Army and the people

[fatman17]

Army and the people

Saturday, September 19, 2009

I have over 45 years of association with Pakistan and still visit it off and on, despite all its recent troubles, and am visiting the country now to catch up with old friends and memories. One thing which has saddened me deeply, during this visit, and which is reflected in your pages everyday, is the drastic change in the relationship between the Pakistani people and their armed forces. There was a time when the Pakistan army was viewed as saviour, a helper, and its officers were looked up to by all sections of society and they were fine officers, too, real officers and gentlemen, with tremendous refinement and polish and in the true tradition of the old British Indian army, which they replaced after Independence with so much aplomb.

But all this seems to have changed -- objectively speaking, I saw a marked change this time I came here. People, sizeable majority of these, are full of anger and even hatred for the army, especially its officers. They blame many of the country's present ills on this cadre and see them as arrogant usurpers even while supporting the government's campaign against terrorism and admitting that the army 'seems serious' in getting rid of these elements this time round.

I visited a number of places on this visit and, shockingly, I personally witnessed two incidents that left me deeply distressed. In Pindi, I saw an army officer slapping a police constable on the road, near Chandni Chowk, for stopping him for some minor traffic violation. How can this happen so brazenly, so carelessly, I wonder? How can someone be above the law of the land? I could never imagine a British army officer slapping a London policeman like that. The 'bobby' represents the day-to-day face of the law and everyone is subject to it, finally.

Secondly, I witnessed a scene in Abbottabad, where a young army officer, a captain or major, had a street scene with a senior local resident of this old and historical cantonment town. The officer had forcibly parked his vehicle right in front of this gentleman's gate and when he was asked to remove it, despite being very obviously in the wrong, he began to argue and was extremely rude and unapologetic. For God's sake, what is the poor country coming to? I have been and continue to be a friend of Pakistan and Pakistanis but it is a sad day indeed when officers of the armed forces vaunt their authority and privileges, and bully the civilian population. And mark my words, this attitude or course can only lead to disaster.

As I leave these shores, I would like to please appeal vehemently and urgently to the topmost command of the Pakistan army: please, try to change your image amongst your own fellow countrymen; please bring back the old-style army, with its officers who were also gentlemen and noted for their chivalry and courtesy; please, do not forget that an army 'without a country' is nothing. I hope that my words of sincere advice will not be taken amiss. Pakistan Zindabad.

Phil Mason

(Concluding my visit to Pakistan)

Newcastle-upon-Tyne, UK

sad reflection on the "black sheep" within the army!

 

[Silent observer]

lovely post fatman17

i truely agree with the opinion of the writer of this article, army need to change this image of taking over its own country. although COAS gen kiyani has taken some good steps (bringing the army officers back from the civil posts etc) in order to restore the army image but i think it need more consistency and time.

regards

sincerely

 

[vsdoc]

Why is the army so all powerful in Pakistan?

You are a democratic country now.

What is it in your governing structure or constitution or socio-political structure that allows the army to keep coming back into power in terms of running the country?

I would really honestly like to know and am not baiting or being condescending.

What do Pakistanis actually want in terms of leadership for their country?

Cheers, Doc

 

[Silent observer]

Why is the army so all powerful in Pakistan?

You are a democratic country now.

What is it in your governing structure or constitution or socio-political structure that allows the army to keep coming back into power in terms of running the country?

I would really honestly like to know and am not baiting or being condescending.

What do Pakistanis actually want in terms of leadership for their country?

Cheers, Doc

vsdoc, that is a very difficult question to answer. i will try to to explain to you what are the reasons.

firstly, yes we are a democratic country now

second, the constitution of pakistan does not allow the army to come in power at all.

thirdly, why army keeps on coming back? there in not one but couple of reasons and that are:

1. we were not able to get an honest leader who has the support from all the provinces since the death of mohammad ali jinnah.

2. democratic govts usually make alliances with other parties to be able to make their govt in the provincial as well as national assemblies. for example, take this govt for an instant, they have majority in sindh and national asssembly only (on their own), they are making govt in baluchistan, NWFP province with their allies and punjab is under the control of opposition. so decision making and implementation become difficult. these kind of alliances are never dependable.

