Attack on PAF Base Minhas

[Developereo]

All secure areas need to have better relationship with the civilian neighbours---that is the first line of defence against the intruders---. They need to be your friends---they need to be your go to guys---they need to be the frontline----and you need to give them security against the terrorists---and you need to find ways to reward them for their good deeds---you need to get them on your side---you need to make them believe in you---this is all about marketing----marketing yourself is one of the biggest part of security---.

Bottomline is that either you have marketed yourself better to your neighbours or your enemies have marketed themselves to your neighbours---it would be rather you who needs to win---.

You need to find ways to have your neighbors contact you in a secure manner---they need to inform you of any new comers in the area---they need to tell you who is doing anything suspicious---. Now think about it---what would something like that cost you---ie the base---some extra sugar---milk---cooking oil---clothing---some other goodies---treat these neighbors right and make them your watchdogs----.

Now where is nuclear science involved in this---now where do you need a rocket scientist to do this job---this is basics---fundamental of security 101---it is the 1st grade class lesson.

I agree with you, but the marketing job belongs not just to the military, but to the government and media as well. In the West and Israel, the media works with the military, and the civilian government accepts its responsibility to bring society on board the WoT to actively work with the security forces against the extremists.

In Pakistan, unfortunately, the wannabe liberal extremists poison the debate with their anti-military agenda, while absolving the civilian establishment of their governance failures. When the local media itself is busy demonizing the military, small wonder that the extremists find half their work done for them.

 

[Developereo]

There must also be an independent inspector of the base security---. That would have been the first thing that I would have done---have an independant security inspector---to come in and tear apart the the holes and lack of security---if the security met the basic threshold of protection---one warning to the base commander---but if the inspection shows below the base threshold level---immediate termination of the base commander.

What do you mean by 'independent inspector'? Detail of military base security should remain top-secret within the military itself.

 

[KRAIT]

Reminds me of shepherds who told IA about insurgency which led to Kargil war.

Human intelligence is most effective in places where electronic items haven't penetrated too deep.

Even if you build your bases at secluded place, the nearby villages or towns (even if they are few kilometers away) can serve as operating posts of spies or extremists.

Anything that seems doubtful to local and trusted people, has to be checked out in such places by security agencies.

 

[foxbat]

What do you mean by 'independent inspector'? Detail of military base security should remain top-secret within the military itself.

I guess he means out side the chain of command of the base commander.. Like an auditor.

 

[KRAIT]

I agree with you, but the marketing job belongs not just to the military, but to the government and media as well. In the West and Israel, the media works with the military, and the civilian government accepts its responsibility to bring society on board the WoT to actively work with the security forces against the extremists.

In Pakistan, unfortunately, the wannabe liberal extremists poison the debate with their anti-military agenda, while absolving the civilian establishment of their governance failures. When the local media itself is busy demonizing the military, small wonder that the extremists find half their work done for them.

I disagree with your media part especially in case of US. They do all the things that Pakistan media do. They hosts talk shows on anti-war debates, coverage to such rallies, expose US military human rights violation and other worst misconducts (see the documentary on rape victim in US armed forces) etc. etc. But they also shows news similar to what Pakistan media do.

But at the same time they paint the picture in different way. Well, its all about TRP as sensationalism sells. Even if US military works with media, well would any channel decline such offer as they will get info that other won't which is good for business.

Even in India, who paints Pakistan as failed and terrorist state, media also reports on other issues too.

Being selective is part of any institution as there is nothing called neutral or unbiased media.

It was media's failure that they couldn't find the loop holes in security system (I know its not a good suggestion but is better than idiotic discussion ). Every now and then, I see articles by newspaper presenting harsh facts about reality and make the govt. to take action, well, atleast they try. atleast in my area.

Any citizen can make a difference if they start boycotting channels which are least concerned about nation and truth and are busy in broadcasting idiotic news.

It will make other channels to learn from it and work for more important issues.

Go on and ask every friend on Facebook to ask your cable operator to not show the channels that are not worthy.

 

[MastanKhan]

What do you mean by 'independent inspector'? Detail of military base security should remain top-secret within the military itself.

Hi,

Independant inspector---is basically from the military----whose job it is just to do inspections---. He / she has all security clearance with the rank of a colonel at the least----he has a crew of majors captains lt's nco soldiers---a complete team that hits at the main gate of the base in the middle of the night or early morning or late evening---or in the heat of the sun---come in and raid the place.

