Army, Rangers accused of stealing water

[TechLahore]

These claims appeared in the paper just this morning. Nothing has been proven or substantiated in a court of law. Using this as a means to troll here is highly disingenuous as it opens to the door for people to counter with any sort of wild accusation against a country/institution that they despise. We don't want the level of discussion here degenerating into wild finger pointing... to the greatest extent it can be avoided, at least, on an open forum of this scale.

The PA is extremely sensitive about its *domestic* image. I assure you that if there is even an iota of truth to these claims, you will see action being taken immediately. Journalists will often take some isolated incidents and try to sensationalize the story by crafting a tale of a grand conspiracy. From what I can tell, this is horse manure.

 

[sparklingway]

These claims appeared in the paper just this morning. Nothing has been proven or substantiated in a court of law. Using this as a means to troll here is highly disingenuous as it opens to the door for people to counter with any sort of wild accusation against a country/institution that they despise. We don't want the level of discussion here degenerating into wild finger pointing... to the greatest extent it can be avoided, at least, on an open forum of this scale.

The PA is extremely sensitive about its *domestic* image. I assure you that if there is even an iota of truth to these claims, you will see action being taken immediately. Journalists will often take some isolated incidents and try to sensationalize the story by crafting a tale of a grand conspiracy. From what I can tell, this is horse manure.

While the military indeed is extremely sensitive towards maintaining a pristine image (why else would it maintain such a big PR setup), questions posed during the recent past have gone unheard. ISPR replied "no comments" over the issue of an arrest warrant being issued against a Maj who had been posted abroad after investigation started against him in a land grabbing case. Similarly, there was no word about the ASI/Inspector of NH&MP being beaten up by soldiers for allegedly issuing a speeding ticket to an officer, no reply on the issue of a shopkeeper being beaten up in Multan for giving evidence against two officers driving on the wrong side of the road or the constable of CTP Lahore being beaten up by soldiers for asking the removal of tinting plastic from the windows of a staff car.

While some may use this issue to express their disdain against a state institution, it is entirely pointless to argue that this is "horse manure" for I hardly heard such terms when a baseless, sensationalized, grand conspiracy theory report emerges accusing a certain politician. There should be no sympathy for anyone when it comes to accountability. "Protecting our own" has created the selective accountability process that we despise.

The media and the general public hold everybody of a higher social/political statute accused of any crime as guilty then and there without a due legal course of action. Your point is well founded but goes into the holy cow business very soon as well.

 

[TechLahore]

While the military indeed is extremely sensitive towards maintaining a pristine image (why else would it maintain such a big PR setup), questions posed during the recent past have gone unheard. ISPR replied "no comments" over the issue of an arrest warrant being issued against a Maj who had been posted abroad after investigation started against him in a land grabbing case. Similarly, there was no word about the ASI/Inspector of NH&MP being beaten up by soldiers for allegedly issuing a speeding ticket to an officer, no reply on the issue of a shopkeeper being beaten up in Multan for giving evidence against two officers driving on the wrong side of the road or the constable of CTP Lahore being beaten up by soldiers for asking the removal of tinting plastic from the windows of a staff car.

While some may use this issue to express their disdain against a state institution, it is entirely pointless to argue that this is "horse manure" for I hardly heard such terms when a baseless, sensationalized, grand conspiracy theory report emerges accusing a certain politician. There should be no sympathy for anyone when it comes to accountability. "Protecting our own" has created the selective accountability process that we despise.

The media and the general public hold everybody of a higher social/political statute accused of any crime as guilty then and there without a due legal course of action. Your point is well founded but goes into the holy cow business very soon as well.

Watching TV for 5 minutes in Pakistan makes you realize there are no holy cows in Pakistan.

The point is that if there is something behind this allegation it will get high level attention. I have seen junior officers who, in a fit of emotion, misbehaved in Liberty market with a civilian driver, get punished so severely that not only will their careers be impacted for ever, they are not likely to forget the 'other' aspects of the punishment anytime soon.

The 'great army conspiracy to steal water' undercurrent is what I was referring to as horse manure.

 

[sparklingway]

The 'great army conspiracy to steal water' undercurrent is what I was referring to as horse manure.