3. hunger for the premier slot and assembly seats. all the politicians they can be bought and sold at certain prices as every where in the world (so when they see that the govt is not popular any morethey turn their backs and start supporting opposition so that they can get the seats in the next elections.

4. now your question will be why these people get elected every time,the answer is high illeteracy rates, feudal system, peers etc. there are many feudal lords, peers who are in this business since long (family seats). i mean the people working for them will vote for them or for whom ever tey will ask for, so who ever can win must have their support. they do not allow developments into their regions (no schools etc) to keep the people s living standards as it is, because if the standard of living is raised there than they wont be able to get these votes.

5. corruption, this kind of senario lead to huge corruptions. if i want to be elected i need from a certain place the support of a feudal lord and definitely in return he will ask many favours from me there and after i get elected. i hope you understand my point.

6. why army can easily come and topple the civil govt, the answer is frustration. i mean, wen these kind of corruptions go out of limit people they get fed up with the govt and when the army takes in (either on their own will or due to any problems they face from the polical govt or due to any deals with the politicians etc) there is no retaliation from the people (civil side). politicians can not stand up and face army because they are all corrupt themselves (earning money underhand during their tenure) and definitely they will not want these scandels to reach the public (their political future will end).

7. why army stay for longer periods without trouble. there are couple of reasons for that. firstly, the army general is far more educated and well behaved with the traits of leadership taught to them by the military. secondly they try to restore the country and are far less corrupt than their civil counter parts so no objection. thirdly, the corruption will decrease as cmpared to civil govt because now one person (on the basis of how much he want) is eating the country instead of the whole lot. fourthly, sincetey are not politicians and their mind works is differently, they styart different projects specially related to defence and otherwise as well and this once again is like by the people so no objection.

8. now yo will ask if they are so good why not them always, the answer is the dictatorship has its pro and cons. pros i have mentioned above but cons (like all thepower with one, defamation of army due to controlling civil organisations by army,etc) when start having their effects on their image, people start turning against them and politicians are waiting for this moment. so with the support of people same old politicians make them to leave the country leadership to the politicians who make their paws ready once again to grab their shares (underhand incomes 1%,5% or 10%).

this is the easy summary of what happen in pakistan politics and may be i have missed many othert points and reasons.

i am not in favor of dictatorship or army toppling the govt and was just trying to give you the picture of complex political/army takingover pakistan situation. but off course i am more against our civil leaders than the army leaders (both are doing bad to the country so the one doing less damage is better).

in my opinion, from the above system problems the following things are needed for the change in this political instability in pakistan:

firstly, lastly and most importantly deficency of a true and honest leader for pakistan who can with the support of people

a. end feudal lord systems
b. raise the education standards everywhere in the country
c. end the corruption envoirnment which is prevalent all across the country (since when the top is Mr. 10% then the bottom should be like Mr. 0.001%, isnt it?)

i hope this answers your question. i think in india you also have this kind of political problem i mean making of alliances (political horse trading) to make the govt and stuff but in a much lesser extent than in pakistan and moreover the good thing is indian army do not interfere in the politics.

i hope we can get a true honest leader who with the support of people can bring end to the mess in pakistan soon.

regards

sincerely

 

[sergente rehan]

I think there is a big frustration also among Army ranks (they are also persons like us), in these last years the Armed forces image has been severely damaged sometime by our own politicians for their sake and some time by anti-Pakistan forces. We must keep in mind one thing that Army have rules and regulation and an image which a normal politicians dosen't have (and will never have in the future) so when we see something negative done by Army everybody notice it immediatly and condem it, waves of anger rises among the people mostly bcz of the several operations brought out by Army in diffrent regions of Pakistan but gradually people are taking under serious consideration the threats posed by these TTP and other terrorists to the state of Pakistan.

Our Armed forces still gains respect among the population, sometime all these negative comments towards the Army may show us a diffrent view but generally Army has restored it's respect among the majority of pakistani people. Gradually Army is leaving all civilian sectors and departments so everything will come back to normality. You can't simply highlight some negative aspects and forget all the good things done by our armed forces...it's always the same Army which is always alert and guard our borders, which gives a big hand to the nation rescuing people during natural and all sort of disasters and restoring the peace in those areas, which is always ready to defend us agaisnt any sort of enemy!