My father used to do that---late night inspections of the hospital he was incharge of---just to see who was awake and who was not and who was working and who was not---.

Have my countrymen forgoten the very basics of efficiency.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Actually the killing of terror leaders has had a significant impact in the terror incidents worldwide.

Iraq is much better now and in most of the world, terror situation is better.

Iraq is better ?? For whom US soldiers or Iraqi people ??

Have you read about the carnage the AQ guys did during holy month of ramzan & eid or not ?? Are you in touch with the constant bombings happening killing dozens each week.

Iraq is in sheit, the people are dying except the US soldiers, if that you call success, then i have no words to argue with you as its useless to argue.

 

[vsdoc]

I have to agree with Taimi here Vinod.

 

[Developereo]

I disagree with your media part especially in case of US. They do all the things that Pakistan media do. They hosts talk shows on anti-war debates, coverage to such rallies, expose US military human rights violation and other worst misconducts (see the documentary on rape victim in US armed forces) etc. etc. But they also shows news similar to what Pakistan media do.

But at the same time they paint the picture in different way. Well, its all about TRP as sensationalism sells. Even if US military works with media, well would any channel decline such offer as they will get info that other won't which is good for business.

Your characterization of American media is out of date. In the Vietnam era, they were critical of the military but, since then, especially against the evil Ay-rabs and Mooslims, the US media is one of the biggest cheerleaders of the military and drum beaters of death and destruction.

Media 'criticism' of US military nowadays is always intended to uphold the military's prestige by portraying any bad conduct as an aberration by 'rogue' elements that must not be generalized to the US military as a whole. Even the mass murderers from Afghanistan and Iraq are portrayed as victims of long deployments, and other psychological trauma.

Even in India, who paints Pakistan as failed and terrorist state, media also reports on other issues too.

Being selective is part of any institution as there is nothing called neutral or unbiased media.

It was media's failure that they couldn't find the loop holes in security system (I know its not a good suggestion but is better than idiotic discussion ). Every now and then, I see articles by newspaper presenting harsh facts about reality and make the govt. to take action, well, atleast they try. atleast in my area.

Any citizen can make a difference if they start boycotting channels which are least concerned about nation and truth and are busy in broadcasting idiotic news.

It will make other channels to learn from it and work for more important issues.

Go on and ask every friend on Facebook to ask your cable operator to not show the channels that are not worthy.

Do you know how many millions the US government spends on global propaganda? Many media outlets around the world are backed by deep pockets that don't care about profits, and are only intended to further specific propaganda.

 

[BATMAN]

Dear, Blain & Irfan Baloch,
Only base commander is to be blamed for the kind of slackness we've witnessed.
There is no justification of 9 terrorists crossing into a 9' wall.

Believe it or not, perpetrators couldn't have come close to the wall until the area and security was thoroughly spied for years.

If AWACS are still around than its a simple, blessing.

I also read along, that base commander is facing the consequences but at the same time... we as a nation are still in disbelief that cold war is warming up.
Zardari him self is a product of cold war! and memo gate was a proof of it.

Where as, sense of national pride is concerned... yes it has been shattered but because the whole world knows its child's play to build a secure perimeter... irrespective if it was an AWACS parking, or a horse stable.

I know for sure how to do it... but manning main gate (post attack) with technicians... shows frustrations.

BTW, you can't save AWACS or building from distant rockets.. no matter what security measures you take.
Therefore, please, tell me the wisdom in keeping AWACS in Kamra and Orions in Karachi?

These assets shall be kept never on ground, as long we are in state of war.

We as a nation have to decide if national security is more important or democrazy!

 

[BATMAN]

I have to agree with Taimi here Vinod.

Well... I actually would agree with Vnod here more than TK.. sorry.

According to international threat alerts ... it is Pakistan on top, irrespective of ground reality.

It is allowed for foreigners to visit Iraq and Afghanistan but Pakistan.

There are more international airlines flying into Afghanistan and Iraq than Pakistan... a fact!

I'm not debating here but telling you state of affairs.

Trust me, Indians are doing business in Iraq, and they know it first hand and so do i.

