Assalamu alaikum. New member here from Khanabadosh community

[Kabira]

Pakhiwas/Changar (or gypsy as they are called in english) are not monolithic people like sweepers/musalli, I have seen even "blond" individuals among some changar/pakhiwas. Also they are more like "tribal people", so there is a lot of diversity between them depending on their tribes and location, some Pakhiwas/changar tribes look similar to musalli/sweepers but then there are other pakhiwas/changar tribes in other areas who look totally different than musalli/sweepers. Just for information both Reshma and Naseebo lal are from muslim pakhiwas/changar families and I don't think they look like musalli/sweeper women. So a changar/pakhiwas can look like anything, though majority are dark skinned since their origin is from Rajasthan india as their native language suggests but they have been roaming in Punjab and neighboring areas for centuries.

Yeah Reshma and Naseebo lal don't look like mussalis.

 

[El Sidd]

My name here is Awara Pardesi and these are not empty words to me, they are my reality.

I belong a tribe of gypsies and our origin is with the untouchable Dalit caste and I am very proud of this. My tribe is caught between India, Pakistan and Afghanistan but now since we can’t get Indian visa and Afghan removed us, we are more comfortable in Pakistan and as Pakistanis

Unlike most people from our community, my family was in better position and I am educated and settled in the UK since last 3 years and I left Pakistan in 2009. Many of our relatives do not have any shanakhti cards.

You can ask me any question you like. I had written a long message on detail about the condition of my people but let us first start with introduction!

I am happy to be here

do you know a good witch?

 

[Awara Pardesi]

Wow, what a write-up!

You write very well, and though your education on paper might not be too much, but you do have great depth in your personality, and you have very strong observation. I'm sorry I'm not as eloquent as you, so can't do justice to this beautiful post and it's author of course.

I'm a pushtun, zarsanga's village was very close to our village, she even spoke our dilect of Pashto.

I can ascertain whatever you have said about the treatment your community gets, and truly feel sorry for that. But again, you being born into your family was not your decision or of your choosing, neither was mine. I think, if you turn back to your Allah, He would someday (when your frequency is right) talk back to you, He might even grant you something that all of your grievances would alleviate, in this very life. you truly have potential for that, to become like that Sufi buzurg of your elders, of whom you are the seventh generation.

Baki logon ka Gila nhi kren, logon me Kia rakha he aj kal?

Our Lord, the Almighty, commands everything, He alone can pacify broken hearts and He alone has answers to everybody's grievances.

Thank you!

Wow its good to meet someone from that region! We also used to speak this dialect of Pashto, its very beautiful and sweet, but now many of our younger generation speak with ‘Pukhto’ accent because of travelling to different regions.

Aap ki baat sahih hai

Inshallah

It looks to me a troll fake account, most probably a gangu because he is using a lot of terms "unknown" to pakistanis but part of everyday speech in ganguland.

To a person like me, nationality, borders etc. are meaningless. India and Pakistan are the same. They are equal. I cannot support one over the other. The history of my people is much longer than that of modern nation-states. I am Pakistani, Indian and Afghan,
but yet at the same time, I am none of the above. You will not understand

I didn't know that Pakistani gypsies existed. This post was very informative and I'm truly sorry about all the hardships that your community faces. I have had a lot of dealings with Roma Gypsies. I was assigned to a taskforce where I investigated gypsy gangs that came to South Florida and targeted senior citizens. Their society was very secretive and it was extremely difficult to investigate. After the arrests it took me six months to find someone to translate the jail calls (Romani to English).

Several such groups exist in Pakistan.

That is interesting, where were they from originally? As most of the Romani gypsies in Europe don’t speak their original language anymore and speak the official languages of their country

You are exaggerating some bits. Saying you will be better of as hindu, lol High caste hindus lynch dalits for smallest of things. The scale of discrimination experienced by dalits under hindu caste is even worse then what Blacks experienced in south Africa.

The mussalis not being allowed to sit in chair isn't a thing in our area from what I've seen. Though I've heard this is common practice in Lahore region. You are also mistaken that this community has not progressed, it has. Though only those who settled down. The nomads are poor everywhere. Its also true what ever name this community adopted in different regions from Afghanistan to Pakistan became insult eventually.