Remind it if there is any war between India and Pakistan every pakistani will give it complete support to our Armed forces bcz we have always had this loving and sometimes confusing sentiments towards the Army but this doesn't means that we didn't respect or hate them!

Long Live our Armed Forces - Long Live Pakistan!
May Allah protect us from all sort of evil enemies, Ameen.

 

[Silent observer]

I think there is a big frustration also among Army ranks (they are also persons like us), in these last years the Armed forces image has been severely damaged sometime by our own politicians for their sake and some time by anti-Pakistan forces. We must keep in mind one thing that Army have rules and regulation and an image which a normal politicians dosen't have (and will never have in the future) so when we see something negative done by Army everybody notice it immediatly and condem it, waves of anger rises among the people mostly bcz of the several operations brought out by Army in diffrent regions of Pakistan but gradually people are taking under serious consideration the threats posed by these TTP and other terrorists to the state of Pakistan.


Remind it if there is any war between India and Pakistan every pakistani will give it complete support to our Armed forces bcz we have always had this loving and sometimes confusing sentiments towards the Army but this doesn't means that we didn't respect or hate them!

sergente rehan

there is a saying that when you love someone more you respect them more and expect more from them but when they do not come up to the expectation the retaliation is more (this is not in the exact quote form in which it is said because i just remmember the meaning of this saying). the point is when people retaliate against the army due to whatever the reason, this dosnt mean that they start hating them, that is because they were not expecting that thing from the one they love, so they react but when the anger is gone and army mend its ways like it is doing now a days by leaving the civil post etc they once again start loving them.

in case of politicians there is a difference than army. you can easily divide the population of pakistan into PML loving or PPP loving or MQM loving etc but in case of army all pakistani population loves them as defenders of our country and this is what army is really meant for (not for conquerring pakistan again and again by toppling the govt but to protect pakistan from the threats to its existence like TTP etc). the COAS right now is doing a great job and trying to restore the image of army but he and next comers must show consistency in their attitude to bring political stability in pakistan.

btw, in case of a war all of us including you and me will be supporting army and the reason is not sentimental attachment to army or respect for the army but infact army and pakistani population will stand with each other because of their love to their homeland (Pakistan) and my friend this is what it is all about.

regrads

sincerely

 

[vsdoc]

Thank you Silent observer for a dummies guide to pakistan politics!

India has had its share of coalition politics too, but I see a big difference in that in general (like the US) there are only 2 real contenders for the slot of "National Paties" and the other "regional players" rally around one of the other depending on strategic interests and the political climate (though there are historical trends and fits in terms of alliances and ideologies there too). They of course can and have had major impact on who comes to power as veritable "King Makers" but by and large when India goes to the polls for the Lok Sabha elections, we vote for the party and not the person (personality) to lead the country.

We the people at such times will look at historical performances and political agendas and are of course to an extent moved by the mood of the nation, the global climate, and what the incumbent government has done over its just finished term, and then decide who best fits the bill to lead the nation. The scene changes significantly when we votes for our local assembly elections, coz there we more often than not look out for No.1 with regard to our immediate local needs. So this is where I see pakistan's system failing in that there are parties representing each "region" with none making the leap to the level of a National party, with members and leaders across regions (like the Congress and the BJP for example).

Is that in essence the problem you guys feel? Its is also my impression that pakistan continues to look at the same people again and again to lead it (personality politics) rather than voting for a party and its ideology/manifesto/road map. So the reins of leadership seem to keep getting passed around between these big wigs only (in turn, cause all fail, and the other in exile jumps in for their turn at rescuing pakistan) and the party they belong to is a mere vessel/front for their personal identity/ambitions. So instead of the leader coming from within the party structure and culture, the party is built and develops around the leader. So once the leader is out/exiled/killed, what then happens to the party? There is a huge hole created, which is quickly filled up by either the army or the next in line opposing equally powerful political leader (personality) or as in today's scenario, the family (not that India is very different in terms of dynastic influences). Basically in other words there is no second line to speak off in terms of the party (as against a political successor).

