As Iraq's Kurds eye statehood, a border takes shape

[KediKesenFare3]

nope

Right, secular parts of our society have a critical approach to such ideas. But this does not change the fact that large parts of the religious and nationalist classes are in love with this idea.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/10/23...tionalists-want-ottoman-borders-iraq-erdogan/

 

[T-123456]

Turkiye would never have accepted a Kurdish state on its border but due to pressure from president Bush(Northern Iraq is Bush’s only success story in Iraq) Erdogan agreed to it.
The KRG would ''eradicate'' the PKK from Northern Iraq and in return Turkiye would be friendly with the KRG(it would remain under Bagdads rule),of course the KRG never did anything against the PKK which was expected and known by Erdogan but he found a way to sell it to the Turkish people(business opportunities,oil and gas).
As we know now,the KRG will declare independence from Iraq and with support from the US and Israel,it will be strong enough to defend itself against ''enemies''.

 

[Mucahit]

nope

Erdoğan is ready to accept a Kurdistan in Iraq but not Turks.

Kurds have done some massacres on Turkmens after the US invasion through peshmerga and yet we keep supporting them.

They can have an autonomy in Iraq but should never be allowed to have an independent state.

Fun fact is that when the Western powers would leave Iraq right now, the Kurds would be helpless and lraqi government would most likely intervene and take control of some territories.

lt's also really thrilling to see how Saudis support Kurdish separatism throughout the region...Just 3 days ago l saw pictures of PKK militias celebrating their foundation ln Saudia Arabia.

 

[Serpentine]

You don't get it. By supporting conservative, Sunni and pro-Turkish groups among the Kurdish population we have the opportunity to fight back PKK in Turkey and within the separatist Kurdish ideological frame abroad.

It is a simple calculation. If we support Barzani, what does we get in return? Oil, gaz, weaker PKK, delimited Iranian influence. This debate is very advanced in the Turkish society. Some are even ready to accept a pro-Barzani Kurdistan (North Iraq) within the borders of Turkey with extensive self-government rights.

To tell the true, it is not in our interest to make such a farreaching step at this moment. But, who knows, the hole situation could change even tomorrow. And, no, Iran won't fight Turkey. In fact, Tehran couldn't do anything in this case. You may handle the Kurdish terror groups in Iran so far but this is Turkey we are talking about. You won't be able to fight the Kurds, contain the Turkish-Azeri irredentism, kill the Balouch movement, stand up against GCC members and handle Israeli/US interventions and support Shias abroad at the very same time.

I wonder whether you are daydreaming or actually wrote this post like this is actually the 'reality' you believe in. One would be too naive to think Iraq's Kurdistan will always remain in hands of Barzani. There are already strong anti-Barzani groups of Goran and PUK and strong opposition among Kurdish people against Barzani's quasi-dictatorship. And you are also too naive to think you have stronger influence in Iraqi Kurdistan than Iran, even now that the pawn, Barzani is ruling it. Barzani's rule is too fragile to build long term plans over it and it seems you haven't understood that by now. It shouldn't be forgotten that it was Iran that saved Barzani's arse back in 2014 and first country to help him, not his mentors in Turkey who didn't help them (and neither the Turkmen).

Why do you think Turkey has a large base in North Iraq? Why do you think they are training Peshmergas, Shia Turkmens and Sunni Arabs?

Training Shia Turkmen? Get real. Turkey left not only Shia Turkmen, but actually Sunnis and Kurds too when ISIS attacked them in 2014, you can't sell this guardianship of Turkmen hoax to anyone within slightest information about what actually has happened in Iraq in past 2 years.

And, no, Iran won't fight Turkey

Who talked about war? This is not Call of Duty, no need to quickly jump to war scenario fanboyism. No war would be needed to prevent an stable and independent Kurdistan with Barzani's clan permanent rule over it, you can be sure of that.

You won't be able to fight the Kurds, contain the Turkish-Azeri irredentism, kill the Balouch movement, stand up against GCC members and handle Israeli/US interventions and support Shias abroad at the very same time.

Who talked about fighting Kurds? Kurds are our brothers and sisters, but that doesn't mean we will allow a pawn to have his own state in Iraq with no problem.

 

[Glass]

Thats my point despite us having problems with iraqis i dont back kurds i dont trust these people. We should have better relationship with iraq then with kurds and for that iraqis have to to business with us. i also believe that turkmens (especially the shias) are in better hands among the iraqis then with kurds. Kurds are rats they will do anything to gain statehood i mean u see how they raped the whole alphabet when the suicide bombings happened (Pkk went TAK, pkk in syria ypg in iraq ybs etc) those are people u shouldnt trust and i think alot of turks agree here. Iraq has to back off from PKK tho.

Erdoğan is ready to accept a Kurdistan in Iraq but not Turks.

Kurds have done some massacres on Turkmens after the US invasion through peshmerga and yet we keep supporting them.

They can have an autonomy in Iraq but should never be allowed to have an independent state.

Fun fact is that when the Western powers would leave Iraq right now, the Kurds would be helpless and lraqi government would most likely intervene and take control of some territories.

lt's also really thrilling to see how Saudis support Kurdish separatism throughout the region...Just 3 days ago l saw pictures of PKK militias celebrating their foundation ln Saudia Arabia.

