Aryans vs Dravidians?

[p(-)0ENiX]

I read the study that you referred to. The quote of 3000-8000 years from;

Shared Indo-European languages (i.e., Hindi and most European languages) suggested to linguists of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries that contemporary Hindu Indians are descendants of primarily West Eurasians who migrated from Europe, the Near East, Anatolia (Turkey), and the Caucasus 3000–8000 years ago (Poliakov 1974; Renfrew 1989a,b).

This has been quoted from a book written by Leon Poliakov, a French writer of Jewish origin, titled, The Aryan Myth: A History of Racist and Nationalist Ideas in Europe. Renfrew is also quoted, who also quotes from Poliakov. The reference of 3000-8000 years ago is declared highly suspect by various scholars who imply that the main theme of Poliakov’s book was to denounce the Aryan racist theories and this date was not primarily based on historical dating of various pre-historical events and therefore this can not be taken as a historical fact.

Secondly, the association of so-called Indo-Iranians with IVC era is highly suspect as Indo-Iranians are primarily associated with introduction of horse and chariots. No horse or a chariot has ever been found in Harappa and Mohenjodaro or any other qualified IVC era site. This is mere speculation and highly suspect and I do not believe this. You may not agree with me. The assertion that it were Indo-Iranians who settled first in Afghanistan and later along Indus has never been proved archeologically as I said earlier as well that people of BACTRIA did migrate to Iran but not to IVC area. I have a problem with the term Aryan and its historical usage as well. The most comprehensive guide to the early textual history of the term Aryan remains that produced by a Nazi scholar, Hans Siegert (1941/42), but over the past years a series of detailed intellectual histories and themed volumes that touch on the Aryan question have been published. The issue here however is not simply the correcting of a misleading translation or the creation of a historical narrative, but the reconceptualization of the Aryan paradigm, and, as a corollary, the political history of linguistic theorizing.

Thirdly, the study you referred to has been superseded by many other studies that have been conducted later, and if I may, I would like to highlight some the quotes from that study published in the American Journal of Human Genetics in 2011:

The percentage of West Eurasian maternal lineages is substantial (up to 50%) in Indus Valley populations but marginal (<10%) in the south of the subcontinent.

Genome-wide scans on the Human genome diversity panel (HGDP) data involving 51 global populations have revealed that South Asia, represented by Pakistani populations, shares most signals of recent positive selection with populations from Europe,
the Near East, and North Africa.

Our simulations show that differences in haplotype diversity between source and recipient populations can be detected even for migration events that occurred 500 generations ago (~12,500 years ago assuming one generation to be 25 years).

Pakistan consistently appearing markedly more similar to West Eurasian than to Indian populations.

Combined with our ADMIXTURE and PCA results, this is powerful evidence that Pakistan is a poor proxy for South Asian genetic diversity, despite having often fulfilled this role in previous publications.

Within India the geographic cline of the Indus/Caucasus signal is very weak, which is unexpected under the ASI-ANI model, according to which the ANI contribution should decrease as one moves to the south of the subcontinent. This can be interpreted as prehistorical migratory complexity within India that has perturbed the geographic signal of admixture.

It was first suggested by the German orientalist Max Muller that ca. 3,500 years ago a dramatic migration of Indo-European speakers from Central Asia (the putative Indo Aryan migration) played a key role in shaping contemporary South Asian populations and was responsible for the introduction of the Indo-European language family and the caste system in India. A few studies on mtDNA and Y-chromosome variation have interpreted their results in favor of the hypothesis, whereas others have found no genetic evidence to support it.

The demographic history of Central Asia is, however, complex, and although it has been shown that demic diffusion coupled with influx of Turkic speakers during historical times has shaped the genetic makeup.

Patterning suggests additional complexity of gene flow between geographically adjacent populations because it would be difficult to explain the western ancestry component in Indian populations by simple and recent admixture from the Middle East.

In terms of human population history, our oldest simulated migration event occurred roughly 12,500 years ago and predates or coincides with the initial Neolithic expansion in the Near East. Knowing whether signals associated with the initial peopling of Eurasia fall within our detection limits requires additional extensive simulations, but our current results indicate that the often debated episode of South Asian prehistory, the putative Indo-Aryan migration 3,500 years ago falls well within the limits of our haplotype-based approach. Thus, regardless of where this component was from (the Caucasus, Near East, Indus Valley, or Central Asia), its spread to other regions must have occurred well before our detection limits at 12,500 years.



Therefore, any suggestion that there was a migration of people to the IVC after 12500 years before present may stand nullified as per this study.