Your knowledge is pretty good overall on this community even if its troll post.



You are talking about from experience right in KP right? Its hard to believe pashtun would follow this hindu like customs. Yes mussalis is a insult and they are discriminated in villages. Its also a fact this community has always changed their castes in every region they went over the centuries but it eventually became insult because of work they do in villages.

Mussalis have build homes when ever they wanted, please post some links. Otherwise you are sounding like troll. I can post links of how dalits get lynched in India for riding horse in wedding and casting shadow on brahmin. The great religion you want to revert back to. Its also a fact that in India even owning house in gated communities depend on castes and religion.

In Pakistan is more of money thing, if you have it you can buy or build anything. Historically mussalis were in disadvantage because they migrated to villages as menial workers, they never owned land. But many of them now days get educated and move to cities.

When did I ever say we would be better of as Hindus? Hinduism is the worst religion for us. Did you know Hindu god Rama was applauded for beheading a poor fakir of lower caste who tried to do ‘tapasya’ (meditiation)? How could we accept such a god?

Even in Afghanistan, these type of attitudes prevail, let alone KPK.

Arguably settled Musalli are in a better position than the ones who are not settled.

Brother which part of the UK do you live in? I'd like to guide you to an intelligent sunni scholar under who's tutelage you can learn about Islam in a proper academic manner. A lot of the standard molvi types are not that educated in general and aren't well placed to support you (or anyone really). There is too much judgement and arrogance and assumption in some molvi, but we do have hundreds of excellent British Muslim imams coming through who are able to teach Islam in a relevant manner.

If you are on facebook, add Shaykh Muhammad Aslam as a friend. His posts are inspirational and as a person, his manner lives up to what he preaches.

I live near Brighton. Thanks a lot for your good intentions brother but for now I would rather not contact any maulvi.

I still believe this guy is an indian imposter, ask him what are gypsies called in "punjabi" language in Pakistan. There are certain words that we use to refer to them in Gujranwala and the surrounding districts.



Yes Dalits will be very "well off" as "hindus" just like in this video

I do not speak Punjabi. Za pa Pakhto k khabare kawaly sham

 

[Crusher]

To a person like me, nationality, borders etc. are meaningless. India and Pakistan are the same. They are equal.

So confirmed indian gangu, sending you to my ignore list which is mostly inhabited by indian gangus

 

[Awara Pardesi]

"Musalli" is a term that in Lahore and Gujranwala areas is used only for muslim converts from "sweeper chuhra community", these guys were part of the society and spoke punjabi langauge.

Gypsies on the other hand in our region have various designations, they are called "changar", "Pakhiwas" (birds like nomadic lifestyle), Chuggiyan walay (jhuggi people) etc. Their principle language was always a form of "Rajasthani" language and before 1947 they regularly used to travel between Rajasthan and other areas of india through punjab to as far west as afghanistan. They were engaged in the trade of "ghugu goray", "chooriyan", "chhaj" for sorting out rice, "mooray" (for sitting). I remember in my childhood in 80s, I used to buy "ghoriyan" (horses) made of wood/paper/cloth from them. They were also the people who used to come to our annual mela in our village to do circus stuff etc. And many of them actually were "fair skinned" though most of them were dark skinned like indians but they have nothing to do with punjabi "sweepers". Singers like Reshma and Naseebo Lal are from these "Pakhiwas" communities.

In the past I think most of them didn't follow any "mainstream religion" and were like any primitive pagans or animists. I know one community in our Gujranwala who used to set their "jhuggis" annually in empty place along a road in an affluent area of Gujranwala in 80s, with time they started "settling" on that place permanently and made a kachi abadi in later years and now they have permanently settled there (in other words they have done qabza on that empty space around the road). Now they call themselves and their new "basti" as "Nau Mulim town" or "newly muslim town", I saw them in recent times to even participate in 10th muharram jaloos in the past years.