Right, secular parts of our society have a critical approach to such ideas. But this does not change the fact that large parts of the religious and nationalist classes are in love with this idea.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/10/23...tionalists-want-ottoman-borders-iraq-erdogan/

Both religions and nationalists agree that the land should be annexed by turkey but not the people. Especially nationalists arent fond of the idea of having more kurds in turkey

 

[Mucahit]

Thats my point despite us having problems with iraqis i dont back kurds i dont trust these people. We should have better relationship with iraq then with kurds and for that iraqis have to to business with us. i also believe that turkmens (especially the shias) are in better hands among the iraqis then with kurds. Kurds are rats they will do anything to gain statehood i mean u see how they raped the whole alphabet when the suicide bombings happened (Pkk went TAK, pkk in syria ypg in iraq ybs etc) those are people u shouldnt trust and i think alot of turks agree here. Iraq has to back off from PKK tho.

Yes, l agree.

Also we can't really know how long Barzani will stay in power, what if he's gone?

As far as l know most Kurdish opposition parties supports PKK against Turkey, what if they come to power?

if we recognize them as a state we would only create more problems for ourselves.

 

[Glass]

exactly. We need influence in iraq though. maybe heavily supporting shia turkmen?

 

[KediKesenFare3]

Overestimating Turkey's influence in this case, Turkey doesn't have much to say about this.

Right, Turkey is too weak to implement this project on her own. But, you simply don't understand my arguments. Ankara wouldn't fight all alone. They would use many groups and sub groups within Iraq and Iran together with powerful foreign nations like USA to keep Iran at bay. Iran, of course!, would handle the situation at the end but during this time the world would create unchangeable precedents.

 

[Baybars Han]

You don't get it. By supporting conservative, Sunni and pro-Turkish groups among the Kurdish population we have the opportunity to fight back PKK in Turkey and within the separatist Kurdish ideological frame abroad.

It is a simple calculation. If we support Barzani, what does we get in return? Oil, gaz, weaker PKK, delimited Iranian influence. This debate is very advanced in the Turkish society. Some are even ready to accept a pro-Barzani Kurdistan (North Iraq) within the borders of Turkey with extensive self-government rights.

To tell the true, it is not in our interest to make such a farreaching step at this moment. But, who knows, the hole situation could change even tomorrow. And, no, Iran won't fight Turkey. In fact, Tehran couldn't do anything in this case. You may handle the Kurdish terror groups in Iran so far but this is Turkey we are talking about. You won't be able to fight the Kurds, contain the Turkish-Azeri irredentism, kill the Balouch movement, stand up against GCC members and handle Israeli/US interventions and support Shias abroad at the very same time.

Why do you think Turkey has a large base in North Iraq? Why do you think they are training Peshmergas, Shia Turkmens and Sunni Arabs?

Your knowledge of international relations, Iraq and Barzani is - 1000000000. Your stupid enough to think Barzani actually likes us. He actually supports the pkk and every general can tell you that eg osman pamuklu in his interviews. He needs us now so he's acting friendly. Iraq independence is very bad for us.

 

[Malik Alashter]

any way the opposition against barzani in krg is escalating we may see krg w/o barzani.

Iraq independence is very bad for us

 

[f1000n]

Right, Turkey is too weak to implement this project on her own. But, you simply don't understand my arguments. Ankara wouldn't fight all alone. They would use many groups and sub groups within Iraq and Iran together with powerful foreign nations like USA to keep Iran at bay. Iran, of course!, would handle the situation at the end but during this time the world would create unchangeable precedents.

I do understand.

I don't think they will go independent (anytime soon). After the defeat of IS there will be renewed problems between Baghdad and KRG (Barzanistan | PUK) both separately, this is when they will be in a far more vulnerable state which explains why they have been digging trenches for the past years. They know that when IS is taken care off the ISF will be freed up to focus on borders which means countering and reversing KRG expansion. KRG expansion has a weak hold in many area's such as Sinjar where a militia operates that is tied to the Iraqi gov, Nineveh plains where the NPU operates who are tied to the Iraqi gov and Kerkuk where thousands of armed Turkmens part of the PMF are stationed, recently inside Kerkuk city as well. Add to that the financial crisis in the KRG and the rising tensions between both dictatorial powers, they aren't exactly in a good state.

If they manage to go independent which is very unlikely due to disputes and their financial situation they would end up in an even worse financial crisis and be fully dependent on a neighboring country which are all hostile to the idea of Kurdistan. The chance of PUK vs KDP war is bigger than their independence. KDP is ruled by dictatorial family Barzani, he literally put his own family members in all high positions. PUK has no American support and has recently voted in favor of a no confidence vote ousting the top KDP member in Iraq's gov (Zebari), now they even suggested dropping KRG parliament in favor of shifting to Baghdad as they saw KRG is a dictatorship.

Shortly said, there's no independence for them anytime soon, not because Iraq says so, because quite solid circumstances decide that which have been preventing their secession for all the previous years when they were talking about going independent. They talk, they know they can't survive on their own.