Sorry, but I did not use any racist sources. Just because the Nazis used the term Aryan in a racist sense doesn't change the fact that the word Aryan was used in the ethnic sense by Indo-Iranians initially before evolving in to a cultural identity. The book you are referring to according to your post was published in 1974, a lot has changed since then. My reference to the migrations that took place around 3000 to 8000 years ago comes from the article here, it did not come from any book or source with racist claims. The majority of Europeans were present in Europe since Paleolithic times. There were only a few migrations from Central Asia towards Europe & those migrants settled in Eastern Europe alone. Genetic studies including the one I posted regarding Croatians confirm this. Apart from that you may refer to the Kurgan hypothesis for further reading as well. Most of the points you have raised were already clarified by me in previous threads we had discussions in. Almost all genetic studies indicate that the majority of Pakistanis have the R1a haplogroup in their DNA in varying amounts. This has naturally pointed to a migration. I repeat, the Indo-Aryans & Harappans were separate people.

As far as archaeological evidence is concerned regarding chariots, I mentioned a source on a previous thread regarding the unearthing of Aryan cities in Central Asia & Russia.

The place where Europe began: Spiral cities built on remote Russian plains by swastika-painting Aryans

Bronze age cities built by the Aryans that date back to the beginning of Western civilisation in Europe have been discovered in a remote part of Russia.

Archaeologists have identified 20 of the spiral-shaped settlements that were built some 4,000 years ago shortly after the Great Pyramid in Egypt.

'These ancient Indian texts and hymns describe sacrifices of horses and burials and the way the meat is cut off and the way the horse is buried with its master.

'If you match this with the way the skeletons and the graves are being dug up in Russia, they are a millimetre-perfect match.'

These are some of the first signs of archaeological evidence, & I am certain more evidence shall be uncovered in the future. History already teaches us that the Vedic Aryans considered themselves superior to the people of the Indus Valley. Genetic studies like the one below postulate a migration over 3000 years ago from Central Asia. Besides, your post also claims that Pakistanis are closer to Eurasians, & that in itself shows evidence of migration & admixture in the Indus. Those studies & sources below agree with the uncovering of Aryan cities that were built over 4000 years ago.

Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations

GENETIC DIVERSITY IN PAKISTANI POPULATIONS

The Indo-Europeans

Harappans and Rig Vedic Aryans were NOT Hindu !

Now coming to the Aryans.. The concept of Aryan Race is nonsense invented by the Nazis. But what is historically correct is that Aryans were an ancient people who originally inhabited Central Asia and later migrated southwards to the regions stretching from Iran to northwest India. These early Aryans had a similar language, race, culture, and religion with many variations. The Aryans of Iran were later influenced by the Elamites and Babylonians. The Aryans of Pakistan were later influenced by the Harappans. The Aryans of north India were later influenced by the Dravidic-Mundic natives giving birth to Hinduism. Of course in later centuries other peoples also invaded/migrated bringing other influences/mixing.

&#8220;The evidence of the Rig Veda shows that during the centuries when the Aryans were occupying the Punjab and composing the hymns of the Rig Veda, the north-west part of the subcontinent was culturally separate from the rest of India. The closest cultural relations of the Indo-Aryans at that period were with the Iranians, whose language and sacred texts are preserved in the various works known as the Avesta, in inscriptions in Old Persian, and in some other scattered documents. So great is the amount of material common to the Rig Veda Aryans and the Iranians that the books of the two peoples show common geographic names as well as deities and ideas&#8221;. (Pakistan and Western Asia, By Prof. Norman Brown)

I have already clarified that dates derived from Max Mueller's Aryan invasion theory are incorrect & have been debunked. The dates we should focus on are those that are derived from genetic & archaeological evidence. The Indo-Iranian migrations are simple facts supported by many historical accounts including sources from the region of Media civilization & Persia. This is just a bit of evidence to support my claims, & none of them are from racist sources. Do not falsely accuse people of racism or of using racist sources. The Europeans are not considered Aryans because the word "Aryan" originates from Sanskrit & Avestan. The Aryan race doesn't exist, but the term Aryan initially referred to a group of people (Indo-Iranian tribes) before being applied in the cultural sense.

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

@eastwatch the Indian folklore says it was common for great kings to take wives from lowest strata of the society like daughter of fisherman but their children followed the lineage of their father without any discrimination. Your theory is not true.

Please spare us your folklore, we are having discussion on basis of scientific facts.

 

[Tikolo]

I believe that present day Hinduism has almost nothing to do with the vedic religion, they completely sound different to me. Present day Hinduism is a mix of Dravdian pagan religions which existed before Vedic religion was brought to south asia.

 

[INDIC]

Please spare us your folklore, we are having discussion on basis of scientific facts.

Why you think so,if you don't know folklore preserve history to some extent and studied by historian to decipher history.

35% ASI among Punjabi, still you can't stop badmouthing them.

 

[Tikolo]

Why you think so,if you don't know folklore preserve history to some extent and studied by historian to decipher history.

35% ASI among Punjabi, still you can't stop badmouthing them.

The ASI component is a very old component, that even existed as far as Iran, so it had nothing to with present day Indians moving to other countries.

Buddhism and Hinduism for sure have existed in Pakistan and Gandhara was a Buddhist/Hindu kingdom, however that does not mean present day Indians from the Ganga Valley went up there and formed a civilization. If you look at the history of the Vedic religion, it came from the NW part of south asia and spread in to other parts of south asia, so it is the other way around rather

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

Why you think so,if you don't know folklore preserve history to some extent and studied by historian to decipher history.

