a border force inside our region then we should make sure that those who enter pakistani territory will not leave it alive.
i wanted to ask Jana what does the pushtun population feel when afghans say that the pushtus are being persicuted inside pakistani territory, one of my friends who is pushtuns always laughs at this idea.
 
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i personally think that the response from the government thus far has been very mature. we dont need any more saber rattling in the region. but i do agree that the next time any of these freaks try to setup a border force inside our region then we should make sure that those who enter pakistani territory will not leave it alive.
i wanted to ask Jana what does the pushtun population feel when afghans say that the pushtus are being persicuted inside pakistani territory, one of my friends who is pushtuns always laughs at this idea.

I dont think it even needs to come to that. All Pakistan needs to do is threaten to disband the supply line that presently goes through Pakistan. Take a stern stance and that will stop every thing. Killing people on your soil may prove more of a problem,we are doomed if we do and doomed if we dont..
Araz
 
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Separating the good guys from the bad ones


By Irfan Husain

PRESIDENT Karzai’s recent threat to attack terrorists like Baitullah Mehsud who were attacking his countrymen has sent a wave of anger and indignation across Pakistan. The Afghan envoy to Pakistan has been duly chastised by our Foreign Office, and an editorial in this newspaper yesterday proclaimed: “Pakistan is doing its best to check the militants operating on its side of the Durand Line.”

But is it? This version of our efforts to contain the terrorist threat in our tribal areas was contradicted by Carlotta Gall, the New York Times correspondent. In a despatch from Afghanistan on June 17, she writes: “In Pakistan’s tribal areas of North and South Waziristan, Maulvi Haqqani and his son run a network of madressahs and training camps, and provide protection for foreign fighters and terrorist groups like Al Qaeda… Pakistani forces have been reluctant to move against the Haqqanis. According to European officials and one senior Pakistani official. Maulvi Haqqani has maintained his old links with Pakistani intelligence and still enjoys their protection. Asked in 2006 why the Pakistani military did not move against Maulvi Haqqani, a senior Pakistani intelligence official, speaking on condition of anonymity, acknowledged that it was because he was a Pakistani asset…”


Pakistanis were justly furious when American forces accidentally killed several Pakistani soldiers in Momand Agency recently. Other incidents over the last seven years have seen a number of Pakistani civilians killed as a result of Afghan-based attacks on terrorist targets on our soil. The reaction has been swift and predictable, with Pakistanis taking to the streets to protest.

Given this understandable anger on our side of the border, why should we think the Afghans will react any differently to cross-border incursions from Pakistan in which lives are lost? Surely, respect for sovereignty is a two-way street. If we will not, or cannot, control the activities of the Taliban and their many supporters on our side of the border, can we really complain when our neighbours threaten to take care of these terrorists? The reality, of course, is that the Afghan army is not strong enough to mount an actual incursion into the tribal areas to try and kill or capture warlords like Baitullah Mehsud. Nevertheless, Karzai has powerful friends whose troops are taking casualties, partly due to our inability to halt the movement of Mehsud’s and Haqqani’s men across the Durand Line. And although many Western commanders recognise the difficulty of sealing the border, their political masters in Washington, Paris and London often see the problem lying more in Islamabad.

It is true that the Afghan-Pakistan border lies along some of the most difficult terrain in the world. It is also true that our army has taken heavy casualties whenever it has tried to confront the militants. Hence the attempt to negotiate with the terrorists. But as Baitullah Mehsud has openly declared, a truce with the Pakistan government does not mean peace with Kabul. Obviously, he intends to use the respite he will get from an evacuation of Pakistani forces to renew his fight against coalition and Afghan forces. This is equally true for Maulvi Haqqani and other tribals engaging in the ongoing war in Afghanistan.

Clearly, the answer lies in more, not less, cooperation between our forces and the Afghan and western troops across the border. Equally importantly, there must be an urgent review of our intelligence links with the Taliban and their supporters. Remaining in denial about this relationship is to adopt an ostrich-like attitude that has cost us dear in the past.

