Arunachal shows China how democracy works

[grey boy 2]

Look at what Indians had accomplished under your so called

democracy;

India tops world hunger chart - India - The Times of India

Indians Tops World Hunger Chart

Kounteya Sinha, TNN 27 February 2009, 02:29am IST

NEW DELHI: India is failing its rural poor with 230 million people being undernourished — the highest for any country in the world. Malnutrition
accounts for nearly 50% of child deaths in India as every third adult (aged 15-49 years) is reported to be thin (BMI less than 18.5).

According to the latest report on the state of food insecurity in rural India, more than 1.5 million children are at risk of becoming malnourished because of rising global food prices.

The report said that while general inflation declined from a 13-year high exceeding 12% in July 2008 to less than 5% by the end of January 2009, the inflation for food articles doubled from 5% to over 11% during the same period.

Foodgrain harvest during 2008-09 is estimated to be a record 228 million tonnes. However, the requirement for the national population would exceed 250 million tonnes by 2015.

India ranks 94th in the Global Hunger Index of 119 countries, the report said.

Brought out by the United Nations World Food Programme (WFP), the report points to some staggering figures. More than 27% of the world's undernourished population lives in India while 43% of children (under 5 years) in the country are underweight. The figure is among the highest in the world and is much higher than the global average of 25% and also higher than sub-Saharan Africa's figure of 28%.

More than 70% of children (under-5) suffer from anaemia and 80% of them don't get vitamin supplements. According to the report, the proportion of anaemic children has actually increased by 6% in the past six years with 11 out of 19 states having more than 80% of its children suffering from anaemia.

Percentage of women with chronic energy deficiency is stagnant at 40% over six years with the proportion in fact increasing in Assam, Bihar, Madhya Pradesh and Haryana during the same period.

The report said that the ambitious Targeted Public Distribution System (TPDS) was failing. "Apart from failing to serve the intended goal of reduction of food subsidies, the TPDS also led to greater food insecurity for large sections of the poor and the near-poor. These targeting errors arise due to imperfect information, inexact measurement of household characteristics, corruption and inefficiency," the report said.

It added, "Another problem of the TPDS was the issue of quantity of grain that a household would be entitled to. The TPDS initially restricted the allotments to BPL households to 10 kg per month. For a family of five, this amounts to 2 kg per capita. Using the ICMR recommended norm of 330 grams per day, the requirement per person per month would be 11 kg and that for a family of five would be 55 kg."

The Union Budget of 2001 increased the allotment to 20 kg per month and raised it further to 35 kg in April 2002.

The report also questioned the government's definitions of hunger and poverty. "The fact that calorie deprivation is increasing during a period when the proportion of rural population below the poverty line is claimed to be declining rapidly, highlights the increasing disconnect between official poverty estimates and calorie deprivation," it said.

"Nutrition security involving physical, economic and social access to balanced diet, clean drinking water, sanitation and primary healthcare for every child, woman and man is fundamental to providing all our citizens an opportunity for a healthy and productive life," said Prof M S Swaminathan.

Almost 80% of rural households do not have access to toilets within their premises. The figure exceeds 90% in states like Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, Orissa and MP.

The proportion of stunted children (under-5) at 48% is again among the highest in the world. Every second child in the country is stunted, according to the health ministry's figures.

Around 30% of babies in India are born underweight.

So if this will be the result for the type of democracy you want to

Show China, better off save it for you "Happy Indians" only.

 

[Merilion]

Eventually China has to turn to democracy and India has to reduce its bureaucracy. India also cant expect to have Mao who has destroy places of worship and stamp CCP on it. So things change but a snail pace! At the end of the day, it is a matter of preference - Indians choose democracy and Chinese choose growth.

I agree.

IMHO, the average education level of a nation's population has to be up to a certain level to have a 'good' democracy in the country. The best and fastest way to up lift a country's education level is perhaps through economic growth. If a country's gdp per capita is low then the priority should be given to growth, once the gdp per capita reaches a certain threshold then the priority should be given to political reform(democracy), afterall you cannot really manage a country with a mass educated population without democracy. I see China is on the right track. Of course this is only my personal opinion but I believe many Chinese people including the educated one are holding the same belief.
There are many democracy countries in the world but apart from India, can you think of any other democracy countries with mass poors can be considered successful? What have those poor countries achieved other than being democracy? What's the purpose to be democracy if those countries cannot take care of their own mass poor?

 

[rajeev]

I agree.