35% ASI among Punjabi, still you can't stop badmouthing them.

Badmouthing who? Its a fact Punjabis have ASI between 25-35%, average will be around 30%. Pashtuns/Baloch between 20-30% and average around 25% or even less, check harappadna.org. Do you know some Baloch people believe they come from Syria? After DNA tests it turned out they had 0% admixture with them. So science always triumph legends and folklore. Just like many Pakistanis still believe in being syeds, so spare us your bs.

I dont know what Pakistani ASI component have to do with anything.

After punjab the percentage of ASI goes up to 50-60%+ in India.

 

[Tikolo]

Badmouthing who? Its a fact Punjabis have ASI between 25-35%, average will be around 30%. Pashtuns/Baloch between 20-30% and average around 25% or even less, check harappadna.org. Do you know some Baloch people believe they come from Syria? After DNA tests it turned out they had 0% admixture with them. So science always triumph legends and folklore. Just like many Pakistanis still believe in being syeds, so spare us your bs.

I dont know what Pakistani ASI component have to do with anything.



After punjab the percentage of ASI goes up to 50-60%+ in India.

Pakistani pashtuns from one tribe are showing around 20% ASI, however the Afghan ones show less, I think Pashtuns overall will have 15-20% ASI on average, Baloch are even less ASI, only at 14%, because they are more related to west asians, then south asians. Pakistani punjabies are around 30-35% ASI. Obviously the more east and south you go in to south asia, the ASI rises, Tamil groups are between 60-70% ASI

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

Pakistani pashtuns from one tribe are showing around 20% ASI, however the Afghan ones show less, I think Pashtuns overall will have 15-20% ASI on average, Baloch are even less ASI, only at 14%, because they are more related to west asians, then south asians. Pakistani punjabies are around 30-35% ASI. Obviously the more east and south you go in to south asia, the ASI rises, Tamil groups are between 60-70% ASI

Search Results pathan | Harappa Ancestry Project

Check this out, couple of them have 35-36%. Most of them above 20%, so average around 25% or less. Maybe with more samples the average will come down to 20%. And yes Baloch people have least amount of ASI.

Punjabis have between 25-35% on Harappadna.org, next week he should do similar graph for Punjabis.

 

[ranjeet]

I don't know what this hoopla is all about, let the confused ones dig more about their history.

 

[Tikolo]

Search Results pathan | Harappa Ancestry Project

Check this out, couple of them have 35-36%. Most of them above 20%, so average around 25% or less. Maybe with more samples the average will come down to 20%. And yes Baloch people have least amount of ASI.

The average on harrapa from the spreadsheet comes to 22.91% for pathans, however these samples dont represent all pashtuns, only the Bangash tribe from kurram valley, which are thought to be the most (south asian) looking pathans, because they mixed with punjabis over the centuries. I think Afghan pashtun average is more accurate coming at 17%. There are around 100 pashtun tribe overall, these need to do mass sampling for them

Also pashtun (caucasian) component is much higher then most other south asians, I think there was a mass migration of some Caucasian group to the pashtun areas, pashtun do resemble (chechens) and others from the area to some degree

 

[dravidianhero]

@shan
who are ancestral south indians?negroids or australoids?what do scientific studies say abt this?by looks,majority of present day south indians are australoids with a mix of caucassian and negroids(ofcourse the proportion changes with caste)

 

[Tikolo]

@shan
who are ancestral south indians?negroids or australoids?what do scientific studies say abt this?by looks,majority of present day south indians are australoids with a mix of caucassian and negroids(ofcourse the proportion changes with caste)

The closes group to ASI that exists today are the Andaman Islanders (bay of bengal) I beleive:

^ I think Andaman Islanders are cousin population to ASI. Not really sure what would a 100% ASI look like though, probably similar to them. There is no pure ASI left now

 

[INDIC]

Buddhism and Hinduism for sure have existed in Pakistan and Gandhara was a Buddhist/Hindu kingdom, however that does not mean present day Indians from the Ganga Valley went up there and formed a civilization.

Gandhara was the part of ancient Indian civilization, it is documented by both ancient Indian and ancient Greek sources. The people in Gandhara spoke an Indo-Aryan language derivative of Sanskrit.

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If you look at the history of the Vedic religion, it came from the NW part of south Asia and spread in to other parts of south asia, so it is the other way around rather

There are four Vedas, not only Rigveda. Rigveda was composed between banks of Indus-Yamuna.

 

[Tikolo]

Gandhara was the part of ancient Indian civilization, it is documented by both ancient Indian and ancient Greek sources. The people in Gandhara spoke an Indo-Aryan language derivative of Sanskrit.

so??? where did the indo aryan language and culture came from you think? ganga valley?

like I said before, the flow was from NW part of south to towards India, not the other way around

 

[Tikolo]

Andaman Islanders: