Ashura 2015 - Graphic images captured of Islamic ritual of self-flagellation

[forcetrip]

Its now a tool left for the uneducated masses to show their strength by wasting precious resources. Some throw away money by buying expensive cows and goats for Eid at 4 times the cost of a kilo of meat and then having kids watch it have its head sliced off. An animal they were encouraging to be close to all month. Feeding, nourishing and running around with it. While some throw away their precious life saving blood on the streets. If you want to save your children from being desensitized it should be a criminal offense to show or make them do either of these ridiculous activities. It is not allowed even in the shia religion. To hurt or cut oneself is strictly forbidden. This is plain Jahalat, it has nothing to do with any religion. These are just additions. The actual muharram is a series of majalis which even we encourage and share the story of the day that good stood up against evil. Its not just a shia mourning.

 

[Jango]

Can the friends from across the border kindly keep their comments to themselves, especially regarding stuff of which they have no idea of (in the majority cases). Why do you folks have to poke your noses everywhere?

 

[haviZsultan]

So it's the fault of the parents (in your case) that they forced you to watch it, against your will.

Islam ko kyun gali dete ho?

I am not against Islam nor have I given a gali to Islam. I am against some rituals. Allama Iqbal advocated something called ijtehad. It was an ideology where scholars got together and thought about aspects of their faith critically. None of them said I am absolutely right and am the khalifa but instead went about saying "I may be wrong" and then presented their point of view.Look at the average mullah today-fatwa after fatwa after fatwah. We haven't even crossed the point where we accept other sects as muslim within sunni branch let alone shias. When we can't accept each other what do we expect?

Certain concepts in Islam were based on a time and period when people were uncivilized. For example arabs would marry many women. They were limited to 4 and if we were to ask Allah now it would be only one marriage allowed. So certain beliefs as time change change as well. That is all I am saying. Some things might change if we practice ijtehad and ask Allah for guidance. A thing banned would be smoking. This is all immense introspection. I might be wrong.

As for my sympathy for shias, well I strongly think that they should be provided equal rights.

 

[Jango]

I am not against Islam nor have I given a gali to Islam. I am against some rituals. Allama Iqbal advocated something called ijtehad. It was an ideology where scholars got together and thought about aspects of their faith critically. None of them said I am absolutely right and am the khalifa but instead went about saying "I may be wrong" and then presented their point of view.

Certain concepts in Islam were based on a time and period when people were uncivilized. For example arabs would marry many women. They were limited to 4 and if we were to ask Allah now it would be only one marriage allowed. So certain beliefs as time change change as well. That is all I am saying. Some things might change if we practice ijtehad and ask Allah for guidance. A thing banned would be smoking. This is all immense introspection. I might be wrong.

As for my sympathy for shias, well I strongly think that they should be provided equal rights.

Ijtehad isn't to be done on something as black and white as sacrifice on Eid.

Sacrifice of an animal isn't a man made ritual or whatever, which got evolved over time...it is written in the Quran, plain and simple. You do not do Ijtehad on such things.

Your parents forced you to watch an animal getting slaughtered, not Islam. So why blame Islam for this practice? According to Islam, you are free to watch it or not.

 

[MilSpec]

I have seen this in a couple of movies before if I recall, what is the cultural/religious significance of this?

 

[Zibago]

Of course I have. I am not against eating them at all. I made my stance clear in the last post. Check it out. I just don't want my kid to see this wanton act of violence and that also on a hapless animal. There is the concept of animal rights in Islam by the way.

As for the thread... it has become the same gutter I feared it would become. How can we call ourselves muslims when we cannot step beyond our sectarian and national differences. Saudis and Iranians fighting on this site is no new deal but it worries me since we can't focus on nations like America Israel and India which have as a state policy oppressed their muslim populations and if not then bombed muslim populations thousands of miles away.

Grow up guys. We should all work for muslim unity.