The other thing I feel is that there is a very strong ON-OFF switch in the mentality of the country as a whole which is reflected in pakistan politics. Black or white only, with no shades of grey. You are either very good and loved, or very bad and are hated (or exiled or killed). So once you are out, you are totally out and have no say in pakistan's politics and decisions related to running the country (as a counter balance to you adversary who is now in power) UP UNTIL you are back in power again. Till that time, you will do everything in your considerable power to upturn the present government and rally the people around you and against the presiding leader either from within Pakistan or outside, so that the presiding leader is more busy saving his backside and surviving for as long as he can rather than actually leading the country and concentrating single mindedly at development. This extremeist culture is I feel also very responsible for there not being a proper opposition worth its name at any time in pakistan's history, which works as an integral arm of the governemnt, rather than a national persona non grata past his/her popularity/integrity/nationalistic sell-by-date.

Can the Judiciary backed up by the FORCE of an APOLITICAL Army and the WILL of the Pakistani people, not do away with the feudal system that most of you seem to be so strongly against? Unless of course the big boys in the army are also feudal landlords. Or is it simplistic to imagine that a Judiciary that can buck the quasi-civilian military Musharaf can also do this of their own volition and no vested interests to "guide" them or prop them up?

Cheers, Doc

 

[Ahmed faraz hussain]

lovely post fatman17

i truely agree with the opinion of the writer of this article, army need to change this image of taking over its own country. although COAS gen kiyani has taken some good steps (bringing the army officers back from the civil posts etc) in order to restore the army image but i think it need more consistency and time.

regards

sincerely

i totally agree......
hes da man ov his words

 

[third eye]

Years of remaining in power & being the " center' of all that happens in Pk I think has left the Army in a condition that they have become too full of themselves..

 

[Silent observer]

Thank you Silent observer for a dummies guide to pakistan politics!

India has had its share of coalition politics too, but I see a big difference in that in general (like the US) there are only 2 real contenders for the slot of "National Paties" and the other "regional players" rally around one of the other depending on strategic interests and the political climate (though there are historical trends and fits in terms of alliances and ideologies there too). They of course can and have had major impact on who comes to power as veritable "King Makers" but by and large when India goes to the polls for the Lok Sabha elections, we vote for the party and not the person (personality) to lead the country.

We the people at such times will look at historical performances and political agendas and are of course to an extent moved by the mood of the nation, the global climate, and what the incumbent government has done over its just finished term, and then decide who best fits the bill to lead the nation. The scene changes significantly when we votes for our local assembly elections, coz there we more often than not look out for No.1 with regard to our immediate local needs. So this is where I see pakistan's system failing in that there are parties representing each "region" with none making the leap to the level of a National party, with members and leaders across regions (like the Congress and the BJP for example).

Is that in essence the problem you guys feel? Its is also my impression that pakistan continues to look at the same people again and again to lead it (personality politics) rather than voting for a party and its ideology/manifesto/road map. So the reins of leadership seem to keep getting passed around between these big wigs only (in turn, cause all fail, and the other in exile jumps in for their turn at rescuing pakistan) and the party they belong to is a mere vessel/front for their personal identity/ambitions. So instead of the leader coming from within the party structure and culture, the party is built and develops around the leader. So once the leader is out/exiled/killed, what then happens to the party? There is a huge hole created, which is quickly filled up by either the army or the next in line opposing equally powerful political leader (personality) or as in today's scenario, the family (not that India is very different in terms of dynastic influences). Basically in other words there is no second line to speak off in terms of the party (as against a political successor).

The other thing I feel is that there is a very strong ON-OFF switch in the mentality of the country as a whole which is reflected in pakistan politics. Black or white only, with no shades of grey. You are either very good and loved, or very bad and are hated (or exiled or killed). So once you are out, you are totally out and have no say in pakistan's politics and decisions related to running the country (as a counter balance to you adversary who is now in power) UP UNTIL you are back in power again. Till that time, you will do everything in your considerable power to upturn the present government and rally the people around you and against the presiding leader either from within Pakistan or outside, so that the presiding leader is more busy saving his backside and surviving for as long as he can rather than actually leading the country and concentrating single mindedly at development. This extremeist culture is I feel also very responsible for there not being a proper opposition worth its name at any time in pakistan's history, which works as an integral arm of the governemnt, rather than a national persona non grata past his/her popularity/integrity/nationalistic sell-by-date.

