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Ataturk's Legacy vs Caliphate and implications for Pakistan

^You many consider Mr. Araz's words a mod edict.

We appreciate the rich arguments put forward by both sides on the issue, these things need to be talked about. But not on this thread. If so inclined, please start another thread and I'd be happy to shift your posts there.

This thread is about the MoU and Pakistani-Turkish relations in the contemporary context. Thanks.
 
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the only reason I diverged from topic was because it is a public forum

and I dont want Turks to see this thread and think that Pakistanis would ever be critical of Ataturk (who was respected a lot by our own Father-of-the-nation)

He was a great leader.....



now lets discuss Black Sharp torpedo system!
 
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Many Islamists blame Kemal Ataturk for destroying Khelafat in Turkey but they do not know the history, circumstances and the situation of Turkey in the dying days of Ottoman. Though Ottoman were the khilafat but near their end they were anything but Islamic, with lack of vision, backwardness, divided in different factions and clans, palace conspiracy, moral corruptness, full of rituals but less substance. The Ottoman were almost defeated and lost all most all of their vast empire by than west European powers and were about to be invaded, occupied and colonized. Also the betrayal of Arabs in the name of nationalism (fuelled by western colonialist powers) was another reason of their quick fall. In this crucial time of Turkey Kemal came as a uniting force who faught against the invading forces. He had to disband the Ottomal Khelafat because it was not serving the purpose of Islam nor Turkey. He established the modern Turkey state by discarding most of the rituals, tradition and historic baggage of betraying Arabs. Though I agree that he may gone a little too far in name of discarding anything Arab and some of his acts were against pure teaching of Islam or Islamic culture or system. But you have to understand the reason in perspective of the time during those days. Todays Turkey remained a predominantly Islamic country with strong Islamic belief and practice.


Just think what happened to Islamic India which was ruled 1000 years by muslim Moguls. But in the dying days of Moguls they were nothing but corrupt, spineless and weak. The end result was 200 years of colony of Britain with occupation, persecution, deprivation of muslims and then some of them (Thanks to the the vision of Jinnah we at least got Pakistan) have to live under the current pagan rules.


Also think of the current days kings and rulers of Arab kingdoms they are just in name independent or islamic. Though they are representing a vast muslim people and resources but most of them corrupt stooges of western powers. A true leader with vision and teaching of Prophet is needed in arab countries to free these vast muslim people otherwise they will be occupied, invaded or colonized like Palestine and what we saw recently happened to Iraq and Afganistan.
 
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i understand where u are going with this.

But basically, you are implying that democracy is not compatible with Islam. And I have serious reservations on this notion.


PM me, we can discuss in private. I don't want this thread getting 'de-railed' with off-topic talk

Guys
This debate is interesting and should not be carried out via PMs. Please open a separate thread and transfer these posts there.
MODS please take notice.
Araz
 
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please sir all of you are old senior members and if you guys do not take care of discipline then who else gonna care?? let us get back to main topic and all htis mustafa kemal zindabad or murdabad slogans must be left alone for some relevant topic. please thie thread is in PN section and so we should respect the rules of the forum.

regards!
 
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Ataturk abolishing the Caliphate was something that protected Pakistanis as well, yet some are too blind to see. After the Ottoman empire was defeated the Sultan Caliphe turned into a puppet of England (note that after Ataturk abolished the Caliphate the Sultan took a British ship to settle in Britain)

Now to those Ataturk haters: how would a puppet Caliphe of the British served Pakistani's? Just think for once! How would the Caliphe even serve Islam?

Mustafa Kemal burried only what was already dead or better said hostage in British hands!

what an utterly ridiculous stupid comment...

ataturk legacy is already wading away, kemal has not only undermined islam he has undermined democracy, kemalists may try to succeed but the time is near, when all kemalists will be thrown to gutter! kemal has made you turks western slaves and has destroyed your true identity!
 
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what an utterly ridiculous stupid comment...

ataturk legacy is already wading away, kemal has not only undermined islam he has undermined democracy, kemalists may try to succeed but the time is near, when all kemalists will be thrown to gutter! kemal has made you turks western slaves and has destroyed your true identity!