Anyway, Bringing Iraq into the discussion was a troll bait... lets drop it here.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Where are snipers and dragnov ?? They should hold area from towers and kill militant miles away.
Very pathetic strategy by PAF.
And Resident area near airbase

 

[KRAIT]

Your characterization of American media is out of date. In the Vietnam era, they were critical of the military but, since then, especially against the evil Ay-rabs and Mooslims, the US media is one of the biggest cheerleaders of the military and drum beaters of death and destruction.

Media 'criticism' of US military nowadays is always intended to uphold the military's prestige by portraying any bad conduct as an aberration by 'rogue' elements that must not be generalized to the US military as a whole. Even the mass murderers from Afghanistan and Iraq are portrayed as victims of long deployments, and other psychological trauma.



Do you know how many millions the US government spends on global propaganda? Many media outlets around the world are backed by deep pockets that don't care about profits, and are only intended to further specific propaganda.

I think this might be off-topic but want to point out new aspects one should think about:-

1. Prime Minister of UK asked Zuckerberg to use Facebook as a platform to know what UK people think of particular policy of his.

2. Anti-corruption drive in India spread due to social media.

3. Various people post about the ground conditions, which are subjected to authenticity before reaching a conclusion, about various evensts happening in Syria, Arab nations etc.

and list goes on....

Point is what you are talking about governmental propaganda is talk of early 2000s and before that, where social media based on social networking sites didn't matter a lot.

I would now like to present two topic which you should look into - Information dissemination in social networks and Opinion formation in Social Networks. Now comes the psychometric functions too, which are quite useful to understand decision making of an individual.

These aspects are being studied extensively and is used by Multi-national companies and Intelligence agencies like CIA which honoured Zuckerberg for providing world's largest database of over 500 million people with their pictures, basic info etc.

Now look at PDF, most of the people came to knew about this attack through PDF (I am among these people) and many members accepted the possible reasons and motives of this attack based on opinions of senior members like you.

My point is, the media controlled by government is now taken over by social media which is constructive as well as destructive (Rumor based recent riots in India).

People in India (not including case of Pakistan) now gets more information through Facebook, Twitter etc. and believes it more than our media channels. This has also caused to check the effect of social media by the government. That's why no matter how much money you give to news channel, people now have alternative channel of information.

Many politicians especially people like Narendra Modi, are using twitter to inform public about work done by his government which has resulted his popularity especially among middle class of India. He doesn't have to buy any news channel to propagate his views and future plans. This will pay off in coming elections.

Posting few doctored pictures of Rohingyans on social networking sites has caused ripples all around Asia and I may say to the world, caused riots in India, discussion in Arab countries and growing opposition among people of other nations. I mean one person who sat on his computer and morphed few images caused such a great effect, look at the power now any individual can use. Government can control media but not every individual.

My point is social media like PDF is now becoming a trusted source of information and making people to look at other side of the coin which was hindered by the govt. through buying media channels.

Now anti-war feeling is emerging in US due to the crowd that sees ground reality through people they are connected with via social networking sites, who post the pictures etc. which has also made society more vulnerable to rumors and violence.

 

[MastanKhan]

Krait,

Thank you very much for the informative post---.

The europeans consider Barack Obama's campaign of 4 years ago as a highly successful marketing campaign---as a matter of fact large businesses study the tactics and techniques used in that campaign.

Similiary---during the campaign against Musharraf 4 + years ago about the removal of chief justice---killing of akbar Bugti---raid on red mosque---PPPP used similiar sales and marketing tactics and techniques---which was very obvious to me---and I also wrote about it on this board---jang.com---pakisanlink---dawn.com did not consider it worth it to publish it.

The problem is that with the illeterates---or less knowledgeable people---if they not know it---for them it means that it does not exist---this has been the standard mindset of t he pakistani---literate and illeterate---I mean to say---look at the members on this baord---every one of them is literate---some senior members and senior mods--very literate---but if it goes against their belief and what they have heard---it does not exist.

For american media---it is all about nationalism---it is america first---. When it comes to america---truth honesty honor integroty---all be damned---. The millitary requested the media not to show the dead soldier bodies coming off air craft---they stopped showing it---they stopped any negative news about the u s millitary----.

There is not a single analyst who can go on the tv and speak the truth about the failures of the u s military in iraq and afg---either out of fear of retaliation or out of necessary nationalism---.

