Aryans vs Dravidians?

[Tikolo]

Please mention me or quote me when you reply to me. I would have missed your post if I hadn't visited this thread again. The migrations took place around 3000 to 8000 years ago according to some studies so we can't pinpoint a precise date because the migration wouldn't have occurred all of a sudden. Caucasian does not simply mean Indo-European, it includes Semitic people as well, & based on the skull shape, the Harappans were Caucasians. Of course, we can't confirm if they were another bunch of Indo-Europeans unless we decrypt their language or study their DNA. One thing is certain, that the Vedic Aryans considered them distinct from themselves. The Indo-Iranian migrations took place during the later era of the Harappan civilization, but of course the migration did take place in stages according to some sources. That is why it's very difficult to pinpoint a precise date. Some of the migrants married local Harappan women as well, that is indicated by genetic research.

the most recent study just published last month (check harrapa ancestry) project says 4200 years is when Admixture between ANI and ASI started taking place, however I personally think that actual admixture must have started long before that, because even south indian tribal population show some ANI in them

 

[Water Car Engineer]

the most recent study just published last month (check harrapa ancestry) project says 4200 years is when Admixture between ANI and ASI started taking place, however I personally think that actual admixture must have started long before that, because even south indian tribal population show some ANI in them

You're right. South Indian tribals groups have ANI. And Pashtons all the way in the N.W. will have some ASI. After the Pashtons the ASI is lost.

It's amazing that S. Indian tribals will have up to 30% ANI when they're not even apart of the caste system. They are not even in the society in any empire. They were literally forest people. No one really came in and no one really came out.

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

What do you mean by Hindu influence? Why is it alway Hindu?

Even with the heavy cultural intrusion from the Greeks, Persians, Central Asians, there is an Indian base to the culture. You cant deny that.

Gandhara

East-Central India

Gandhara

East-Central India

Gandhara

East-Central India

Gandhara

East-Central India

"Hindu Dravidian" influence, no offence but only idiot will believe that Vedic Hinduism and current day Indian Hinduism is one and same.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

the most recent study just published last month (check harrapa ancestry) project says 4200 years is when Admixture between ANI and ASI started taking place, however I personally think that actual admixture must have started long before that, because even south indian tribal population show some ANI in them

Different sources state different dates, that is due to the difficulty involved in deriving an accurate time period through DNA. As our technology improves, we will be able to more precisely determine at what point in history migration & admixture begun to take place. At this point, consider it between 3000 to 8000 years ago. The Indo-Iranians did migrate towards other portions of the Sub-Continent, but they generally intermarried & mixed up with the locals there. Their primary settlements remained the north western & to an extent the northern regions of the Sub-Continent.

 

[Nassr]

which studies are you talking about? links? anyways pakistanis are defiantly closer to Iranians then they are to turks or present day central asians, unless you are talking about central asians before they mixed with east asian/mongols, we can't be certian at this point what was central asian dna like before mixing with east asian dna

Genetically, the closes people to Pakistanis are obviously North Indians, followed by Afghans and Iranians, then east indians (bengalis), south indians etc..... this is how pakistani genetic cline is

Oh there are quite a few studies and many conducted recently. Which North Indians are you referring to. Are you talking about the Ancestral North Indians (ASI) - the ASIs as referred to in the studies belong to India and not Pakistan. The closeness of borders does not necessarily make the Afghanis or Iranis or north Indians as genetically closer to large number of Pakistanis. Yes, there is admix but it is not as large as one may think it is except for people of southern Afghanistan. And the limited genetic linkages with North Indians are of much later descent due to later historical intermingling of people.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Yes, vedic culture is a prototype, obviously. All those vedic idiots did was throw **** in fire and sing mantras all day. Great, 1000 years wasted before Buddhism.

"Hindu Dravidian" influence, no offence but only idiot will believe that Vedic Hinduism and current day Indian Hinduism is one and same.

What you think those styles were Vedic Hinduism or something? That civilization was being developed in India.

 

[Nassr]

the most recent study just published last month (check harrapa ancestry) project says 4200 years is when Admixture between ANI and ASI started taking place, however I personally think that actual admixture must have started long before that, because even south indian tribal population show some ANI in them

This was the time when the IVC was fading or it had faded out. Therefore linking such conclusions without taking the archeological and historical perspective in view may lead to assumptions and not conclusions. In any case it is indeed very difficult to put a time line to genetic admix at this stage of scientific evolution though it may be possible at a later stage.

 

[Tikolo]

Oh there are quite a few studies and many conducted recently. Which North Indians are you referring to. Are you talking about the Ancestral North Indians (ASI) - the ASIs as referred to in the studies belong to India and not Pakistan. The closeness of borders does not necessarily make the Afghanis or Iranis or north Indians as genetically closer to large number of Pakistanis. Yes, there is admix but it is not as large as one may think it is except for people of southern Afghanistan. And the limited genetic linkages with North Indians are of much later descent due to later historical intermingling of people.