Shame shame shame on you.....who is more slaves to west? Government of Pakistan or Turkiye?????

You tell me!!!

Ataturk legacy is wading away???? It is MORE RELEVANT NOW!!!

More and more Pakistanis are demanding less power to the chauvinist Mullahs and more power to democratic/secular forces. Inshallah it will happen.

Look at Turkiye where it is today, without oil revenues......They invested in their population and maintained strong military parity against enemies.


I dont think you speak on behalf of average Pakistanis. Because I think average Pakistanis would agree that Ataturk was the best thing that happened to Turkish Republic.


It was the bloody wahhaby who sold out the Ottomans.....they were british agents.


You should also know that Quaid e Azam Saab was a HUGE fan of Ataturk, and his secular democratic and modern progressive views.



the Turks respect the father of their nation. Do we respect the father of our nation??? I dont think enough of us do! But that is because some of us are ingrateful people.


And if u go to Turkiye today, you see majority of the people are practicing Muslims. But they dont have religion SHOVED DOWN THEIR THROATS the way it is in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran.
 
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Shame shame shame on you.....who is more slaves to west? Government of Pakistan or Turkiye?????

You tell me!!!

Ataturk legacy is wading away???? It is MORE RELEVANT NOW!!!

More and more Pakistanis are demanding less power to the chauvinist Mullahs and more power to democratic/secular forces. Inshallah it will happen.

Look at Turkiye where it is today, without oil revenues......They invested in their population and maintained strong military parity against enemies.



I dont think you speak on behalf of average Pakistanis. Because I think average Pakistanis would agree that Ataturk was the best thing that happened to Turkish Republic.


It was the bloody wahhaby who sold out the Ottomans.....they were british agents.


You should also know that Quaid e Azam Saab was a HUGE fan of Ataturk, and his secular democratic and modern progressive views.



the Turks respect the father of their nation. Do we respect the father of our nation??? I dont think enough of us do! But that is because some of us are ingrateful people.


And if u go to Turkiye today, you see majority of the people are practicing Muslims. But they dont have religion SHOVED DOWN THEIR THROATS the way it is in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

I thought we were getting away from this crap and back to the subject?
Mod, get a grip and start deleting these posts. They are generating more heat than light.
 
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Shame shame shame on you.....who is more slaves to west? Government of Pakistan or Turkiye?????

You tell me!!!

Ataturk legacy is wading away???? It is MORE RELEVANT NOW!!!

More and more Pakistanis are demanding less power to the chauvinist Mullahs and more power to democratic/secular forces. Inshallah it will happen.

Look at Turkiye where it is today, without oil revenues......They invested in their population and maintained strong military parity against enemies.


I dont think you speak on behalf of average Pakistanis. Because I think average Pakistanis would agree that Ataturk was the best thing that happened to Turkish Republic.


It was the bloody wahhaby who sold out the Ottomans.....they were british agents.


You should also know that Quaid e Azam Saab was a HUGE fan of Ataturk, and his secular democratic and modern progressive views.



the Turks respect the father of their nation. Do we respect the father of our nation??? I dont think enough of us do! But that is because some of us are ingrateful people.


And if u go to Turkiye today, you see majority of the people are practicing Muslims. But they dont have religion SHOVED DOWN THEIR THROATS the way it is in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran.



Problem in Pakistan are not created by Mullahs or Islam. Islam is the way of life and I guess you didn't know that.

Problems in Pakistan is created by the people of Pakistan not someone from outside. Look at Malaysia, Indonesia, even Bangladesh doesn't have many problems as Pakistan.

For last 60 years Pakistan have been blaming others (West, USA, Israel, British, India, Arabs states). Pakistan need to fix the problems it has been facing for a long time.

Every other democratic government is a puppet government who only cares about loot and stealing the money from the people of Pakistan. 60+ years old Kashmir conflict and there isn't a single Muslim country that support Pakistan on this issue. Not single Arab country (Government) support Pakistan on Kashmir Issue. If a countries is internally weak (Political, Economic, lack of unity) no other country will support it. It will take a revolution to bring a change in Pakistan.