Can the Judiciary backed up by the FORCE of an APOLITICAL Army and the WILL of the Pakistani people, not do away with the feudal system that most of you seem to be so strongly against? Unless of course the big boys in the army are also feudal landlords. Or is it simplistic to imagine that a Judiciary that can buck the quasi-civilian military Musharaf can also do this of their own volition and no vested interests to "guide" them or prop them up?

Cheers, Doc

vsdoc

thank you for your comments, i appreciate them but i was not at all comparing pakistan political system with india or US or any other country. my reply was purey based on what is happening in pakistan.

yes as in pakistan we also have two large political parties but these parties (PML and PPP) but only strong enough to capture seats in national assembly and one of the provincial assemblies (punjab assembly for PML and sindh for PPP). till now when ever these parties has made government they have done it by political horsetrading with regional parties. when you do not have power in all the four provinces it makes the things difficult for the party making government especially when the opposition parties are always in favour of demolishing the government and becomeing the government themselves.

the politicians in pakistan, they can be thought of like children to get their favourite toy (premier, ministries etc) and in order to get their favourite tor as arly a spossible they even use all the tactics in their hands (hook or by crook) to demolish the government before completeion of its term. this is kind of MACHLI BAZAR when you look at pakistan politics, all about money for them because some of them even know that after this term they wont be winning again. example is sheikh rasheed (remained minister of broadcating, tourism etc in different tenures of PML andalso with musharaf) from rawalpindi. after serving with musharaf he knew that he is not going to win again from the same seat (i have heard this from his own mouth while meeting him face to face), so every one belonging to rawalpindi know that in his last term he was not ding anything good for the development as he had done in the past. he did not win as he has expected (may be he did not compete i am not sure but he is not in the assemblies this time).

the ON/OFF switch with no shades of grey, you are right and feudilism and illeteracy has very strong effect on it as well. otherwise, this exiled and hated ones versus good and loved one politicians is due to their hatered among themselves, example is once again sheikh rasheed (he is very popular politician as a big mouth) and when he was in government he said a lot of bad things about benazir and as soon as she came in power sheikh sahib was sent to bahawalpur jail and he remnained there for more than a year (i do not know exactly how much).

another example is nawaz started building motorway in pakistan which was 4 lanes and some foriegn company was contracted to build it but as soon as PPP came in power they first tried to stop it but when thius multinational huge firm (may be koreans) said that they will built it anyway because stopping it will bring a bad name to their firm then it was accepted to be built as 2 way. this is not the end when nawaz came into power next time he again changed it to 3 lanes 8please do not ask for references because finding them after morethan 10 years wouldnt be easy). so it is not about country for them it is about themselves and their revenges against each other. people of pakistan definitely want another party with huge population support but other than these 2 parties. i am definitely not a supporter of any of the two parties i mentioned above.

then army, when it comes in power due to any reason from within themselves or by any pressure from the political situation etc, they commit a grave mistake and this mistake has cost them defamation within pakistan a smentioned in the article posted above. why they do not get any resistance from anywhere is because they can face problems from either people of the country or politicians supported by the people. people are frustrated due to the same things (huge corruptions and doing nothing for people) happening again and again due to the politicians hunger for money and immaturity. so they do not retaliate and hope for a better tomorrow with some good changes for them. politicians how can they stand against army when they are so full of un disclosed scandles. so what they do is run away (self forced exile) like nawaz has done and then zardari and benazir has done in musharaf s tenure.

last is judicial system with apolitical army and will of pakistani people has done a big job which rather seemed impossible but you forget about backing and support of PPP (Aitezaaz ahsan a huge PPP politician) led rallies of lawyers and nawaz support to the chief justice reinstatment. there was an apolitical army, you are right about it.

