As an Arab, the Middle East’s reaction to Orlando left me speechless…

[Arsalan]

There is no "phobia" related with me and if your religion is not ready to accept gays as normal people it needs a 21st century upgrade just what the Christians got .

Sir may be your belief in your religion is not that strong and you think that it is some thing that will need up gradation, mine is not and i don't need any such thing. Plus where i said that gays are not "normal people" ? twisting words to support some particular agenda or starting the argument with an conclusion already in mind?
The point is simple if you chose to understand, Islam clearly prohibits homosexuality, period. I do not say they are not humans, i never said that they are not normal, i did said that the killings were totally unacceptable and criminal and had there been a culprit he must have been made to pay for this sin (yes i say sin). Also i do believe that thy guy responsible for killing all those people will pay for what he did and will have to answer for his sin. You can make whatever you want from this dear but there is nothing ambiguous about this!

we must refuse to apologise for the actions of these thugs that have been experimented and used by the west over the decades. these pests have destroyed our old heritage and executed fellow Arabs in thousands a day.

So true! That is what i have trying to explain. It is not an apology on there part, the fact is, no matter what they chose to call themselves, the religion have nothing to do with them. Now a a person calling himself Muslim and involved in homosexuality is one thing but that wont mean that homosexuality is allowed in Islam. That is how people have tried to explain the terrorism problem while if all those intellectuals can just sit and study the religion they will themselves realize that a person killing people in mosques, kids in schools, peoples in bars or night clubs,, a person simple KILLING other people have nothing to do with Islam as far as his actions are concerned.

they have nothing to do with us. their birth and their existence is not spontaneous. the presidential hopeful Hillary has already admitted American role in such "experimentation" in the past.

I don't expect these hypocrites to be as generous in finding their own faults but the karma bites them bad..
their American officials were burning alive and Al Qaeda flag was waving in Libya already when they had not stopped patting each other's back for downing yet another regime in the middle east.

why they expect the Arabs to show sympathy towards them when they call for nuking the entire Middle east and turning the entire Arabian sand into a glass from nuclear fire?

they dont bat an eye over the human suffering in the middle east and add more salt to the wound by saying that its the problem with their religion that they kill each other... they say that because their opinion makers are feeding them crap at large scale through their media.
look at the pictures of Iraq, Libya and Syria about 20 years ago and compare it to now.

if this carnage was self inflicted by Arab Muslims then they should never have been like below.


look below.. all below were made and maintained by the Arabs in the Middle east. if they were savage and destructive in nature just for being Muslims as per Western narrative BS then they wont have made anything like this.

until the intervention and experimentation of the west.. these places were peaceful.. either through direct aggression and invasions on false claims or through proxies ... the western governments of the past and present have the blood of millions of Arabs on their hands.
forgive me
but I dont expect anyone in the middle east to show any sympathy towards the terror victims in the west.

Harsh but all true!
It will be difficult to digest but if one thinks about it this is exactly what is happening and how things are. If they find the Arab not mourning the killings, it is less to do with Islam being against homosexuality and more to do with the attitude of west toward this whole region. While the leaders may play puppet in there hands, the people do realize, even if to small extent, what actually is happening. So the attitude is not something should have come as a surprise!!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

[QUOTE="Syed.Ali.Haider, post: 8396254, member: 32635"or so goes the popular Karma Theory of Retribution. Except that it does not seem to be working like that in reality.[/QUOTE]

working very well and will continue to work

Gigitty Gigitty....

 

[VCheng]

or so goes the popular Karma Theory of Retribution. Except that it does not seem to be working like that in reality.

working very well and will continue to work


View attachment 311966

Gigitty Gigitty....

So I take it that you regard these 49 deaths as Karmic Retribution at work also?

 

[gambit]

Sir phobia is something that is just being associated with anything anyone want to these days. I wont call the reaction as homophobia. It is just that our religion do not allows it, period. What is "phobia" in that? I wont go on to address other things that may be termed as phobia related to you, it is simple not suitable for a Muslim to go that that level.

I said it before on this forum and I will repeat: We do not live in an intellectual and moral vacuum.

Everything we do must have a reason why, as in justification. We eat because of hunger, drink because of thirst, and when threatened, we either fight or flight.

Those intellectual and moral justifications are always there. If not hunger, then boredom that you will eat, and the consequence is obesity in the long run. If not thirst, then boredom that you will drink and drink liquids that have nothing to do with satisfying the basic biological need for water, then the consequence is addiction. Human life, throughout mankind's collective history, is filled with these justifications on why we do ALL things, from committing the most horrible acts to accomplishing great and progressive achievements.

