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Army needs to stop doing internal operations.

Several were raised during recent years. And trained by SSG themselves. So if they still can't be trusted than SSG also needs to answer for that.
The SSG can train them, but are they keeping up with their training after the initial course?

Are there standards & requirements that they need to pass annually (marksmanship, physical & mental fitness)?

Just because someone gets trained by the SSG initially doesn't mean they are qualified for the rest of their lives.
 
You smackheads whatever the troops learned from this engagement will be passed on to the police force and other agencies stop being crackpots
 
You smackheads whatever the troops learned from this engagement will be passed on to the police force and other agencies stop being crackpots

Exactly. I don’t know why this isn’t automatically understood. Though i do understand some members lamenting the use of SSG. It’s already stretched everywhere.
 
Thats not he point. The point that civilian authorities should have the capability to handle these situation.
Well, why that's not the point? Army is not stopping them to do that rather it would be much pleased if the civilians authorities can take care of internal issues themselves and let the army focus on external threats.
 
There is no personal Gussa. But time to have Police do the job it should have been doing. And if Army will keep doing internal job than sorry it would keep stretched and it could be prove to be fatal in case of war with India. Time to hand over internal security to Police. Just focus on their training instead of doing internal operations. Police have fought terrorism also for 12 years now they have to be trusted now.

That's a silly argument. War with India is not a regular occurrence. We don't need the SSG's sitting around doing nothing waiting for a war with India. We have this specialized resource. We need to use it when needed and appropriate. You can't expect moderately trained police forces to go against heavily-armed militants who have been training themselves to fight our COIN forces. They will get slaughtered.
 
There is no personal Gussa. But time to have Police do the job it should have been doing. And if Army will keep doing internal job than sorry it would keep stretched and it could be prove to be fatal in case of war with India. Time to hand over internal security to Police. Just focus on their training instead of doing internal operations. Police have fought terrorism also for 12 years now they have to be trusted now.
 
Army is not stopping them to do that rather it would be much pleased if the civilians authorities can take care of internal issues themselves and let the army focus on external threats.
Exactly. And that should be done.
Im not against Army carrying out that operation like some other members saying police should do it even if its not capable and will learn from it. It will be just a bloodbath and terrorists would be play holi with blood of police.
Im saying, make a separate force and put it under civil authority, draw its men from army on voluntary deputation, like its done in NSG.
Lets be honest, Pak doesnt have resources to raise a force from the ground, so has to go hybrid, much like India went with NSG decades ago and now its premier CT force in country and i daresay one of the finest CT force.
 
i think in Pakistan it is not possible as we are facing much dangerous situation than western countries due to our border with Afghanistan and u.s presence in region and their implantation of isis ,if western countries face similar situation their police will also fail and they will also need army to fight such heavily armed and trained terrorists

Agreed. We are quick at jumping to conclusion that our police ain't performing well in comparison to the police SWAT teams of Western countries while ignoring the fact that they never had to face such hard core terrorists in closely packed urban areas with very limited ingress and lack of exfil or they would also had to call in national guard (reserve army) to handle the situation.
 
Exactly. And that should be done.
Im not against Army carrying out that operation like some other members saying police should do it even if its not capable and will learn from it. It will be just a bloodbath and terrorists would be play holi with blood of police.
Im saying, make a separate force and put it under civil authority, draw its men from army on voluntary deputation, like its done in NSG.
Lets be honest, Pak doesnt have resources to raise a force from the ground, so has to go hybrid, much like India went with NSG decades ago and now its premier CT force in country and i daresay one of the finest CT force.
Army only gets involve when either the local administration or police requests them ....or it is directly affecting army itself like cantonment or other installations. So if the civilian authorities request army, it has to respond and help them and despite the crap media especially Indian & foreign media throws at it, Pak army obeys civilian commands and helps them in every difficult situation.
 
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Police started Hayatabad operation there was no need of Army to jump in. You want Police to learn than let them learn or end Police Force and take over internal security and also arrest those who do ATM frauds. If don't want to than let Police learn.

Its heavy civilian population area and not suitable for experiments.
 
Regarding the issue of Police taking over anti terror opps, well majority of IBOs are now handled by the CTD. Some opps are high value and require certain skill sets which require SF. It is like that in the entire world, some terror opps will always require SF no matter how trained ur Police maybe.