An interesting memory from my life is that when I was child and wouldn't cut my hair or take a showere for long time, then my mother used to say me in punjabi.

"Ja ja kay waal kata tay na, kay tun pakhiwasan wangar naan to toba keeti ay" (there is a punjabi sense of humor in this sentence).

"Go get a hair cut and take a shower, or else have you done "tauba" from taking shower ever in your life like a pakhiwas (gypsy changar)".

I think muslim pakhiwas/changars used to be called "deendar" in our area to differentiate them from the "musalli" which was designation for muslim converts from chuhra/sweeper community.

Here is a funny video of a Baba (called baba kuki) from a village of Gujranwala who is talking about some "deendar" guys teasing him in this video.

Good observations you have made and I agree with most.

However, unlike Punjab where all these groups like settled sweepers and gypsies have quite different culture, in Pakhtun areas and Afghanistan, we are all classified together because we are grouped as ’Jattan’.

Musalli and Kutana are converted from sweepers and the rest are gypsies as you say pakkhi waas. We call Pakki Raj. Ultimately all are of same origin and indeed some are fair, some are black

So confirmed indian gangu, sending you to my ignore list which is mostly inhabited by indian gangus

Taa ghunday spak khalko sara ghagedal aur bahas kawal zma da bas khabara na da. Za staray gharib yama au taaqat na laram.

Yes you are right, changar speak differently then old settled mussalis who speak like rest of villagers. Their kids come from near by towns to collect plastic bottles, iron etc from our village. Their lingo sounded like seraiki. Though the ones I've seen look similar to mussalis.

Yes saraiki (we call it Inku or Jatki) and rajasthani were spoken by our elders but now we speak Pashto, Urdu and Farsi

Pakhiwas/Changar (or gypsy as they are called in english) are not monolithic people like sweepers/musalli, I have seen even "blond" individuals among some changar/pakhiwas. Also they are more like "tribal people", so there is a lot of diversity between them depending on their tribes and location, some Pakhiwas/changar tribes look similar to musalli/sweepers but then there are other pakhiwas/changar tribes in other areas who look totally different than musalli/sweepers. Just for information both Reshma and Naseebo lal are from muslim pakhiwas/changar families and I don't think they look like musalli/sweeper women. So a changar/pakhiwas can look like anything, though majority are dark skinned since their origin is from Rajasthan india as their native language suggests but they have been roaming in Punjab and neighboring areas for centuries.

Even in our tribe some are fair, some are dark. Majortiry are daker than typical Pakhtuns but some are blond or green eyes as you have observed. I am what we call in Pashto ghanam rang or wheat colour

do you know a good witch?

Warning: Don’t get involved in all of that!

Waise agar kuch karana hai, tou private mein message bhejein.

 

[Apocalypse]

My name here is Awara Pardesi and these are not empty words to me, they are my reality.

I belong a tribe of gypsies and our origin is with the untouchable Dalit caste and I am very proud of this. My tribe is caught between India, Pakistan and Afghanistan but now since we can’t get Indian visa and Afghan removed us, we are more comfortable in Pakistan and as Pakistanis

Unlike most people from our community, my family was in better position and I am educated and settled in the UK since last 3 years and I left Pakistan in 2009. Many of our relatives do not have any shanakhti cards.

You can ask me any question you like. I had written a long message on detail about the condition of my people but let us first start with introduction!

I am happy to be here

Greetings Awara Pardesi!

A fantastic write-up and please do not pay attention to the trolls and the haters. Glad to know that we have someone coming from the less publicized communities here and someone who is not disconnected after going abroad and takes pride in his heritage and past. More power to you, and please do continue with these written accounts you have a knack for writing.

 

[Awara Pardesi]

Greetings Awara Pardesi!

A fantastic write-up and please do not pay attention to the trolls and the haters. Glad to know that we have someone coming from the less publicized communities here and someone who is not disconnected after going abroad and takes pride in his heritage and past. More power to you, and please do continue with these written accounts you have a knack for writing.

Thank you so much for your appreciation, support and kind words!

A lot of research and cross-verification is needed when writing about such communities.