the point is what happened afterthat, Chief justice became reinstated and musharaf was ousted, good, but it has given way to feudal lords to come in our assemblies. judiciary can play a very strong role in this whole senario but i think it is not that simple since this kind osituation where judiciary is going against govt can lead to even a bigger mess. moreover, in my opinion, all the institutions should do their own respective jobs instead un just exercising tof heir rights and poking their noses in othe institutions working. this makes a successful and clean working envornment for all the institutions to work.

in this kind of senario, so what can be the solution to all this and answer is again

honest and true political leader who can oust the feudalism, raise the education standard and living standards etc in the poor communities as well as in the whole country off course with the help of pakistani people. i hope that pakistan can find him soon.

regards

sincerely

 

[vsdoc]

Thanks Silent observer.

I do not see any way out for pakistan but the hard grind any infant Democracy needs to grow and mature.

There will rarely be short cuts in the form of a messiah rising from the morass as most of our Pakistani brothers here keep hoping for.

The first and most important step is to ensure Democracy survives for the next 20 years minimum with elections held come what may, like clockwork, every 4 years.

Once the political class go through 5 different terms like this in succession with leadership changing according to people's will based on performance, then the idea will seep through the corruption that to have your shot at corruption, you first need to do something significant for the people.

And through all this the people and the army should resist the temptation for the army to come marching in as the divine saviours. The army should do what its meant to do ..... protect the nation from foreign aggressors.

PPP and PML are not the problem here, or ABC or XYZ, the problem is the system, and the parties and the leadership reflect the system. Change the system first, the parties will follow ..... they will have to.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Silent observer]

Thanks Silent observer.

I do not see any way out for pakistan but the hard grind any infant Democracy needs to grow and mature.

There will rarely be short cuts in the form of a messiah rising from the morass as most of our Pakistani brothers here keep hoping for.

The first and most important step is to ensure Democracy survives for the next 20 years minimum with elections held come what may, like clockwork, every 4 years.

Once the political class go through 5 different terms like this in succession with leadership changing according to people's will based on performance, then the idea will seep through the corruption that to have your shot at corruption, you first need to do something significant for the people.

And through all this the people and the army should resist the temptation for the army to come marching in as the divine saviours. The army should do what its meant to do ..... protect the nation from foreign aggressors.

PPP and PML are not the problem here, or ABC or XYZ, the problem is the system, and the parties and the leadership reflect the system. Change the system first, the parties will follow ..... they will have to.
Cheers, Doc

Vsdoc, thank you for your suggestions and comments, appreciate them. you are absolutely right about changing the system and assemblies completing terms for minimum of 20 years, yes absolutely right but not that easy and simple, i must say.

first the system, how this system can be changed, these corrupt politicians in the assemblies can change it and why they should do it, since after doing it they will be tying their own hands. so it sems very difficult from this aspect.

secondly, assemblies finishing their terms and people recognizing who is who and what is what. it is true and unfortunately in pakistan an elected democartic assembly without any dictator s support has not finished its term for a long long time and may be if we try to give this a chance may be we will be able to change the minds of people but once again it will (in my opinion) take more than 20 years for the democracy to take its right course because these 2 parties are really strong in pakistan and this is kind of family business for them (one go and leave his seat for his son). the good way with more hope is if any other party can secure large number of seats in the assemblies and make a govt or a good sized opposition and lead the govt by force in the right direction.

due to this senario i mentioned above, i suggested the option of new honest political leader (with his new political party) with support of people and off course without army intusion, i still believe this is the best option for pakistan. off course it looks kind of a vision but time is changing my friend and i hope this vision will take its effects very soon in Pakistan.

regards

 

[vsdoc]

I see your point my friend and recognise that solutions look good on the screen of a computer but may be difficult if not impossible to put into action in the cauldron of real life politics.

But I differ with you on one aspect - and that is the honest saviour coming from the masses or from the present polity. I do not see that happening simply because those vested interests that have pillaged pakistan to date will not let it happen.

A change of this magnitude, obviously with the public behind it, will call for a revolution OR a military coup. The military general leading this would have to belong to Pakistan's version of the landless dalit class (so that he has no vested interest in the status quo and in fact has the motivation for righteous change) AND once the feudal system is abolished and land reforms pushed through (by force if necessary), then starts the job of empowering the poor and sustaining them while they come to grips with their new found freedom as land holders in their own right, no answerable to their zamindars.