So why should religion be excused from this list of justifications ? Am not talking about your Islam but religion in general. If your religious principles forbids an act, and not merely forbids but incites emotions such as hatred, towards said act, then there is a 'phobia' on that act. I can find many Biblical injunctions against 'bearing false witness' and am sure the Muslims can find Quranic equivalents. You and I may find in our respective religions orders to 'hate the sin but love the sinner' or something similar, and even though we maybe able to separate the two, hate is a necessary component in our calculus to not sin. Why do I hate X ? Because my god said it offends him. To many, that is enough. To others, we may find other components such as X do not produce expected things, it is not in line with social and natural orders, it is unhygienic, whatever. But the essence here is that you cannot -- not do something -- for no reasons.

 

[danialsj]

I literally just said this Part of the world will never sink to such lows.

This part of the world and to be honest the entire world has homosexuals in their communities. The difference is that we repress homosexuality which makes it appear that there are less homosexuals here. You are obviously entitled to your opinion but hating a person because of their sexual preferences is irrational. If you must hate, then judge a person based on their character.

 

[Arsalan]

I said it before on this forum and I will repeat: We do not live in an intellectual and moral vacuum.

Everything we do must have a reason why, as in justification. We eat because of hunger, drink because of thirst, and when threatened, we either fight or flight.

Those intellectual and moral justifications are always there. If not hunger, then boredom that you will eat, and the consequence is obesity in the long run. If not thirst, then boredom that you will drink and drink liquids that have nothing to do with satisfying the basic biological need for water, then the consequence is addiction. Human life, throughout mankind's collective history, is filled with these justifications on why we do ALL things, from committing the most horrible acts to accomplishing great and progressive achievements.

So why should religion be excused from this list of justifications ? Am not talking about your Islam but religion in general. If your religious principles forbids an act, and not merely forbids but incites emotions such as hatred, towards said act, then there is a 'phobia' on that act. I can find many Biblical injunctions against 'bearing false witness' and am sure the Muslims can find Quranic equivalents. You and I may find in our respective religions orders to 'hate the sin but love the sinner' or something similar, and even though we may be able to separate the two, hate is a necessary component in our calculus to not sin. Why do I hate X ? Because my god said it offends him. To many, that is enough. To others, we may find other components such as X do not produce expected things, it is not in line with social and natural orders, it is unhygienic, whatever. But the essence here is that you cannot -- not do something -- for no reasons.

Agreed, there is some reason behind every action. My point simple is that citing religion a reason for such attacks and terrorist activities indicate a phobia but on part of those who are putting that blame.

It is not right to quote a part of what the religion have to say about something (the disliking part) and ignoring the other (tolerance) and then using that part to put the blame on religion. This is not the right course of action even with our human made laws and the general rules of a society! You have to follow them completely and following one do not get you off for disobeying another because you followed the first one. This kind of approach where only parts of the books are being preached and misinterpreted, just like it was done with Bible in the past, is what I wanted to point to. The blame here is not on the book but surely on the person who is giving that wrong interpretation and message and conveying it to masses. Now who will correct that? US or Europe? NO, it is not their fault!! It is the fault of that Muslim who he preaching that wrong message. BUT, if this the fault of the message itself? Certainly not. If you understand and if I was able to present my point clearly, you will understand that this is not as excuse but I am just stating the facts as I see them. It is the same when I say that those mislead people and their actions have nothing to do with Islam or any religion for that matter. These people (talking about the terrorists here) were misguided and exploited, period.

About this attack in the club in US, let me say it again, that was a sad incident and anyone with very basic knowledge of Islam will confirm that the religion do not allows for this kind of killing and prohibits it strictly! Blaming a person’s personal issues on a religion just because one want to distort its image will get us know where and is not actually very progressive.

 

[Gibbs]

Most of those who say the stuff said here are gays anyways

Worst homophobes are actually closeted Gay's.. Just like this mass murderer.. They're petrified with their own sexuality and is in conflict with religious dogma shoved down their throats and the pressures of their societies

Btw this trend is not confined to Muslims but all Abrahamic faith, Eastern philosophies like Buddhism, Hinduism and Taoism are more flexible in their thoughts on human sexuality

 

[gambit]

Agreed, there is some reason behind every action. My point simple is that citing religion a reason for such attacks and terrorist activities indicate a phobia but on part of those who are putting that blame.

And there is no 'phobia' on the attacker's character ? When was the last time YOU attack something you LIKE ?

It is not right to quote a part of what the religion have to say about something (the disliking part) and ignoring the other (tolerance) and then using that part to put the blame on religion.

Yes, it is appropriate to cite the relevant part. It shows the origin of the behavior. Even if God reversed himself in a later generation, His words can still serve as motivation and justification for an act. The believers may disagree among themselves on that reversal, but for non-believers, that is all we have to go by. Worse still, it is not up to the non-believers to distill out what your God said and when did He reversed Himself.