The saddest thing for me, is that there is no unity among these tribes. They label each other with the same words that the mainstream population uses for them as a whole, and each groups perceives themselves to be higher than the others. Unfortunately, this is a major obstacle in mobilising these depressed classes.

While I have no actual intention of venturing out into the world of politics, particularly in a country like Pakistan, I do have some ideas that can help our situation.

Even the existence of caste in Pakistan must be acknowledged. There should be a system of reservation of some kind like in India. But I am aware of how people in Sindh suffer under the quota system so that is not the way to go. The government also does discriminate against the Dalit Hindus in Pakistan and sees the caste Hindus as the face of the Hindu community while they only make up a small percentage. Similarly, the rich and higher caste Christians do not help the poor sweepers. We need change in both the mentality of common people and the administration.

I am probably the only one who wants to unite all the marginalized groups under one political identity. And I am also the sole propagator (as a member of these tribes) of the theory that all these share a common origin.

The Bhil tribes looks down on others. Settled people look down on Bhils. Everyone looks down on sweepers. Pakhtunized sweepers look down on the Punjabi ones. Pakki Raj gypsies look down on other gypsies. Gypsies look down on sweepers. Sweepers look down on gypsies. Musallis look down on Christian sweepers. High caste Muslims look down on Musallis. I can go on and on.

The original message of Islam and modern Western concept of human rights are both alien in Pakistan, a country whose identity and ethos are caught between the two worlds of Islam and Gora sahibs.

 

[313ghazi]

Thank you!

Wow its good to meet someone from that region! We also used to speak this dialect of Pashto, its very beautiful and sweet, but now many of our younger generation speak with ‘Pukhto’ accent because of travelling to different regions.

Aap ki baat sahih hai

Inshallah



To a person like me, nationality, borders etc. are meaningless. India and Pakistan are the same. They are equal. I cannot support one over the other. The history of my people is much longer than that of modern nation-states. I am Pakistani, Indian and Afghan,
but yet at the same time, I am none of the above. You will not understand



Several such groups exist in Pakistan.

That is interesting, where were they from originally? As most of the Romani gypsies in Europe don’t speak their original language anymore and speak the official languages of their country



When did I ever say we would be better of as Hindus? Hinduism is the worst religion for us. Did you know Hindu god Rama was applauded for beheading a poor fakir of lower caste who tried to do ‘tapasya’ (meditiation)? How could we accept such a god?

Even in Afghanistan, these type of attitudes prevail, let alone KPK.

Arguably settled Musalli are in a better position than the ones who are not settled.



I live near Brighton. Thanks a lot for your good intentions brother but for now I would rather not contact any maulvi.



I do not speak Punjabi. Za pa Pakhto k khabare kawaly sham

Good luck trying to find on in Brighton!

Told it's a nice town, never been myself. Is there much of a Pakistani community there?

You can always join online online courses. I recommend https://www.seekersguidance.org/course-catalog/#tab-id-1

In fact gents I mention these for everyone.

Also something people might not know but you can do a lot of free mini courses in all sorts of subjects for free via future learn.

https://www.futurelearn.com/

 

[NaqsheYaar]

So confirmed indian gangu, sending you to my ignore list which is mostly inhabited by indian gangus

Don't fool around man, it seems you have seen nothing in life except for going to school, playing around with friends from your street and your PlayStation.

He is the most genuine person on the whole bloody PDF.

Thank you!

Wow its good to meet someone from that region! We also used to speak this dialect of Pashto, its very beautiful and sweet, but now many of our younger generation speak with ‘Pukhto’ accent because of travelling to different regions.

Aap ki baat sahih hai

Inshallah



To a person like me, nationality, borders etc. are meaningless. India and Pakistan are the same. They are equal. I cannot support one over the other. The history of my people is much longer than that of modern nation-states. I am Pakistani, Indian and Afghan,
but yet at the same time, I am none of the above. You will not understand



Several such groups exist in Pakistan.