Personally I rather see that useless region leave or get dealt with militarily after IS, they're good for nothing. Besides they don't do anything against the PKK, even if they wanted to they can't with the incompetent force they have that has done no more than digging trenches. It took them over a 1 year and 1000+ US air strikes along with US special forces on the front to take Sinjar, ISOF or any competent force for that matter would've taken it in a week, not only that they ran from Sinjar and left Yazidis to fall in the hands of IS. Unlike the Iraqi army the Peshmerga didn't experience political collapse and betrayal, they simply ran from the enemy due to fear. However western media gave a good spin to all of it and made the Kurds look like battle hardened heroes which is the image the average westerner has of them.

 

[Al-Andalus]

23 billion $ are US expenses on its own military forces in Iraq as well as contractors hired by the US department of defense, not aid to Iraq despite what articles claim. US military aid to Iraq in the form of equipment is far from reaching billions, the most expensive American arms wielded by Iraq are Abrams tanks, F-16's and radars which were paid for.

If Iraq truly received $ 23 billion of US military aid then we'd have over modern 100 fighter jets and hundreds of more Abrams tanks. US spent a lot on airbases and army bases in Iraq as well as the big embassy which I don't know why they made that big as if they were going to make Baghdad their regional operations center.

I am just quoting a source that appears to be well-informed/serious. It's a neutral source too. Anyway it is absolutely certain that the US has helped the Iraqi army/state in terms of logistics, training and aid and continues to do it. Without their help fighting against ISIS would have been much more (many times) difficult.

Anyway none of this changes all the other (many) facts that I mentioned that you do not want to comment on or ignore because you know that I am right. I already wrote that you should look past the fight against ISIS which is not what we are discussing here.

Anyway do you support the loss of Iraqi territory and displacement of native Iraqi Sunni Arabs from the border regions? Are you not from that region yourself? How can you not be critical of the current events in this regard?

I mean @Malik Alashter openly wrote not that long ago that he does not care about his own countrymen (due to sectarianism) and that he does not care about this part of Iraq. This opinion is shared by many Iraqi Shia Arabs from the South. Don't you think this is a problem in a country that is already greatly divided?

If KSA/GCC/other Arab states support the Iraqi Sunni Arabs in distraught in those regions of Iraq the central Iraqi government complains. Why is that? KSA was the first country from the region to donate 1-2 billion dollars in aid when Mosul was captured. Exactly due to the struggles that the Iraqi Sunni Arabs face and have faced for years.

So the central government does not care/take no action in this regard which itself is a crime/great problem but not only that, it shuns away legitimate help from fellow neighboring Arab countries. Then they wonder why they are criticized and why people have low opinions of them.

@Malik Alashter

I like you and we have cordial ties but we should distinguish between facts, ground realities and nonsense/wishful thinking. Besides this thread is intended to discuss this topic. If you want to discuss other topics you are free to create threads for such a thing. Also how many times do you have to be told that this has nothing to do with sectarianism and that I do not care about this at all? For your information 90% of all Kurds are Sunnis.

I as a person with ancestral ties to Iraq and relatives in Iraq will obviously care a great deal about events in that country. Not to say that instability in Iraq means instability for KSA/GCC and much (if not all) of the Arab Near East. Kurds have their traditional KRG where they can live but stealing land that is not Kurdish should obviously not be tolerated. Not only that but doing it by violent means. This gets little publicity in the world/West which is another problem as they seem to have a fairytale picture of Kurds. Or maybe they have found the most useful puppets.

In any case the situation is unacceptable and if the incompetent Iraqi regime has any spine they would have acted long ago or act very soon.

If they cannot even do that or do not want to do that I honestly see little point in Iraq Sunni Arabs not declaring an autonomy. At least they would be able to act on their own behalf to protect themselves and their interests without having to go to Baghdad and ask/beg for such a thing to be allowed.

Anyway can you imagine foreigners in KSA stealing land on the territory of KSA from natives by violent means without the central government/other parts of KSA/peoples not doing anything? I honestly cannot imagine this even for 1 second. LET ALONE having peoples/groups of people inside KSA that would support those foreigners in their errands of stealing land from natives in KSA.

This is a symptom of a broken/divided country. Nothing to be proud of. Would be unthinkable pre-2003.

This kind of state of affairs is what you get when incompetent Shia (Dawa) Islamists get to rule a country after decades of absence and not least traitors who are more concerned about pleasing Wilayat al-Faqih Mullah's in Iran than serving their own country.

 

[pak-marine]

No stopping for kurds independence.. but struggle will be long as a significant size lives in Iran and turkey and it will not be easy to carve out those areas

 

[T-123456]

He meant,Kurdish independence from Iraq(as if you didnt know what he meant).

 

[Malik Alashter]

In any case the situation is unacceptable and if the incompetent Iraqi regime has any spine they would have acted long ago or act very soon.

He meant,Kurdish independence from Iraq(as if you didnt know what he meant).

Believe me if I tell you this we want them to go that way soon these people are nothing but a burden you can take the whole kurdstan except kerkuk thats ours.