IMHO, the average education level of a nation's population has to be up to a certain level to have a 'good' democracy in the country. The best and fastest way to up lift a country's education level is perhaps through economic growth. If a country's gdp per capita is low then the priority should be given to growth, once the gdp per capita reaches a certain threshold then the priority should be given to political reform(democracy), afterall you cannot really manage a country with a mass educated population without democracy. I see China is on the right track. Of course this is only my personal opinion but I believe many Chinese people including the educated one are holding the same belief.
There are many democracy countries in the world but apart from India, can you think of any other democracy countries with mass poors can be considered successful? What have those poor countries achieved other than being democracy? What's the purpose to be democracy if those countries cannot take care of their own mass poor?

Most democratic institutions are new in its entirety, except ofcourse good old US of A. Most countries in Europe cherished democracy in a big way only after second world war. After the second world war, most of Europe was in shatters, though still not as poor as India. They based their economic growth with democracy intact.

India is prime example how democracy can also work in a poor and diverse country. Before India, people assumed that concept in the based on flawed model. But as you can see India works!

I feel like there is a barrier between what we both are talking. You cherish GDP growth, while I cherish freedom. The GDP growth difference we are talking about only in term 1-2 % points - not huge.

If you ask anyone other than Chinese whether it is easy to make a democratic country apply open-economy reforms and integrate with global trade, or is it easy to move a decent economy to democracy, large majority would say political process is way more difficult. The last time when the attempt was made by USSR to do so ended up breaking the country.

Political union is not caused because people like each other. It is a concept and it takes a long time. And during political development from authoritarian rule to democratic, many power brokers have to comprise. If a comprise cannot be reached, people would start shifting coins in their favor.

I am not saying China should have fate that USSR had, but you cannot forgo that possibility.

In case of India, tell me how hard will it be slowly draining down the bureaucracy. In 1991, when India adopted open-economic reforms, majority of Indians were opposed to it. In 2008 poll, more than 80% people supports it. So you see it takes time because opinions are considered and so many power brokers have to be satisfied to get any work done but the end of the day, there is less hard-feelings between people.

What would a guy do if Chinese govt destroys his home and gives him compensation? Wont that generate resentment? You could say it is good for growth and everyone accepts that but in the end if the same issue comes to your own home, you would like a say about it. What if CCP ignores your concerns for any future events, there is always a threshold.

Democratic institutions are very hard to build. Look at most of India's neighbours. Other than SriLanka, most of them have trouble maintaining control over army while others have monarchy.

China is a shining example of what can go right with authoritarian rule, but look at Burma(Myanmar) or Pakistan or Mugabe. There are lot of things that can go wrong. In that, if I have put my bet, I will bet on democracy.

I dont know whether I was able to show you the advantages, but you surely do see my point of view on the subject.

 

[arihant]

It's matter of democracy and not hunger. What you shown is just one example. India has tones of problems like other countries.

We are talking about democracy and we should stick with it. The article you posted has been discussed separately if you aware.

Although, China has been successful without democracy, but no doubt they could have archived more with democracy. Development is no way related to democracy or dictatorship, its more a way of how politics and there people behave. China has achieved because of its people's will rather democracy or dictatorship.

Democracy is a right rather then path of development.

 

[aditiwari007]

Read this before shooting sh@t from your big mouth !

Indian democracy is not true democracy, its call "CASTOCRACY"

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_caste.asp

Whatever you call our democracy or think of it, it is much much better than communism. At least a person who thinks that the govt. policies are wrong can protest without fearing that the govt. would crush him with tanks!!!

 

[third eye]

Why are we slipping into this ' mine is better than yours ' syndrome ?

If Communism works for China - great & good luck. In India we are happy they way our democracy works. Why should it bother anyone ?

 

[aditiwari007]

You can keep your middle fingers for now, but they are already all Chinese property. I am quite optimistic that pretty soon we will develop the frencho penchant of cutting of British middle fingers.

You need those fingers, trust me.

Actually according to China, the whole world will be its property.
Arunachal is its property bcoz long, long ago, it belonged to Tibet, which China has unjustfully occupied.
Tommorow, it will put claims on Vietnam, Russia bcoz they all are communists.
Then they will put claims on most of the europe bcoz "long ago" Catherine, the great had captured many parts of it.
Next comes African nations bcoz "once" ago they were colonized by europeans.
And dont forget US bcoz US citizens are actually european immigrants!!!

Thank god, if martians ever existed, they died long ago before seeing the communist republic of china.

 

[aditiwari007]

Look at what Indians had accomplished under your so called

democracy;

India tops world hunger chart - India - The Times of India

Indians Tops World Hunger Chart

Kounteya Sinha, TNN 27 February 2009, 02:29am IST

NEW DELHI: India is failing its rural poor with 230 million people being undernourished — the highest for any country in the world. Malnutrition
accounts for nearly 50% of child deaths in India as every third adult (aged 15-49 years) is reported to be thin (BMI less than 18.5).