If it is not right, according to the believers, then it is up to the believers to take efforts, physical efforts if necessary, to right the wrongs among yourselves. The perception among us non-believers is that the Muslims are not making that effort. Rightly or wrongly, that is what we perceive.

...where only parts of the books are being preached and misinterpreted, just like it was done with Bible in the past, is what I wanted to point to. The blame here is not on the book but surely on the person who is giving that wrong interpretation and message and conveying it to masses.

Here is what may surprise you...The Bible was blamed. Why ? Precisely because the Bible was used as motivation and justification for many atrocities committed by Christians. And precisely because the Bible was blamed, the Christians turned inward and the result was the Reformation.

Blame maybe wrongly cast, but to blame is as human a need, psychologically and emotionally, as the need for food and water for the body. Even if wrongly cast, at least it gives a starting point for analyses. When the police investigate a crime, they always have a suspect, in other words someone to blame. But they do not always have the correct person to suspect, right ? So what do they do when they ruled out a person ? They move to the next suspect. There maybe a move, but there is no discard of the blame. It is always readied to be levied.

When a Christian used the Bible to self motivate and justify an act, assume that it is an atrocious act for now, the Bible is the suspect. Not the Kama Sutra. Not the Quran. Not the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Nothing else but the Bible. Many 'holy' books give reasons to kill but it is absurd to use that common denominator to say the Christian used the Quran to justify his atrocious act. Or vice versa.

Like it or not, you and the Christian may believe your 'holy' books were 'divinely' inspired, they are still sufficiently vague that both of you requires legions of 'holy' men to interpret the fog that are your 'holy' books. If the book is sufficiently vague that its principles can be used to motivate and justify good and evil deeds, the book must share the blame. Along with that, so share those legions of 'holy' men.

About this attack in the club in US, let me say it again, that was a sad incident and anyone with very basic knowledge of Islam will confirm that the religion do not allows for this kind of killing and prohibits it strictly! Blaming a person’s personal issues on a religion just because one want to distort its image will get us know where and is not actually very progressive.

Sorry, if that prohibition is so basic and clear, the killing would not have occurred. In fact, such killings are common in Muslim dominated countries. Am sure you can verify that on your own.

Or are you going to tell me that when...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...dical-Muslims-new-thirst-killing-justice.html

A masked IS fighter announces into a microphone that the two prisoners have ‘engaged in homosexual activities’ and must be punished in accordance with Islamic, Sharia law. In the square about 100 feet below, a large, all-male mob has gathered.

Then the grisly carnival proceeds as, one by one, the men are thrown from the roof.

...These Muslims used the Bible to justify what they did ? You want to change suspect, from the Quran to the Bible and from Muslims to Christians ?

You already agreed that everything we do must have justifications. What that agreement also mean is that you do not have right to change the origins of those justifications. You cannot say we eat because of thirst and drink because of hunger. Yes, the Old Testament of the Bible have horrific punishments for homosexuals, but those Muslims did not cite the Bible but the Quran.

I know and understand as a believer, you want your 'holy' book to be THE book for all and if the Quran is supposed to be so supremely divine, it must be protected from all and any human taint. But just like the Bible, your Quran is already touched by human sentiments.

 

[Arsalan]

And there is no 'phobia' on the attacker's character ? When was the last time YOU attack something you LIKE ?

But do you attack everything that you do not like?
Associating the "phobia" with that person religion is wrong. The group most terrified of Gays are the the gays themselves who are not comfortable admitting to this reality! You can look it up and i am sure you are aware of that. This is being reported as a case in this particular incident as far as i know (have not been able to follow the incident closely)

Yes, it is appropriate to cite the relevant part. It shows the origin of the behavior. Even if God reversed himself in a later generation, His words can still serve as motivation and justification for an act. The believers may disagree among themselves on that reversal, but for non-believers, that is all we have to go by. Worse still, it is not up to the non-believers to distill out what your God said and when did He reversed Himself.

It is not that god reversed himself. It is just reading part of a message and formulating a point of view based on that. Even in our human arguments, you can never be right to listen to half of other person's argument to form a judgement. That is why the remarks "hear me out". I am NOT saying that the god reversed himself but just that people are eager to jump up to conclusions based on whatever little they are fed with.

If it is not right, according to the believers, then it is up to the believers to take efforts, physical efforts if necessary, to right the wrongs among yourselves. The perception among us non-believers is that the Muslims are not making that effort. Rightly or wrongly, that is what we perceive.

You are absolutely right. The onus is on us Muslims to prove what is right about us and to correct what is wrong. It is not your job to do it, we as Muslims need to work on this.

Here is what may surprise you...The Bible was blamed. Why ? Precisely because the Bible was used as motivation and justification for many atrocities committed by Christians. And precisely because the Bible was blamed, the Christians turned inward and the result was the Reformation.