That is interesting, where were they from originally? As most of the Romani gypsies in Europe don’t speak their original language anymore and speak the official languages of their country



When did I ever say we would be better of as Hindus? Hinduism is the worst religion for us. Did you know Hindu god Rama was applauded for beheading a poor fakir of lower caste who tried to do ‘tapasya’ (meditiation)? How could we accept such a god?

Even in Afghanistan, these type of attitudes prevail, let alone KPK.

Arguably settled Musalli are in a better position than the ones who are not settled.



I live near Brighton. Thanks a lot for your good intentions brother but for now I would rather not contact any maulvi.



I do not speak Punjabi. Za pa Pakhto k khabare kawaly sham

Khudai Paak de khushaala aw abaad lara!

Yes it's a very sweet and slow dialect, glad to know that you can speak it.

May Allah be with you, may He be very kind to you!

 

[Wa Muhammada]

Thank you. We are mostly invisible to the majority

Bro
Any relation to the Romanian gypsies who have invaded the UK?

 

[Awara Pardesi]

This is a video (in Pashto) that shows how a tribe in Lakki Marwat lives and celebrates a wedding and people give interviews about their situation.

If you can’t understand, when the anchor asks them how their culture is different from Pakhtuns, they say we are the same ‘brothers of the Kalima. The only difference is that God made us to be born poor and ‘ajiz’.’

The politicians only remembers them when they need votes

Bro
Any relation to the Romanian gypsies who have invaded the UK?

The shortest answer I can give to your question is that they have been separated from us for over a thousand years, maybe a few thousand years.

Let’s see what happens with Brexit

Don't fool around man, it seems you have seen nothing in life except for going to school, playing around with friends from your street and your PlayStation.

He is the most genuine person on the whole bloody PDF.



Khudai Paak de khushaala aw abaad lara!

Yes it's a very sweet and slow dialect, glad to know that you can speak it.

May Allah be with you, may He be very kind to you!

Dera manana ror jana, Khuday pak de hum kamyab ulara!

Another rare video in Pashto showing the dire situation of these people

This last video is from a tribe related to the one which I belong.

There is also the question of women’s rights. In our communities women have equal participation or sometimes they are the leaders whereas mainstream society is male dominated. Of we settle and lose our culture then the rights and status of women may also suffer

I am not in favour of assimilating to the extent where we lose our which is thousands of years old and some of it might be remnants from the aboriginal people of South Asia

 

[Wow]

Welcome brother

 

[Awara Pardesi]

These are two of the most popular Pashto singers but if you saw them on the street you wouldn’t think they are ‘Pathan’. Many times even Pakhtuns don’t recognize us when we go somewhere and talk to us in Urdu and then we surpise them that we speak Pashto and we also consider ourselves part of Afghan or Pakhtun nation

These people are the ancestors of the Romanian gypsies

Welcome brother

Thanks!

 

[Awara Pardesi]

Our people have made the biggest contribution in Pashto music because traditionally tribal Pashtuns did not pursue musical careers and these gypsies were the entertainers. They were called Dom. Afghani people still sing ‘da zamung zeba watan day da Afghanistan day’ and this song was composed and originally sung by one such person called Ustad Awalmir. Actually Awalmir was not from a nomadic tribe. He was a Kharabati. Kharabat was an area of Kabul where musicians lived. They were also the barbers. They were settled there from many generations but originally from India. They were brought by the king. Their origin was the same. During the wars this neighborhood was destroyed and people were displaced. It is being rebuilt but will not be the same.

 

[Kabira]

As a broken and vagrant people, we have been robbed of our collective identities and dignities. We are the original, indigenous inhabitants of the land and now we are waking up. We can no longer stay quiet and humiliated. The time has come for us to regain what we have lost; our names, our traditions and our rightful place in society.

Indigenous to south asia? I agree with. But Pakistan? Not really. Like you said gypsy old language is more like Rajasthani. And mussalis have adopted language of villages they settled in. Another thing is how are you so sure all these people have same origin? India is abundant with such people and they could all have different origins, from dom to musalis.

Its clear that south KP gypsy groups known as jats/kutana have migrated from Rajasthan>South punjab>south KP/Bannu DI Khan. While northen Indus settled musalis likely came from gangetic plains.