Pakistan can request to be a junior member of GCC and GAFTA to have political and economic union with Arab states while still working with Turkey and Iran. If Turkey can be a part of NATO and Russia can become a Junior member then why Pakistan can't be part of GCC & GAFTA.



Pakistan has some fundamental issues that Pakistan need to resolve as soon as possible.


1. Pakistan's main problem is self grown Extremism.

Solution: Saudi style Islamic Shura system, all the madaris, masajid, Imambargahs, Jamat Khanas, Mandirs, Churches and Gurdwaras should be under the supervision of religious affairs.
Islamic seminaries (Madaris)- should implement South Africa Seminaries curriculum.

2. Abolish medieval feudal system of Pakistan ("Feudalism has to be abolished if the country is to prosper for all, and in peace.")


3. Unity, internal cohesion and political stability (“Internal cohesion and political stability are the products of a participatory political process that is broad-based, transparent and fair, offering equal opportunities to new aspirants to political power and influence.”) De-concentration of power to strengthening internal cohesion and moderating dissent.

4a. Social Justice and Equal Opportunity: Reform political and social life, promoting socio-economic justice for ordinary people as well as provincial rights & Economic development policies. Freedom from sectarianism

4b. Decentralization of Authority from Power to the People, Community-based Economics and Economic Justice. (Develop the country so we don't have to beg West for AID.) Create 16 smaller "Super districts" instead of 4 provinces.

5a. Develop Education system similar to South Korea. We need to build 50, 000 schools and 5,000 colleges and universities.

5b. Political Education process: Educated/ internship for those recently graduated with political science degree. Educating the Politicians of tomorrow.

6. As a major political party MQM/PPP should focus on water distribution among provinces, building of new dams for water storage and electricity generation, and demand for a new and more acceptable formula for distribution of taxes between the federal government and provinces.

7. Respect for Diversity: In last 60+ years Pakistan government hasn’t solved internal incoherence, they have alienated minorities like Balochi & Sindhi and Mohajir. Political Parties should work to promote harmony between different ethnic groups in Pakistan.

8a. Improvement of Financial system on City, State and Country level, reduced corruption.

8b. Stop Corruption, stupidity and greed.
No Corrupted Politician should be allowed to run for government office. MQM, PPP and PML-N need a new political leader/Party head. There should be no permanent party leader, party should selected for 2 years term and can't be selected for more then 3 terms.

9. Utilizing E-government technology, cut-overheard, developing new policies to improve over all political process. improved government office efficiency and administration.

10. Thousand more things


Here is how you prevent Balkanization of Pakistan.

1) Remove Current corrupted puppet politician
1. Gen. Musharraf (President)
2. Gillani (PM)
3. Khurshid Qasoori (Foriegn)
4. Salman Shah (Fin.)
5. Hamid Nawaz Khan(Defence)
6. Imran Khan (Health)
7. Mustafa Kamal (Infrastructure, public works etc)

2) New political system, 4 main party System

I) United National People's Party
II)- Pakistan Socialist Democratic Party
III)- Awami National Party/National Democratic Party
IV)- Islamic democratic party (Merging Islamic Parties)


3) Change in Foreign policies.

I) Stop supporting American War.

II) Border with Afghanistan (durand line agreement was between Pashtun and British not between Pakistan. Pakistan has every right to fence the entire border with Afghnistan) Build a massive border fence (and mine) on Pakistan/Afghanistan border. Block Taliban and Drug dealer to cross into Pakistan.

Blochistan (Develop the coastal cities like Pasni, Gwader, etc. Remove all the extermist BLA from Balochistan)

III) Foreign relationship with Afghanistan should change (minimum economic support to Karzai government.)
IV) Strategic partnership with China, Russia and Iran. (Now it's the time to get closer to Russia while the west is after them. Our Presiden should visit Russia after visiting big brother China. Pakistan need to use both China and Russia to pressure India to resolve water crises and resolve 60 years old Kashmir dispute.)

V) Defense pack with China, signed formal treaties with China that China will defend Pakistan from any future attack.
VI) Resolve water crises by engaging in direct talk with India.

4) Abolish feudal system ("Feudalism has to be abolished if the country is to prosper for all, and in peace.")