When a Christian used the Bible to self motivate and justify an act, assume that it is an atrocious act for now, the Bible is the suspect. Not the Kama Sutra. Not the Quran. Not the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Nothing else but the Bible. Many 'holy' books give reasons to kill but it is absurd to use that common denominator to say the Christian used the Quran to justify his atrocious act. Or vice versa.

That TOO was equally wrong. It was NOT the bible that was wrong but the people who made changes in it to suite there own agenda. The interpretation is what have been the problem.

Blame maybe wrongly cast, but to blame is as human a need, psychologically and emotionally, as the need for food and water for the body. Even if wrongly cast, at least it gives a starting point for analyses. When the police investigate a crime, they always have a suspect, in other words someone to blame. But they do not always have the correct person to suspect, right ? So what do they do when they ruled out a person ? They move to the next suspect. There maybe a move, but there is no discard of the blame. It is always readied to be levied.

That is what we are not doing here, we are NOT moving to the next suspect and are hell bend to prove that it is religion that is the source of all unrest. That is my point. Keep an open mind and people must try to understand other aspects of the problem.

Like it or not, you and the Christian may believe your 'holy' books were 'divinely' inspired, they are still sufficiently vague that both of you requires legions of 'holy' men to interpret the fog that are your 'holy' books. If the book is sufficiently vague that its principles can be used to motivate and justify good and evil deeds, the book must share the blame. Along with that, so share those legions of 'holy' men.

For you sir, it may be vague! I do understand these basic to say whatever i said above. Plus there are the ways of prophet to understand the laws. Furthermore, the Quran itself is not that vague as it is often said to be. There are no disagreements and once you really want to understand you wont find any problem in getting the message. Trust me, if you have some time you may chose to study some English translation and you can see this for yourself. It wont hurt anyone right?

Sorry, if that prohibition is so basic and clear, the killing would not have occurred. In fact, such killings are common in Muslim dominated countries. Am sure you can verify that on your own.

That is simply not true. Also you are again blaming religion to be the only reason for the killing, If you have already made up your mind on this then there is nothing much anyone can do to help.

Or are you going to tell me that when...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...dical-Muslims-new-thirst-killing-justice.html

...These Muslims used the Bible to justify what they did ? You want to change suspect, from the Quran to the Bible and from Muslims to Christians ?

Nops, i don't. As you can see, i also said that the people were wrong to blame Bible for what Christians did wrong. Just as you have said that it is human nature to put blame on someone, the point however is that that still wont make it right!!

You already agreed that everything we do must have justifications. What that agreement also mean is that you do not have right to change the origins of those justifications. You cannot say we eat because of thirst and drink because of hunger. Yes, the Old Testament of the Bible have horrific punishments for homosexuals, but those Muslims did not cite the Bible but the Quran.

I know and understand as a believer, you want your 'holy' book to be THE book for all and if the Quran is supposed to be so supremely divine, it must be protected from all and any human taint. But just like the Bible, your Quran is already touched by human sentiments.

In its interpretation, YES!!
That is what i have been talking about!

 

[Uzair Shafiq [Босс]]

This part of the world and to be honest the entire world has homosexuals in their communities. The difference is that we repress homosexuality which makes it appear that there are less homosexuals here. You are obviously entitled to your opinion but hating a person because of their sexual preferences is irrational. If you must hate, then judge a person based on their character.

This is an Islamic country first.
Islam teaches the same principles as a democratic state in fact better.
Islam=Democracy
but the ideology of such people being allowed to openly live is just sickening.
Please don't quote me again. I want nothing to do with this disgusting topic.

 

[Gibbs]

This is an Islamic country first.
Islam teaches the same principles as a democratic state in fact better.
Islam=Democracy
but the ideology of such people being allowed to openly live is just sickening.
Please don't quote me again. I want nothing to do with this disgusting topic.

I dont think anybody actually forced you to comment on it.. You did it on your own free will..

I dont really understand why people bother so much about things they themselves proclaim they want nothing to do with.. Feeling insecure perhaps..

 

[RoadRunner401]

There is no "phobia" related with me and if your religion is not ready to accept gays as normal people it needs a 21st century upgrade just what the Christians got .

You mean because homosexuality is part of Hindu religion, all other religions should accept it, plus What did the Christians get?

 

[SecularNationalist]

I don,t support gays but don,t support their killings

 

[+4vsgorillas-Apebane]

What people do behind closed doors is their business.

Isnt Islam about tolerance and love?

If the prophhet Muhammed is alive today, what would he say about the killings? About the hate and intolerance?

 

[Uzair Shafiq [Босс]]

I dont think anybody actually forced you to comment on it.. You did it on your own free will..

I dont really understand why people bother so much about things they themselves proclaim they want nothing to do with.. Feeling insecure perhaps..

Nah
Just came across somethings after posting on the topic...
lel can't say