Yep @2800 @OTTOMAN and @Saif al-Arab our differences in sects will remain but please use civil language when discussing Islam

 

[Syed Hussain]

"Tatbir" or self harming is stated to be completely "Haram" by the mainstream authorities in Shia Islam. Majority of Shia muslims around the world either follow Syed Ali Hussaini Sistani(Iraq) or Syed Ali Khamenai(Iran) and the most of the associated scholars with major following are also related to both of them and they have clearly stated it to be haram.

 

[haviZsultan]

Ijtehad isn't to be done on something as black and white as sacrifice on Eid.

Sacrifice of an animal isn't a man made ritual or whatever, which got evolved over time...it is written in the Quran, plain and simple. You do not do Ijtehad on such things.

Your parents forced you to watch an animal getting slaughtered, not Islam. So why blame Islam for this practice? According to Islam, you are free to watch it or not.

My parents weren't at fault. I was. Hell if that can be said for a 5-7 year old kid. I mean there is a fascination with bakreid. If I didn't watch it I would be called a pussy. No offense.

Lets be clear here. My grudge is not with Islam. Arguing for certain changes is not equivalent to blaming Islam. I think its our thinking that needs to change. We should promote concepts like free thought, independent choice and advocacy of equal rights. These are things which our leaders barely have interest in. A person who advocates any of these ideas is labelled anti Islam when he is anything but. Why do we not know of lions of Islam like Ibn Rushd? Anyways do I have to be confirming to orthodox thought to be a muslim? I don't see how I am blaming Islam. I am blaming a ritual that can be done in any way possible in the eyes of followers. I am challenging that thinking that everyone is supposed to confirm to one ideology in Islam.

Anyway its my choice. I think the work of qurbani should be the butchers concern. Both the person who paid for the qurbani and his kid shouldn't have to watch it-no one should unless he is a doctor or butcher or something or sees dead cut up bodies constantly and needs to get used to it.

 

[Jango]

Anyway its my choice. I think the work of qurbani should be the butchers concern. Both the person who paid for the qurbani and his kid shouldn't have to watch it-no one should unless he is a doctor or butcher or something or sees dead cut up bodies constantly and needs to get used to it.

Please don't change the topic...

Only your last paragraph is relevant to the discussion at hand...and again, Islam doesn't force you or your kid to watch it...so why then ban this 'ritual' as you called it?

 

[haviZsultan]

Please don't change the topic...

Only your last paragraph is relevant to the discussion at hand...and again, Islam doesn't force you or your kid to watch it...so why then ban this 'ritual' as you called it?

This debate is going no where so I will say "to you be your faith (or views) and to me be mine."

 

[RoadRunner401]

Jango correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this thread against forum rules. Specially started by
Well known bigot

 

[TankMan]

I have seen this in a couple of movies before if I recall, what is the cultural/religious significance of this?

Some Shia Muslims believe in 're-enacting' the pain felt by Imam Hussein at the battle of Karbala and this is basically a way of mourning.

This practice doesn't exist in Sunni Islam because self-harm is forbidden in the Quran and there is no Hadith or command from the Prophet (s.a.w) that says you should harm yourself to mourn - he never did anything like this, even though he lost many people dear to him. Many Shias do not practice it either, for the same reasons.

Well if that is condemned another thing to condemn is the bakra eid. An animal has its head cut off and we consider it a religious thing. I think there has to be some form of reformation in Islam. The loss of Ijtehad was attributed to the fall of muslims by Allama Iqbal. We lost our way somewhere so its clear we need reformation.

I am saying this because as a kid I have watched the grisly act of a cow or goat being slaughtered, a sharp razor run across its neck as it struggled violently. It gives the mesage that violence is a part of us.

Ijtehad does not apply to things as clear and spelled out as Eid ul Azha - and nowhere does it say you need to watch it if you don't want to watch it.

Humans have slaughtered animals for food ever since humans existed - it's a perfectly natural process. Only in this case, some of the meat is given to the poor and shared by families, which makes it a happy occasion. You don't need to watch the animal being slaughtered if you don't want to, but some people prefer to perform the sacrifice themselves - if the whole practice was to be "reformed" and "regulated" in a way that only butchers can handle the animal, what's the point of the sacrifice and how is it any different than simply going to a shop and buying meat?