5) American/British/Israel and India is trying to destabilize Pakistan to remove our Nuclear weapon and create another 1971 style civilwar situation in NWFP and Balochistan. We can't afford to lose NWFP & Balochistan. It is time to divide NWFP, Balochistan, Sindh and Punjab into smaller provinces so they can be managed easily. We need Redraw Poviciannal lines, Pakistani government rebuilding Provinces (15-35), Imran Khan also think that problem can be resolve by creating more provinces.

I) Take control of FATA, remove the tribal system. It is Pakistani land and Pakistan should control it.
1) Build more School and University in FATA area
2) Madaris in FATA should use South Africa Islamic curriculum (Islamiate, Science, math).

II) Creating 16 smaller multi-ethnic provinces removing the old provinces names

16 "Super districts"

1-Gilgat (Shia Muslim-majority, Urdu, Shina language (with several dialects), Balti dialect, a sub-dialect of Ladakhi)

2-Kashmir [Azad Kashmir , Kashmir Valley, Jammu and Aksai Chin]
(74.16% Muslim, Hindus, 23.72%, and Buddhists, 1.21%) (Urdu, Punjabi, Hindko, Mirpuri, Pahari, Gojri, Pashto and other languages)

3-Mardan (99% Muslim, Pashtu, Hindko, Pothwari, Seraiki, Punjabi (In Kohistan area - Dardic peoples including the Shina, Kohistani, Torwalis))

4-Peshawar (99% Muslim, Pashtu, Hindko, Seraiki, Urdu, Punjabi and Balochi)

5-Lahore (99% Muslim, Punjabi, Seraiki, Urdu, Pashtu)

6-Sarghda (or Mianwali) (99% Muslim, Seraiki, Punjabi, Pashtu, Balochi, Urdu)

7-Fasialabad (99% Muslim, Punjabi, Seraiki, Urdu, Balochi, Pashto and Sindhi)

8-Multan (99% Muslim, Seraiki, Punjabi and Balochi)

9- Dera Gazi Khan (99% Muslim, Seraiki, Balochi, Pashto, Brahui, Punjabi, Muhajir (Urdu speaking), (1% -> Hindu, Christian and Ahmedi)

10-Sukkar - (98% Muslim, Sindhi, Seraiki, Balochi, Punjabi, Pashto, Brahui, Muhajir (Urdu speaking), (2% -> Hindu, Christian and Ahmedi)

11-Queta - ( 99% Muslim, Pashtun are in Majority, around 20% Hazaras, 25-30% Baloch and rest are Brahui, Punjabi, Muhajir (Urdu speaking), Afghan Refugees, Hindus).

12-Larkana (will have Sindhi, Balochi and some Baruhi living together)

13-Nawabshah (Sindhi, Urdu, Balochi, Punjabi, Pashto)

14-Hydrabad (Sindhi, Urdu, Punjabi, Pashto)

15-Karachi (Urdu, Sindhi, Punjabi, Pashtu, Baruhi, Balochi)

16-Gwadar (90% Balochi, Urdu, Punjabi, Sindhi)

III) Another Option by dividing FATA & NWFP, NEW NWFP MAP

IV) Each Provincial (or "Super district") government responsible for:
1- Democratic Governance
2- Poverty Reduction (Eradicate Extreme Poverty and Hunger)
3- Crisis Prevention and Recovery
4- Energy and Environment
5- Improve Health Care system (Reduce Child Mortality /Improve Maternal Health)
6- Develop global partnership for Economy and Social development
7- Improve Educational System (No child left behind).

V) Develop Coastal area, satellite town, university towns.
VI) We need to bring those Pakistani back from Bangladesh. They should be settled in western Punjab, NWFP, Sindh area, Faisalabad, Multan, Dera Gazi Khan, Dera Ismail Khan, Mainwali, NWFP: Tanks, North/South Wazirstan, Sindh: sukkur, Nawabshah
 
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we have nothing to do with GCC or Arabs, except common faith.

Please dont view GCC as role models....they are monarchys that appease the religious groups in order to avoid coups and takeovers


we are better than that

---------- Post added at 02:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 AM ----------

PM me -- we are annoying the moderators..
 