A more imp issue which must be tackled is the unchecked media frenzy, i understand that any major terrorist incident like a huge suicide bombing etc has to be reported but IBO's like this, low prof target killings and the occasional IED does not have to be reported, by doing this we are ourselves presenting Pakistan as an unsafe entity.

A little cracker goes off and all channels start yelling breaking news for an hour like crazy baboons. The media does this to generate ratings at the cost of Pakistan's image, its time the state intervenes.
 
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Can I intervene in the discussion despite my lack of knowledge ?

Everyone is talking about Police, SSG, Army, and who should do what to fight terrorists.

My humble point of view is :

1) Police, or any civilian forces couldn’t have taken on terrorists like Army did in the western parts of the country. This a fact nobody can deny if I’m not mistaken in my analysis.

One question comes to my mind ? Why only Army would have been (and it is without doubt) the only organisation which could have done it ?

I don’t have definitive answers but maybe because the nature of the grounds and the ressources required against such large groups if terrorists?
Knowing capabilities of our Polices Forces (I mean civilians Forces), we can say safely or presume it that they weren’t able to do the job. But I’m sure that in any other country no civilians forces could have successfully do the job. Military ressources were truly needed.

They weren’t facing few dakkoos or mafia styles organisations.

They were facing militants who where trained since years if not decades in guérilla tactics.

It was a a true war like situation.

Therefore Army and SSG were correctly tasked no doubt.

And if we remember, it was very sad but the losses were very high in the beginning. But then with the capabilities of learning and developing new tactics they reduced losses and became more efficient.


2) Now coming to the civilian forces :
Nobody can deny that we need to reform these forces. But when specifically speaking about terrorism, nowhere in the world « normal » police could take on them. I never say any normal policemen taking on them. Perhaps few heroic actions here and there. But nothing more from « normal » Police forces. And I hope that nobody here is asking « normal » policemen to take on the terrorists.

But who could take on the terrorists ?
As some few people have already said, this task is of very specialised « Police » Forces. A kind of supermen. Yes I said supermen ! And I’m not jocking.

I will talk about France as an example because I know how they work here. And they are known to be one if the best in the world if not The Best.

We had several different groups of those specialised policemen until 3-4 years ago. They had their own way of training, etc but now they are coordinating and maybe harmonising it.

I think they all are not more than few hundreds. But they have centres situated in one hour of reach from any big cities.
Yes I agree that geography of France help a lot here.

How they work ? Each time there is a call from « normal » police because situation is not normal, the nearest team take off immediately (they have all the time team on standby) and reach the spot as quickly possible. Then they took over the operation.

Who are those guys ? How they train ?
Those guys are all volunteers but they go trough a strict and very selective recruiting process. Everything is checked : mentally, physically, maturity etc

And when selected, they have a very severe training but still they can be eliminated. Their training could be as the one special forces. That’s why SSG were and are successful in Pakistan. But the difference is that in France those special polices forces are not reporting to the defence minister but to the interior minister.
I heard each group fire over million real bulles each year. During training. They have training centre where they have reproduced most of the civilian environment they could have to go if I’m not mistaken ( train, airplane, store, house, building etc. And I think that could be what is doing the SSG Moussa company if my memory doesn’t fail me.

What is better between having civilian specialised police force and a military special force who could help civilians when needed ?

I would say that having a civilian specialised police force is better. Because it will be able to tackle terrorism situation but also hostage situation where husband go mad and take here wife as hostage and could kill here etc. It works perfectly in France. So if tomorrow someone kidnap me, these men will intervene and save me, but these men also neutralised terrorists who attacked France few years ago.

But is Pakistan same as France ? The answer is obviously NO.

In Pakistan police is politicised, full of jahils fat corrupt people ( yes I’m over generalising) but you won’t deny it that this is sad state of our police.
So who and how will those supermen will be selected, trained etc ? Wouldn’t they turn out to be pawn in the corrupt system we have ?

So knowing the DNA, or the mindset of our police, it is better to keep SSG doing the job until our Society in general grow up in honesty and maturity. Because those supermen could become more dangerous than terrorists themselves if they turn wrong.

I understand very well @Zarvan position and I hope we could implement what he said but we cannot for the moment unfortunately.
 
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