Why ''condemn'' the entire festival just because you don't want to watch it?

As for "violence being a part of us", people are going to be eating meat anyways, and meat doesn't grow on trees. They might as well see the reality as to how that meat is obtained. So yes, in that sense, violence is a part of humans.

But if someone doesn't want to see it, there's no obligation.

Also, the animal shouldn't be struggling violently in a proper sacrifice, it's supposed to be quick and painless.

 

[haviZsultan]

Some Shia Muslims believe in 're-enacting' the pain felt by Imam Hussein at the battle of Karbala and this is basically a way of mourning.

This practice doesn't exist in Sunni Islam because self-harm is forbidden in the Quran and there is no Hadith or command from the Prophet (s.a.w) that says you should harm yourself to mourn - he never did anything like this, even though he lost many people dear to him. Many Shias do not practice it either, for the same reasons.

Ijtehad does not apply to things as clear and spelled out as Eid ul Azha - and nowhere does it say you need to watch it if you don't want to watch it.

Humans have slaughtered animals for food ever since humans existed - it's a perfectly natural process. Only in this case, some of the meat is given to the poor and shared by families, which makes it a happy occasion. You don't need to watch the animal being slaughtered if you don't want to, but some people prefer to perform the sacrifice themselves - if the whole practice was to be "reformed" and "regulated" in a way that only butchers can handle the animal, what's the point of the sacrifice and how is it any different than simply going to a shop and buying meat?

Why ''condemn'' the entire festival just because you don't want to watch it?

As for "violence being a part of us", people are going to be eating meat anyways, and meat doesn't grow on trees. They might as well see the reality as to how that meat is obtained. So yes, in that sense, violence is a part of humans.

But if someone doesn't want to see it, there's no obligation.

Also, the animal shouldn't be struggling violently in a proper sacrifice, it's supposed to be quick and painless.

See this is happening ever since I jumped into the thread. Maybe I shouldn't have or I should have been more articulate before and explained my views.

I am not against Bakra eid. It is part of our religion. I am merely against toddlers and children watching the ritual or even people who are not made for war where a bullet pierces the eye or a shell rips you to a thousand pieces. As I have said it is justified as the animal goes straight to jannat and the meat is given to the poor. Then it is an Islamic festival where we gather together. I am also not against the eating of meat.

But just the process. I don't think self flagellation is good nor do I think animal slaughter should be done by anyone but a relevent person-the butcher. Thats my view-I am imposing it on nobody

Do note I am also not for a "ban" on watching cow/goat/camel/whatever slaughter. its the persons choice if he wants to watch it-I mean we can't ban something people want to do and especially when there is a religious aspect... its like banning hijabs in france or minarets in netherlands. I am just in for reviewing things, liberality and questioning and asking Allah again for guidance. The voice in your heart is the voice of Allah it is said. It is my personal belief. Would I ban it against the wishes of the people. Of course not. Just as I would not bring secularism unless the people demand it. I am not condemning the entire festival-just this one aspect for it.

In the past everyone had to do things themselves. They slaughtered the cow they bought from a trader themselves, the chicken or whatever. Today is the age of specialization. We have butchers for that. So it is not necessary for us to take part in the sacrifice personally. However if one wants to I cannot and will not stop him-its as free thought goes. However as is common I have the right to believe the tradition is good or bad and express my opinion. I think a lot would change if we listened to the voice in our hearts. Allah guides us all. I believe in this but I am not imposing it. People want to take personal part in the slaughter of their qurbani animal and cut it themselves-its their free will and I cannot and will not interfere.

 

[Icewolf]

I don't think it's banned in Pakistan, maybe I'm wrong. But it really should be.

 

[Zibago]

I don't think it's banned in Pakistan, maybe I'm wrong. But it really should be.

Nope its allowed just google Rawalpindi Zanjir Zani