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lol atturk hmmmmmmmmm.... one thing i can say if he was in the golden time of islam he would have not been spaired by the muslims rulers .... he is a traitor to islam ......... but in the other hand he made one of the most greatest nations ... its confusing to tell if he did good or not
 
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lol atturk hmmmmmmmmm.... one thing i can say if he was in the golden time of islam he would have not been spaired by the muslims rulers .... he is a traitor to islam ......... but in the other hand he made one of the most greatest nations ... its confusing to tell if he did good or not

You judge leaders by results they had on society and nation. Look to Turkiye today and use your own common sense..

the traitor was british-bred wahhabys who sold out the Khilafat.

Muslim rulers are irrelevant, because the Khilafat had already fallen. Ottoman Turks wanted their independence and homeland.

And they sure got it. 80+ years later Turkiye is a majority Muslim country, has strong democratic institutions, a vibrant diversified economy, a very strong military, and an independent foreign policy.


So to those who call Kemal Pasha a "traitor" are just ignorant and dont know history.

They may as well also call Jinnah Saab a traitor then; both leaders shared common ideals.





Mullahs have no stinking business interfering in politics. And this is a notion i stand by till the day I die. Religion is a private matter, NOT public.


Jinnah's Pakistan is an un-finished Revolution. And Inshallah, we will rid ourselves of ignorance --and stick the dream of Jinnah -- a secular democratic Muslim majority Pakistan where education, innovation, hard word, unity and discipline are the main values.
 
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Shame shame shame on you.....who is more slaves to west? Government of Pakistan or Turkiye?????

You tell me!!!

Ataturk legacy is wading away???? It is MORE RELEVANT NOW!!!

More and more Pakistanis are demanding less power to the chauvinist Mullahs and more power to democratic/secular forces. Inshallah it will happen.

Look at Turkiye where it is today, without oil revenues......They invested in their population and maintained strong military parity against enemies.


I dont think you speak on behalf of average Pakistanis. Because I think average Pakistanis would agree that Ataturk was the best thing that happened to Turkish Republic.


It was the bloody wahhaby who sold out the Ottomans.....they were british agents.


You should also know that Quaid e Azam Saab was a HUGE fan of Ataturk, and his secular democratic and modern progressive views.



the Turks respect the father of their nation. Do we respect the father of our nation??? I dont think enough of us do! But that is because some of us are ingrateful people.


And if u go to Turkiye today, you see majority of the people are practicing Muslims. But they dont have religion SHOVED DOWN THEIR THROATS the way it is in countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

quaid was a fan of ataturk, so why didnt pakistan become a kemalist state, with people kissing kemal's arse every time, quaid neither wanted secular state, its nothing being admiring a man, if you say quaid had a role model esp of a person like kemal, then you are degrading a great person, shame on yourself, being a pakistani
 
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quaid was a fan of ataturk, so why didnt pakistan become a kemalist state, with people kissing kemal's arse every time

is this a mature thing to say???



quaid neither wanted secular state, its nothing being admiring a man,

the way i view it, Quaid e Azam Saab wanted a homeland for Muslims, but a democratic and progressive state that treats all of its citizens ---majority and minority -- EQUALLY.


if you say quaid had a role model esp of a person like kemal, then you are degrading a great person, shame on yourself, being a pakistani

are you denying that Quaid e Azam Saab was secular in principle?



My advice to you would be to learn about Mustafa Kemal from neutral sources. See his legacy in Turkiye. Dont rely on old cliches.

If you want to blame someone for the fall of the Khilfafaat, blame the Wahhabys and the brits.

---------- Post added at 08:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 PM ----------

it was wahhaby/deobandi type people who were also against the creation of Pakistan.

dont forget that either
 
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Its amazing that people ignore the role of the Arab revolt in abolishion of the khalifate. The Arab revolt contributed to the weakening of the caliphate and so they are as much responsible for the fall of the caliphte as Ataturk is.

In my openion Ataturk did what he had to do. The caliphate had become very weak and was no more sustainable. Turkey under a weakened Caliphate would have been an easy target for the European powers, who naturally had a special grudge against tyrkey because turkey had ruled a large part of europe for along time. Had it not been for Ataturk, the allies may have conqured and divided most parts of turkey among them.
 
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