Thus far, Bush and Musharraf have been partners in the ‘war on terror’. Since 9/11, they have developed a personal relationship that has helped smooth over many of the difficulties in conducting operations along the Pak-Afghan border. But we are now in the twilight of both presidents. The next US president might well take a far more hard-line position than his predecessor. Already, Barack Obama has signalled his willingness to use American forces to attack Osama bin Laden if his whereabouts are established on Pakistani soil. If faced with a major attack on his troops from across the Durand Line, he may well choose to ignore the niceties of international relations and retaliate.

In the laws governing war between nations, the principle of hot pursuit is a well-established one. If a neutral state is not a combatant, but allows its territory to be used to mount attacks against a neighbouring country, the latter has the right to send troops after the intruders.

Should there be an actual clash between Pakistani troops and their coalition and Afghan counterparts, the biggest gainers would be the militants. Our relations with both Kabul and the West would suffer. Extremism would gain ground.

One problem with getting our act together is that there is no clarity on the issue among ourselves. If one watches talk shows on private TV channels, this confusion becomes evident. Many popular anchors seem to be espousing the cause of extremist ideology, while appearing to be virulently anti-West. This ambivalence is reflected in our armed forces and our intelligence agencies. Thus, even when it runs counter to official policy, elements sympathetic to the Taliban and Al Qaeda within the state offer our enemies aid and succour.

Before we can seriously take on people like Baitullah Mehsud and Maulvi Haqqani, we have to decide on who the enemy really is. In Pakistan’s long adversarial relations with India, there is little confusion, at least in the minds of our establishment, who the foe is. Partly, this is matter of faith: generations of schoolchildren have been fed on poisonous propaganda, and nurture hostility that can be easily exploited once they enter the armed forces. The Kashmir dispute is another factor.

However, there is no historical animosity against the militants based in the tribal areas. On the contrary, these tribals have been romanticized as wild and woolly figures from the past, much as cowboys are seen in America. The fact that they are viewed as good Muslims makes it even more difficult to demonise them.

The truth is that before you can fight somebody effectively, you have to hate him. What many Pakistanis do hate is Western culture, although their feelings are tinged with envy. As long as the Taliban and Al Qaeda are viewed as standing up to the West, feelings in Pakistan are bound to be mixed, and the task of fighting them will be that much harder.

DAWN - Irfan Hussain; June 18, 2008

A balanced view in my opinion.

While the anger against Karzai in Pakistan is understandable, he may have his reasons to say what he said.
 
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May be.

But hasn't he made you go nuts?


Using this opportunity swiftly to pressure NATO to stand down at the Afghan border whenever the PA requests is not nuts. There is nothing crazy about getting ready to invade a country that just threatened to invade you.
 
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i dont n ow if any one remebers but just in feb/march i think the bla leader and his gang were kiled in afghanistan. they said the pakistanis did it but this was denied.

pakistan does operate in that **** hole of a country, may be senior aids to karzai populai should be sent to ahmed shah masood.
 
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The day the NATO responds to issues that are contrary to their mission, that will be the day!

And sadly, Pakistan will acquiesce since it is important fr her well being!

She has always accepted every action of the US, be it the Musharraf govt or his born again one of Zardari and Sharif!!

US rules the waves!!
 
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Well Pakistan is capable of fighting with the terrorists forces in Afghanistan but when it comes to threat Pakistan should b Active because they have Suicide Bombers Bloody Hell! So pak should increse land Millitary on Pak Afgan Border!
 
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I like that idea too. Blowing up a few compounds within Afghanistan would also give pakistan a big boost in public relations around the world because this is the best way to express that there are terrorists in Afghanistan which cause Pakistan harm and nobody is doing a thing about it. I don't know why there is no media campaign pointing the fingers at Afghanistan and NATO? Why is Pakistan sitting back and being demonized and labled the hotbed of terrorism when neighbours are sending terrorists inside pakistan?

You have asked a very huge question.