Of course, as we see in India there are advantages (purely techno-commercial in nature related to the commerce of agriculture) of larger land holdings versus smaller fragmented ones (which become progressively smaller as they are divided and re-divided amongst successive generations of brothers), but in the long run, a cooperative is a far better system than an all powerful zamindar, but though related thats another topic altogether.

It would be the responsibility of the judiciary to enforce regular elections then as the rule of law, and the police (and initially even the army - completely apolitical - if need be) to ensure that there is no overt or covert continued force / persuasion / intimidation of the newly emancipated poor at the hands of the digruntled and cut down to size feudal overlords during the elections and post them too. In short, first free the people, then empower them, and finally educate them. Pakistan needs to learn that in a Democracy the real central hero is the PEOPLE ..... as against the divine honest saviour/hero most of you keep talking about and praying for.

He will still come, but he will come from amongst the free PEOPLE.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Silent observer]

I see your point my friend and recognise that solutions look good on the screen of a computer but may be difficult if not impossible to put into action in the cauldron of real life politics.

But I differ with you on one aspect - and that is the honest saviour coming from the masses or from the present polity. I do not see that happening simply because those vested interests that have pillaged pakistan to date will not let it happen.

A change of this magnitude, obviously with the public behind it, will call for a revolution OR a military coup. The military general leading this would have to belong to Pakistan's version of the landless dalit class (so that he has no vested interest in the status quo and in fact has the motivation for righteous change) AND once the feudal system is abolished and land reforms pushed through (by force if necessary), then starts the job of empowering the poor and sustaining them while they come to grips with their new found freedom as land holders in their own right, no answerable to their zamindars.

Of course, as we see in India there are advantages (purely techno-commercial in nature related to the commerce of agriculture) of larger land holdings versus smaller fragmented ones (which become progressively smaller as they are divided and re-divided amongst successive generations of brothers), but in the long run, a cooperative is a far better system than an all powerful zamindar, but though related thats another topic altogether.

It would be the responsibility of the judiciary to enforce regular elections then as the rule of law, and the police (and initially even the army - completely apolitical - if need be) to ensure that there is no overt or covert continued force / persuasion / intimidation of the newly emancipated poor at the hands of the digruntled and cut down to size feudal overlords during the elections and post them too. In short, first free the people, then empower them, and finally educate them. Pakistan needs to learn that in a Democracy the real central hero is the PEOPLE ..... as against the divine honest saviour/hero most of you keep talking about and praying for.

He will still come, but he will come from amongst the free PEOPLE.

Cheers, Doc

yes vsdoc, you are right the solution to this senario is difficult to implement but not impossible, and i hope to see this solution implemented soon in pakistan.

the revolution by coming in of masiah is the best solution possible in the political senario of pakistan, i mean there are many possible solutions and one of them (as you have rightly said) is that political govts complete their tenure and people estimate the devotion of their electees and decide accordingly in the next elections and so on and after 20 years or so an evident change can be seen. the solution that i have mentioned (honest and devoted leader with support of people) was kind of abrupt change and rather look difficult/unlikely.

the people are fed up now of both these parties and now starting to understand and looking for a new leader. we have already seen some unexpected changes in the last 2 elections where people had voted and new parties won in elections (MMA is one example, won majority in NWFP). in the next election people voted against them and MMA could not win majority.

another note worthy example is imran khan s party (tahrik-e-insaaf). he enetered politics with a new party from all over pakistan and in first election was not able to win a single seat (not even for himself) but in next election he himself won (from 2 places) and another member get a seat in senate as well. this election, he boycotted due to political reasons (he do not want to take oath under the ammeneded constitution by a dictator). his popularity is rising and he has a full party backing him. so this difficult can be possible, i mean if he can come and get a decent representation in national assembly, may be we can start seeing some changes in the political system.

may be i am wrong with my presumptions and this change can be not as near as i expect it to be but one thing for sure is this kind of change can only come when army stay impolitical.

regards