I didn't see that going on for 356 cusecs does not constitute any river that I have ever seen (maybe Thames for the British always in their effort to glamorize and present in grandeur whatever small piece of natural beauty they had, have filled books with the grandeur and massiveness of Thames while in reality it hardly is bigger than Nullah Leh )

 

[qsaark]

Sparklingway,

I have stopped taking part into these discussions primarily because very few will agree with you, and even fewer will have courage to openly express their agreement. We are a nation that has been exploited in the name of two things, Islam and Army. Both are sacred cows and nobody has a right to say a word against the two as the one who dares is quickly labeled as a kaafir and traitor respectively. The armed forces are respected in all the countries, but above the law? that is something endemic in martial-law stricken countries and Pakistan is mashaAllah among the leaders of such countries. Someone talked about the court of law... what court of law? since when the Constitution of Pakistan and Pakistan Penal Code applied on the armed forces?

There is a great proverb in Urdu, 'Haathi key paaon mein sab ka paaon". So I'll suggest you to leave it here as it will yield to nothing. In Pakistan, a dismissed Army Chief can reinstate himself and throw his superior (the Prime Minister) into jail for the 'crime' of exercising his (PM's) legal and constitutional rights, and you are talking about God knows what. Come out of hallucination and smell coffee, would you?

 

[sparklingway]

Sparklingway,

I have stopped taking part into these discussions primarily because very few will agree with you, and even fewer will have courage to openly express their agreement. We are a nation that has been exploited in the name of two things, Islam and Army. Both are sacred cows and nobody has a right to say a word against the two as the one who dares is quickly labeled as a kaafir and traitor respectively. The armed forces are respected in all the countries, but above the law? that is something endemic in martial-law stricken countries and Pakistan is mashaAllah among the leaders of such countries. Someone talked about the court of law... what court of law? since when the Constitution of Pakistan and Pakistan Penal Code applied on the armed forces?

There is a great proverb in Urdu, 'Haathi key paaon mein sab ka paaon". So I'll suggest you to leave it here as it will yield to nothing. In Pakistan, a dismissed Army Chief can reinstate himself and throw his superior (the Prime Minister) into jail for the 'crime' of exercising his (PM's) legal and constitutional rights, and you are talking about God knows what. Come out of hallucination and smell coffee, would you?

But, I'd rather keep my opinion restricted to the topic here for I realize the sensitiveness of the topic, the general perceptions and inclinations and the charged debate that can follow. While, I respect your opinion and resonate many of your views in this regard, I find it appropriate to limit my opinion to this specific case and if provoked expand my argument. Necessarily going into the argument that the military has been the single largest factor in the failure of democracy, rise of a security state and use of Islam as a political tool is not necessary all the time as well. There's a circle around the topic that I'd like to restrict my opinion to. Going outside that is called trolling and I'd wish not to indulge in that.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

Bahawalpur has been the biggest victim of the loot sale of agricultural land that has taken place since the late '90s, the other being DG Khan. It is nothing new for local landlords, feudals and aristocrats to exploit local water resources, twist arms to get water supplies and bend policies to get farm to market roads through their fields. Retired and serving armed forces top brass who get huge agricultural land allocations are absentee feudals and continue the system of authoritarianism. It is somehow considered unacceptable to refer to this as a continuation of the colonial system of buying allegiance by giving land grants. I'm digressing off the topic though...

The involvement of an institution directly, by means of contracted employees, is far more alarming and disturbing. I'm hopeful that the Department of Irrigation will be able to get its word forward to the MoD and the MoI and get a positive reply. Inter department cooperation is necessary to solve these problems. If anybody is found to have used force for whatever reasons, he should be punished and dealt appropriately.

"Retired and serving armed forces top brass who get huge agricultural land allocations are absentee feudals and continue the system of authoritarianism."

It is very true. PA Generals including politicians have done anything possibly they could do in the name of religion and whatnot. You cannot ignore the fact by labelling "no one is holy cow." If this is what you are up to than Zardari is not a "holy cow" so why he had clashes with Pakistan Army?
Easy way out is not the best way to go far.
All we are suggesting here is that Pakistan Army should get out of old mindset i.e. "General ki lathi us ki bhaans" and should concentrate to produce more effective and honest soldiers including generals.
Do you really think that Chief of the Army Staff is "only" appointed by the recommendations of our country's political leadership without the interference of the United States?