I am talking about the genetic distances of people that Harrapa ancestry project calculates, when I say north indians, I mean people like Punjabis, Rajashitanis, western Uttar pardesh, these people are obviously genetically closer to eastern pakistanis. Pakistani Pashtuns and Baloch are obviously closer to Afghans, then they are to northern Indians. It depends which group in Pakistan we are talking about

 

[Nassr]

Yes, vedic culture is a prototype, obviously. All those vedic idiots did was throw **** in fire and sing mantras all day. Great, 1000 years wasted before Buddhism.




What you think those styles were Vedic Hinduism or something? That civilization was being developed in India.

Could you please explain the difference between the Vedic and Hindu practices and cultures.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

What ever happened is a murky, but if these Central Asians that looked like this invaded India and Indian civilization ends up looking like this below 1000(2300ish BC)years after the invasion..

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

etc
etc

It's fair to say they took a lot from the culture that was already there.

 

[Nassr]

I am talking about the genetic distances of people that Harrapa ancestry project calculates, when I say north indians, I mean people like Punjabis, Rajashitanis, western Uttar pardesh, these people are obviously genetically closer to eastern pakistanis. Pakistani Pashtuns and Baloch are obviously closer to Afghans, then they are to northern Indians. It depends which group in Pakistan we are talking about

Firstly, the people of IVC include the people of Punjab, part of Rajasthan and part of Gujarat and definitely not Uttar Pradesh. Secondly, genetics does not necessarily relate to closeness of distances as in old days the linkages amongst the people were not as pronounced due to the distances as it were. Unless of-course there was a trade or other related exchanges amongst the populace of different places. The traditional ground trade route through Afghanistan between the IVC and Iran, Mesopotamia and Central Asia existed during the times of IVC and therefore the linkages. However, very little if at all any trade or other linkages existed between the people of Indus valley and Ganges valley and its adjoining plains. Therefore, despite the relative closeness of distances, there were hardly any linkages and hardly any genetic admix till much much later in the history.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

The genetic studies that I have seen indicate that though there is admix between Iranian and Pakistani people, it is much more pronounced in case of Central Asia and Pakistan as compared to Iran and Pakistan. The admix similarity between the Turks and Central Asian is also similar, which may indicate that Pakistanis are genetically more closer to Central Asians and Turks than the Iranians. The relationship between languages does not have to necessarily relate to the genetic admix and linguists say that the languages do not necessarily travel through migrations. This means that in a certain timeframe, there were more people who migrated from Turkey to Central Asia to Pakistan than from Iran to Pakistan. The Semite mix as you indicate may not be as pronounced as is the Iranian mix which is also not as pronounced. There however, is a mention of a Meluhha Kingdom on the borders of Egypt around 630 BC, which means that the Meluhhans from IVC migrated in large numbers from the IVC to Mesopotamia in the initial instance and later to Palestine.

The mixture between Iranian & Pakistani people refers to Indo-Iranian people. We are not referring to Persian mixture in the Pakistani populace because that would naturally be less. The Pashtuns, Balochis, northern Punjabis, & Kashmiris are all descendants of the Indo-Iranian migrations. Those migrations took place from Central Asia or Andronovo, it's important to remember that ancient Central Asia was different from the modern ethnic groups residing there. Pakistanis are not close to Turks at all, no genetic study ever indicated that. In fact all studies indicate relations to Indo-Iranian people & to an extent Eastern European people. Some Turkic groups were residing in Central Asia during the time the Indo-Iranian Sintashta culture was prevalent in Central Asia, but there is no known admixture between them.

Any Semitic or Turkic mixture present in the modern day Pakistani population took place within the Islamic era. That mixture is so little & in so few people that we might as well not consider it or even discuss it. The Sumerian term Meluhha was applied to the Harappans, but that does not imply that the Harappans migrated there. In fact, the Harappans are only known to have business relations as in trade with the Babylonians & Mesopotamians. Languages do not always travel through migration, they also travel through cultural or political dominance. However, in the case of the Sub-Continent, Afghanistan, & Iran, Indo-Iranian migrations took place towards Iran, Afghanistan, & the Indus Valley. Once the Indo-Iranian people settled in the north western regions of the Sub-Continent, their cultural dominance spread their languages all over the region. This is why Indo-Aryan languages are spoken all over the Sub-Continent even though most people do not descend from them. Genetic studies confirm this, & the reason the caste system was developed was to preserve their power & race. The Indo-Iranian people remained predominantly in the north western regions of the Sub-Continent.

From the perspective of given timeframe i.e. the IVC period (3300 BC-1900 BC), there is no known connection between the so-called Vedic Aryans and the IVC. Majority of the historians highlight that the Aryan migrations took place around or after 1500 BC, which means that the people of IVC could not have been the Aryans as they existed much earlier and much before these migrations began.

Those dates (particularly the 1500 BC migration) are not accurate because they are generally derived from Max Mueller's Aryan Invasion Theory which has been discredited. Max Mueller derived those dates in a manner that got them to conform with his religious beliefs in the Bible & its dates of the world's creation or something. That is why those dates are inaccurate.

The Indo-Iranians or Aryans migrated towards the Indus, they did not invade or enslave it. Their migration is said to have occurred around 3000 to 8000 years ago. The source that you asked for is present below.