According to the latest report on the state of food insecurity in rural India, more than 1.5 million children are at risk of becoming malnourished because of rising global food prices.

The report said that while general inflation declined from a 13-year high exceeding 12% in July 2008 to less than 5% by the end of January 2009, the inflation for food articles doubled from 5% to over 11% during the same period.

Foodgrain harvest during 2008-09 is estimated to be a record 228 million tonnes. However, the requirement for the national population would exceed 250 million tonnes by 2015.

India ranks 94th in the Global Hunger Index of 119 countries, the report said.

Brought out by the United Nations World Food Programme (WFP), the report points to some staggering figures. More than 27% of the world's undernourished population lives in India while 43% of children (under 5 years) in the country are underweight. The figure is among the highest in the world and is much higher than the global average of 25% and also higher than sub-Saharan Africa's figure of 28%.

More than 70% of children (under-5) suffer from anaemia and 80% of them don't get vitamin supplements. According to the report, the proportion of anaemic children has actually increased by 6% in the past six years with 11 out of 19 states having more than 80% of its children suffering from anaemia.

Percentage of women with chronic energy deficiency is stagnant at 40% over six years with the proportion in fact increasing in Assam, Bihar, Madhya Pradesh and Haryana during the same period.

The report said that the ambitious Targeted Public Distribution System (TPDS) was failing. "Apart from failing to serve the intended goal of reduction of food subsidies, the TPDS also led to greater food insecurity for large sections of the poor and the near-poor. These targeting errors arise due to imperfect information, inexact measurement of household characteristics, corruption and inefficiency," the report said.

It added, "Another problem of the TPDS was the issue of quantity of grain that a household would be entitled to. The TPDS initially restricted the allotments to BPL households to 10 kg per month. For a family of five, this amounts to 2 kg per capita. Using the ICMR recommended norm of 330 grams per day, the requirement per person per month would be 11 kg and that for a family of five would be 55 kg."

The Union Budget of 2001 increased the allotment to 20 kg per month and raised it further to 35 kg in April 2002.

The report also questioned the government's definitions of hunger and poverty. "The fact that calorie deprivation is increasing during a period when the proportion of rural population below the poverty line is claimed to be declining rapidly, highlights the increasing disconnect between official poverty estimates and calorie deprivation," it said.

"Nutrition security involving physical, economic and social access to balanced diet, clean drinking water, sanitation and primary healthcare for every child, woman and man is fundamental to providing all our citizens an opportunity for a healthy and productive life," said Prof M S Swaminathan.

Almost 80% of rural households do not have access to toilets within their premises. The figure exceeds 90% in states like Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, Orissa and MP.

The proportion of stunted children (under-5) at 48% is again among the highest in the world. Every second child in the country is stunted, according to the health ministry's figures.

Around 30% of babies in India are born underweight.

So if this will be the result for the type of democracy you want to

Show China, better off save it for you "Happy Indians" only.

Hitler's germany and USSR were much better than China or any other country if we consider all these stats.
But at the end look, what happened.
Friend, dont you feel frustated under that system where you have to take permission from Communist party even for changing your underwear!!

 

[grey boy 2]

Hitler's germany and USSR were much better than China or any other country if we consider all these stats.
But at the end look, what happened.
Friend, dont you feel frustated under that system where you have to take permission from Communist party even for changing your underwear!!

See once you Indians lost in debate, you started to troll !

Read the topic; Its about Indians want to show China how your so-

called democracy works.

If you can't counter my argument which your so-called democracy

is a joke with facts, better shut the hell up or you will be reported

for trolling and flaming !!

 

[aditiwari007]

See once you Indians lost in debate, you started to troll !

Read the topic; Its about Indians want to show China how your so-

called democracy works.

If you can't counter my argument which your so-called democracy

is a joke with facts, better shut the hell up or you will be reported

for trolling and flaming !!

Hey, I am just comparing democracy with communism and other forms of govt.
I hope that u would have been taught the difference between communism and democracy.
And its not bullshit, its something called "political freedom". I hope that u have not forgotten its meaning after 1989.

 

[Honor]

Democracy will not work in China. It will make China lose it's direction.
Do not worry for China as CCP structure itself will ensure that our leaders will not overuse their power.

Democracy make bring more harm to it's people sometime. There is simple too many views among people to go forward.