Because the Pakistan of today is not the Pakistan of the 60's 70's and 90's. Back then even if Pakistan was pressured, sanctioned, harassed, bullied, Pakistan would unwaveringly take action against any hostility both domestic and foreign. For example, when the Soviet Union "invaded" Afghanistan, Pakistan and it's leaders knew the dangers involved of Soviet expansion, and therefore they rallied support for the Jihad, organized an offensive, trained, supplied the Mujahideen to fight the Soviets. If the Pakistan of today was facing the problems of the 1980's we would at most monitor the problem of Afghanistan or ask for UN intervention (look at what Pakistan is doing in the face of the current US invasion).

Today, Pakistan Geo-Political leverage in Afghanistan has been compromised due to the US invasion and the US installed psuedo-democratically elected Regime of Hamid Karzai (A former employee of UNOCAL).

The Pakistan we see today is being driven through a degrading ceremony, and quite frankly it is the best time to do that to Pakistan because of a spineless jellyfish of a Leader we have at the throne of the Presidency. The Party at the helm of Pakistan is also corrupt, with very little vision and competence to guide the Nation to better days economically, socially, politically, and militarily. Also you yourself mentioned that Pakistan was being "demonized" this is also true, what is important to note here the people who have demonized us today are not so much our traditional enemies like India but it is our so called allies like the United States, Britain, and Karzai's Afghanistan.

Have we made failures, of course we have, have we made some awful mistakes yes we have. The militant problem we see today is a problem that arose from the end of the Soviet War in Afghanistan. Now if we examine the players at the time the US, UAE, KSA, Soviet Union, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and with limited involvement of China. Now look at which of the countries get's demonized the most today, Pakistan. It is a problem we have adopted not only because of bad policies but because of geographical proximity to Afghanistan.



So, What should Pakistan do?

To be brief, I support Pakistan conducting air strikes on those compromising and intimidating our civilian population, in Afghanistan, and if we happen to kill off some US "terrorist" soldiers then so be it, it is collateral damage.

We should continue to develop our economy, we should no longer take loans from the IMF, the IMF is parasitic forum that seeks to control the economy policies of other countries so there economic policies play more favorable to wealthier countries. (Very complicated topic there).

We should remove Zardari and other incompetent leaders. Find a new leader, a man or women with great charisma, intelligence, honest, discipline, sense, and foresight, and forbearance...Don't tell me there are no Pakistani Muslims that don't fit this description.
 
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You have asked a very huge question.
The militant problem we see today is a problem that arose from the end of the Soviet War in Afghanistan...So, What should Pakistan do? To be brief, I support Pakistan conducting air strikes on those compromising and intimidating our civilian population...develop our economy...no longer take loans from the IMF...remove Zardari
Don't you think that's a rather simplistic approach? I see it this way: Pakistan suffers from the lack of effective rule-of-law. The State has had a hand in this by the corruption of individual politicians, military officers, and bureaucrats , and the wholesale embrace of "stateless" (and thus excluded from the hands of justice) individuals as combatants in its wars. Criminal activity soared. The "Islamic" policies of Zia and his successors in practice furthered the process of neutering the justice system.

Bombs may chase out the anti-State Talibs, money may flow into the country from well-meaning folk elsewhere, and Zardari may be given the boot - but how can these things change the rot at the core of Pakistan? Military dictatorships generally can't undertake reforms because their support rests upon an Army whose leaders are resistant to change, but happy with the ideas of puffing their dignity through war or filling their wallet by skimming from public funds.

Zardari, however dirty his past, now has the legitimacy of the ballot box. If he can build on that to reform the State's institutions and make them more accountable he can reduce corruption; if he reduces corruption he can improve law enforcement; if he improves law enforcement that will make Pakistan a more attractive place to live and invest. Iraq is a current example of this process - though with the departure of Americans from administration I'm afraid the Arabs will fire the auditors and Iraq will slide down once more.

Maybe I'm dreaming. Maybe Zardari doesn't have what it takes (in which case after a few years someone else can be elected). But which dream, dictatorship or democracy, offers greater hope that Pakistan will become a happy country?
 
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