Dear, Blain & Irfan Baloch,
Only base commander is to be blamed for the kind of slackness we've witnessed.
There is no justification of 9 terrorists crossing into a 9' wall.

Believe it or not, perpetrators couldn't have come close to the wall until the area and security was thoroughly spied for years.

If AWACS are still around than its a simple, blessing.

I also read along, that base commander is facing the consequences but at the same time... we as a nation are still in disbelief that cold war is warming up.
Zardari him self is a product of cold war! and memo gate was a proof of it.

Where as, sense of national pride is concerned... yes it has been shattered but because the whole world knows its child's play to build a secure perimeter... irrespective if it was an AWACS parking, or a horse stable.

I know for sure how to do it... but manning main gate (post attack) with technicians... shows frustrations.

BTW, you can't save AWACS or building from distant rockets.. no matter what security measures you take.
Therefore, please, tell me the wisdom in keeping AWACS in Kamra and Orions in Karachi?

These assets shall be kept never on ground, as long we are in state of war.

We as a nation have to decide if national security is more important or democrazy!

You are so correct in what you stated and our superstar Blain2 as always has a sob story for the management----. If the captain of a sea faring vessel takes the fall as does the captain of an airplane then why do people like Blain2 come up with excuses to support the incompetent base commanders---.

Is there a personal interest vested over here---or as I have stated many a times before---the guy is clueless about strategic warfare and pro-active approach towards security of fixed assets.

The base commander needs to face the court martial and a firing squad---this man and the one at karachi---set them up in fornt of he firing squad and then see how these generals suddenly have found newfound energy and resource to protect the assets---.

Hang the top three---rest will get in line automatically---.

Where are snipers and dragnov ?? They should hold area from towers and kill militant miles away.
Very pathetic strategy by PAF.
And Resident area near airbase

Wallah,
Fascinating isn't it---some one go tell Blain2 about it---even an average joe---the peaceful civilian knows about it as well---he also knows what it takes to have security---.

Blain2---don't you feel embarrassed and ashamed even to be on this board and have that title and post your lame excuses---I mean to say---every man has to have some character and dignity---where is yours---you have always been a failure at what you have assessed regarding the defencive and offencive capabilities of pak millitary---there has to be a point where you say---enough is enough---I cannot shame myself any more than that..

All you have posted in defence of these two base commanders is absolutely pathetic and disgusting----these men were and are incharge of billions opf dollars of assets of the milliatry---destruction of those assets has been totally embarrassing and humiliating as well as degrading for the millitry---and you have come out non-challantly for their defence---.

These two men need to be executed alongwith their 2Ic's----.

 

[Developereo]

social media.

My earlier comment was entirely about the mainstream media (MSM), but you raise some good points...

I believe that traditional, mainstream media still holds the trump cards, because the internet is not self-sustaining: the reputation of social media sites depends on the MSM. If the MSM portrays a particular social media (or any) website as a hornet's nest of loonies and conspiracy nuts, that particular site will die. There are other ways to destroy the reputation of web sites.

To follow up on a couple of your examples, Modi can say all he wants, and a certain segment of the population will follow and believe him unconditionally. But that won't last. Eventually, the honeymoon will wear off and people will want independent verification and analysis of his claims by objective, informed experts. Certainly, the experts will themselves be questioned or doubted, but it will be an exchange of analyses by people with some verified credentials, instead of random, anonymous posters.

Allow me to repeat a quote I recently posted in another thread:

“We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.” ― Robert Wilensky

The internet is still regarded as the "wonderland" where nothing is what it seems, and buyer must beware at all times.

Secondly, governments can and do exercise censorship onto social media -- much more so than they dare do to the MSM. The case of the doctored pictures of Rohingyas is an example. The GoI was quick to lambast that propaganda and clamp down on it, but it was a selective censorship. Did the GoI stop the wild claims of millions of "illegal Bangladeshis" flooding India, which was the initial catalyst that has caused a lot of bloodshed over the decades? Where does the selective censorship start and end? And whose agenda gets priority over others?

Given that all the social media sites are based in the US, they are subject to US government bias. Organizations that are deemed hostile to US interests (and marked as terrorist or otherwise persona non grata) will be blocked by US-based social media companies, while others will flourish. In other words, the US government has become the arbiter of what constitutes free speech around the world.