We need reforms in Pakistan Army, political structure and civilians.

Now coming back to the topic..
I think that Pakistan Army one way or the other is exploiting the civilian rights whether it be land etc
We don't have hatred against our soldiers. I mean they are protecting us from outside by working all night.
^^ But this does not mean that one can do anything they want to.

"Tu tu main main" is not the solution.

 

[sparklingway]

"Retired and serving armed forces top brass who get huge agricultural land allocations are absentee feudals and continue the system of authoritarianism."

It is very true. PA Generals including politicians have done anything possibly they could do in the name of religion and whatnot. You cannot ignore the fact by labelling "no one is holy cow." If this is what you are up to than Zardari is not a "holy cow" so why he had clashes with Pakistan Army?
Easy way out is not the best way to go far.
All we are suggesting here is that Pakistan Army should get out of old mindset i.e. "General ki lathi us ki bhaans" and should concentrate to produce more effective and honest soldiers including generals.
Do you really think that Chief of the Army Staff is "only" appointed the recommendations of our country's political leadership without the interference of the United States?

We need reforms in Pakistan Army, political structure and civilians.

Yet again, a thread has become a victim of off topic postings and trolling (not you but others were doing it and have been dealth with by mods).

All I have to say is this:-

PS:- With this and previous posts, I have myself committed this shameful act as well.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

Yet again, a thread has become a victim of off topic postings and trolling (not you but others were doing it and have been dealth with by mods).

All I have to say is this:-

​

Conclusions are based on wider studies.
If we want to discuss that PA "is" exploiting than we have to discuss it in a broader way not just water issue.

I did not troll over here but I sure was off topic but again..

"Conclusions are based on wider studies."

 

[yawar saeed khan]

Sir, with due apology i don’t know how and with what surety you are talking about compliance of court orders that too by the ARMY?
I am a victim of a fraud committed by a serving army major Major Zubair Ali Khan PA 38111 of 63 FF regiment. His arrest warrants were issued by the court of senior civil judge after which Islamabad Police wrote to the GHQ to produce him for further interrogation and investigation yet his handing over was delayed.
Prior to his departure on a UN mission duty on 9th may 2009 SSP Islamabad wrote again to the Lt, Col who was dealing his case in PS Directorate that he is yet to be handed over to Islamabad Police as he is required. That letter of 09th may 2009 was kept concealed till the accused officer got his safe exit out of Pakistan.
Though he was nominated in the FIR 333 of PS Kohsar he was promoted to the rank of major and later on when Islamabad Police was trying to comply with the orders of the court he was posted on UN mission duty in haste. Taking serious notice of this casual attitude the judge declared him a PO.
Till to date I am running from pillar to post to get justice but in spite of my so many request and virtual begging to the GHQ he is not being handed over and he is performing duty in Gujranwala Cantt though he is a declared proclaimed absconder/ offender of the court.
WORD ISHTAHARI MUJRIM MEANS A PERSON WHO IS UNTRACEABLE, PA 38111 Major Zubair Ali Khan of 63 FF Regiment presently posted in Gujranawala Cantt, dose this in any way sounds like a person untraceable?
It is so painful that an institution like Pakistan Army which is pride of the entire nation and is known for its highest order of discipline will ever spare a person who is being declared a PO by the courts of Pakistan can ever ignore his guilt? But unfortunately some well wisher of the accuse officers are becoming a hurdle in dispensing of justice to an aggrieved family. They are forgetting that this casual and biased attitude of them is tarnishing the image of the entire Pakistan Army and they are doing a crime of contempt of the courts by defying the Court orders.
I tried my best to get this matter resolved in a pure amicable and respectable way with out committing this mistake that in any way or any means I could ever become a source of embarrassment to this institution Pakistan Army, thinking that as soon as the matter will come into notice of the superiors they will intervene and pass immediate orders of his court martial and then handing over to the Police but no action has been taken so far so I was forced to move to High Court where I filled writ Petition 2038/2011 on 24 June 2011 the learned judge of the HIGH COURT has passed orders to the IGP and SSP Islamabad to arrest all the accuse of the FIR 333/07 without any further delay this includes Major Zubair Ali Khan as he is also one of the 4 POs of the case.
Now let us see how fast and swiftly the GHQ complies the orders of the High Court.