 

[ever4244]

My friends, I lived in china for 2yrs, 2007 & 2008. and now travel often there. When I was in China before Olympics, I couldn't get access to most of the English news sites, like CNN, BBC etc. After complaining a lot the local police came to visit me, and he called in my ISP, and they opened up English web site for me, as a special situation. when ever I traveled outside my base, say I am traveling to Shanghai, i stayed in hotels which had CNN, and BBC Asia. but whenever any news about China came on, the TV goes black. so basically most of the Chinese common peasant know is what government of China tell them. during Olympic they did open up foreign news access to internet, but kind of censored one. Thats what the freedom is. in china Government controls every aspect of peoples life.

Question No.1: Why have I always be able to access CNN or guardian for all this years? Common farmer don t read news from foreign media is mainly because their language barriers.

For example if some one from Anhui province want to study in Beijing, its a dream, unless his or her uncle is a party member. same goes to work also. with in the country Chinese are not allowed to travel freely, or allowed to choose to work wherever they want to work.

Curiosity No.2: How on earth that I studied in shanghai when I don't have a 'Shanghai hukou'? If some guy can not study in Beijing would only because his marks is not enough for the colleges there.

all i want to say is, they really do not know what freedom is, or democracy is. I am not going to tell you I know everything about China either. but when i read this forum, when someone from China write about India, and democracy, i feel its kind of oxymoron.

So, we can t give critique on india and its democracy just because we don t have the supposed freedom? A hasty generalization sentence all chinese into mute just because our gov are different, when the indians keep babbling on democracy this democracy that endlessly? Thats your version of democracy right?

If a Chinese really think he has freedom, tell him to gather a group of 100 people, and shout against the almighty CCP. or try have a third child. I do know India is not perfect, but at least a guy from small village in tamilnadu can go to Delhi, and start working with out anyone permission, or he can have 12 kids, if he wants, or gather 1000s of people and shout against PM of India. He has freedom of language, freedom of movement, justice, religion, speech etc. In China go and ask southern people. Well soon they wont able to teach Canton in their schools the way things are going.

To sum up, he can do whatever he like to undermine the communal interests of entire nation Some jackass with a big mouth can rock the boat when others are in urgent need of stability and development right? You know when is the most democractic period in China's history? Culture revolution I tell you!

Please do not talk about cast system in India. Because you dont know what you talking about. Cheers all. Have a wonderful day.

If you can talk about china why cant I talk about india? a piece of paper namely 'vote' cant save you from the disgrace that 'Castes' the most vicious racial discrimination is still rampant in india.

Talking about democracy, I have yet to see its direct relationship with social justice and equality, which are both the product of development rather than democracy. For instance, US is one of the last major powers to abolish slavery and racial segregation while other European kindoms already introduce measures of social wellfare. Given the passive nature of democracy, and the huge momentum of public opinion, it is more suitable for democratical gov to keep the course than to radically reform the direction--which are dearly required to abolish castes and sexual discrimination in third world nations.

In the case of china, the main reason we dont choose democracy in 1949 is because a democratic gov could not forcibly confiscate land from landlords and divide them to peasants. It would neither have the will nor the power to push forward the industrialization and culture reform policy from which we havesting benefit 50 years later. Therefore chinese people choose to perfer the Greater good to the justice of procedure and forge the nowaday PRC the world seeing in awe. Without passing hasty judgement on the morality of this approach, I leave you a tip: The balance of Greater good and the justice of procedure is vary from culture to culture. In china, where the collectivism dominate, we perceive democracy and freedom only as means or results rather than inherited rights. If democracy can only make china another india, then we would rather wait a few decades until we are ready.

 

[indiatech]

This isn't a communism vs democrats thread. We don't need explanation about how good is communism. This is about arunachal.

As for the Chinese , well they have no history or cultural influence even along the borders of arunachal. Neither does anyone likes communists or narrow minded Chinese . So stay out of Arunachal and is non of china's business. In fact I would like our coward leaders to say it loud.

Chinese might have gained confidence being able to sabotage and rule Tibet and Tibetans. But you lay your hands on arunachal and our army and people of NE will strike china real hard.

A world free of communists and back to thread please.

 

[indiatech]

Stomach hunger AP residents move to China. They vote by feet: http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defence/16289-crossovers-china-worry-arunachal.html

embarrasing. those are chinese going back to CCP china seeing good roads. Earlier must have migrated to india. Wish them happy journey to back prosperity and land of opportunity called china. $ 120 per month salary for the best job in market . Good luck.

 

[indiatech]

Just as Hukou dosen't work in today's China, your vote can't keep people from hunger.

Much to your horror, PRC is planning to abolish Hukou.

Are you going to abolish your vote?

Greatest joke of the century. Hukou doesn't work in china.

Why not ask some of the few million chinese prostitues in USA itself. Or try migrating to Sanghai and Shenzen.

Pathetic China. No human values at all.