Genetic evidence suggests European migrants may have influenced
the origins of India's caste system

This study focuses on India, but the dates for Indo-European migrations predominantly towards the north western regions of the Sub-Continent are still valid.

Please note that Sanskrit was at one point in time an unwritten language. In fact, I have read that the Aryans developed their script after interacting with the Harappans & other local people of the Sub-Continent.

In my opinion and I have read about it as well, the Vedic Aryans were the people of IVC who wrote the Rig Veda after the IVC faded out completely. And as these people were not Aryans in the first place, mention of Arya in the Rig Veda is used for these people as the noble ones and not as a race or a tribe. This also qualifies as the Rig Veda which in its earliest manifest essentially projects monotheism, which the people of the IVC were i.e. monotheists. Now, monotheism does not mean that they were Semite or Muslims or followers of Abrahamic religions. The Indians immediately start reacting to this as being Muslim.

That's not correct, genetic & historical evidence does not indicate that at all. The Vedic Aryans considered themselves distinct from the Harappans, even though they did marry their women sometimes. They migrated towards the Indus Valley in the later stages of that civilization & probably resided in Afghanistan before that. The Sanskrit language is different from the Harappan language. It isn't reasonable to believe that those people randomly forgot their language or history after the IVC's collapse. The term Aryan evolved in a manner similar to the word Roman. In the later era of the Roman empire, the Byzantines called themselves Romans even if they were Greek. That doesn't change the fact that the Romans are the people of Italy. Similarly, the term Aryan evolved in to meaning anyone that follows the Vedic culture or speaks their languages. It initially referred to a race, similar to Avestan's word "Arian". There is little proof that the people of the IVC were monotheists, & we won't know much till we decipher their language. The Vedic Aryans were not monotheists though.

Deciphering of the language may indicate its family amongst the languages which may not be enough to identify these people as Aryans unless they state it in the seals that infact they were Aryans or Meluhhans or future Pakistanis that they actually were.

Deciphering their language will help us to classify it as Indo-European, Dravidian, or even the possibility of it being Semitic, even though that is extremely unlikely. In the past, the original speakers of a language shared heritage with the original speakers of their language's sister languages. We already know that the Harappans hadn't been colonized previously so there language is bound to be their own. No other civilization has a script similar to theirs.

Anyway, this was a nice topic for discussion, but I am bored of it now. Let me know if you want me to provide you with more links of genetic studies or some other relevant sources.

 

[Nassr]

What ever happened is a murky, but if these Central Asians that looked like this invaded India and Indian civilization ends up looking like this below 1000(2300ish BC)years after the invasion..

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It's fair to say they took a lot from the culture that was already there.

Please understand that all the pilgrim-centres of Hinduism are located to the east of Haryana. There is no Hindu pilgrim centre worthy of particular note in the Punjab or the northwest India. We in Pakistan also do not have such a culture as you are portraying in the pics and as it is, there are very few Hindu pilgrim areas in Pakistan worthy of any name. And it is not because the Muslims destroyed it while they invaded this area, these were actually not there in any worthwhile number. Therefore your culture is also alien to us here in Pakistan.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Please understand that all the pilgrim-centres of Hinduism are located to the east of Haryana. There is no Hindu pilgrim centre worthy of particular note in the Punjab or the northwest India. We in Pakistan also do not have such a culture as you are portraying in the pics and as it is, there are very few Hindu pilgrim areas in Pakistan worthy of any name. And it is not because the Muslims destroyed it while they invaded this area, these were actually not there in any worthwhile number. Therefore your culture is also alien to us here in Pakistan.

Haryana is basically Punjab.

We in Pakistan also do not have such a culture as you are portraying in the pics and as it is, there are very few Hindu pilgrim areas in Pakistan worthy of any name.

Yeah, because it's like 2000++ years old. Look at the pictures of Gandhara art. When Gandhara started to produce art in the Gerco-Roman style you can see that base of the culture-civilization is Indic in nature, with added spice from the Greeks, etc. And this is after 1000 years of Greek, Persian, Central Asian intrusion.

Therefore your culture is also alien to us here in Pakistan.

Oh trust me, the culture of Gandhara would be alien to Western Pakistan and Eastern Afghanistan as well. Persian culture would be alien to modern Iran. Pre-Islamic cultures of Arab would be alien to Arabia, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Nassr]

Haryana is basically Punjab.

Yeah, because it's like 2000++ years old. Look at the pictures of Gandhara art. When Gandhara started to produce art in the Gerco-Roman style you can see that base of the culture-civilization is Indic in nature, with added spice from the Greeks, etc. And this is after 1000 years of Greek, Persian, Central Asian intrusion.

I know Haryana was part of old Punjab - I referred it because of the present understanding.

The only difference that I have with you is Gandhara being Indic. When India didn't exist at that time it can not be related to India which is a much later advent. And the IVC area which is west of the watershed that divides the Indus and Gangetic plains was only part of a politically unified Indo-Gangetic Plain only three times in the known history of over 9000 years during the times of Mauryas, Muslims and British rule. We the people of IVC do not call anything within this area as Indic.