Arjun the worst tank ever

[PradoTLC]

all these threads of what is worst in India is like something they developed many a times and that too 100 percent with local components and is proven world class in many battles ....
we will be wasting time on such threads by replying ( i wasted some 30 seconds to reply actually)

lets agree with them that everything in India is worst and everything in pakistan is world class..... that will make them happy and give good night sleep.... why fight if you dont want to win an useless argument?

Well the fact does remain your local defense production is ineffective

 

[Khan vilatey]

all these threads of what is worst in India is like something they developed many a times and that too 100 percent with local components and is proven world class in many battles ....
we will be wasting time on such threads by replying ( i wasted some 30 seconds to reply actually)

lets agree with them that everything in India is worst and everything in pakistan is world class..... that will make them happy and give good night sleep.... why fight if you dont want to win an useless argument?

well this was a bit of a click bait but truly 40+ years in development and the result is Arjun...... why, how? Someone should get a bamboo for this failure, but no one will , this is true for dhurv the most crashed helicopter ever, mig 21 and mig -27 production worst record of air Saftey due to lack of spares, tegas absolutely a failed aircraft. All these things were good ideas if implemented within 10 years of inception.

Now they are already outdated. It’s a Baboo log mentality. We have it in Pakistan too a wonderful place called suparco.... we build ballistic missiles but still do not have our own space delivery rockets.

Many Pakistanis lost their lives perfecting these weapons we just stick to them and test them in service till we can improve them. Guess this works

Kv

 

[Joe Shearer]

Similarly Moving a MBT onto mountains is a stupid political stunt.

One step above putting in light tanks. To believe that in that terrain they can actually achieve anything is really to believe in the Great Pumpkin.

remind me how Galvan , Aksai chin and other Chinese territory was recaptured in 2020 by not firing a shot yet still killing 20+ Indian soldiers.

Galwan Valley is part of Aksai Chin, and when you quote the 20+, remember to quote the 35+ not reported by your iron brothers.

Tactics and logistics win wars not political stunts like putting mbts on mountains

kv

Tactics and logistics, not being gullible.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Now they are already outdated. It’s a Baboo log mentality. We have it in Pakistan too a wonderful place called suparco.... we build ballistic missiles but still do not have our own space delivery rockets.

Yes of course. Your expertise in building ballistic missiles, from design to installation, is renowned the world over. Truly a wonderful place. The Great Pumpkin rules and all is well.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Many Pakistanis lost their lives perfecting these weapons we just stick to them and test them in service till we can improve them. Guess this works

Much much better than the 0 loss of the Dhruv or the Tejas in development. Such logic is impeccable. No enemy facing these weapons can fail to pray for it to continue forever. May the Great Pumpkin continue to attract support and veneration.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Well the fact does remain your local defense production is ineffective

Yes, it is. No doubt about that. Those hundreds and thousands of assembled under license tanks don't exist. Nor do the hundreds of aircraft, those kept flying for periods approximately five times more than their rated life.

There is no one involved in defence production in India who denies that there are problems, and there are people here with real life experience to tell the tale, but the kind of fanboy insight demonstrated in some of these posts is laughable. Expertise in these gleaned from a superficial look through YouTube videos isn't a substitute, especially looking through propaganda videos.

In another thread, the unwary reader stumbles into a similar urgent desire on the part of the latest generation of defence experts to instruct the world at large about strategic matters and military history.

Not the best way to maintain the credibility of the contributions; these posts are laughable

About as laughable as the new iconic status of a single aircraft kill on 27th February. Only a complete lack of anything else to show can create such an infantile obsession.

First, it was a guerrilla war launched to acquire territory that succeeded only in parts that were the home territory of the guerrillas.

Then it was a war of aggression, aggression through clandestine groups, and an open attack with armour and donated artillery on border armed police and infantry formations, admitted by every single account from their own side, that failed, and is now projected as a wonderful victory by turning the failure on its head and reporting it as a failure of the attacked country to crush the attackers.

That is the story of a bank robber celebrating his safe get-away, with only the loss of his tools, weapons and the loot, and exulting in the ineptitude of the policeman who had him in his grip but failed to hold on. We are informed that the ineptitude of the Indian military is demonstrated by its inability to go beyond neutralisation and defence and achieve the total demolition of the aggressors.

Then we have another clandestine campaign that, again, for the third time, failed, and that is now celebrated as the triumph of the campaigners in a very odd achievement; an achievement in deflecting operational failure and at converting it into the failure of their political leadership to negotiate that defeat into victory. Here is the bank robber blaming his failure and mere detention, without tools, weapons or swag, into the failure of the lawyer who came to the station to bail him out; by some mysterious alchemy, the bank loot would have wafted home, complete with weapons and tools lost in the raid, if only the lawyer had known his job.

And so we come to the Great Pumpkin and the 27th of February.

The real idiots stand revealed in their stupidity. The real idiots are those who know better but indulge the followers of these mythical stories by engaging with them. The real idiots - we - need to do some introspection. Why do they - we - match the obsession of the idiots who celebrate a single aircraft loss with their own obsession with bringing logic and reality into the YouTube parlour not very cleverly disguised as a defence thread? It isn't going to happen. We need to apologise to ourselves. Two wrongs don't make a right. Two obsessions don't add up to a rational discussion.

 

[NAVDEEP DHALIWAL]

Both the Armored regiment and Assault Engineers have survey parties, who go through in-depth analysis of the terrain before the tanks are allowed to run all over that terrain. This is done not only to analyse probable mine fields but also locate strategic points and identify obstacles as no-go zone for Tanks.

It depends upon the Commander, or situation of war which decides tanks will go or not. Others can only give there expert opinion. Remember the india/ pak tank battle in which pak tanks got destroyed cause of going into marshy lands and got stuck.
Generals or some times heat of battle makes 1 do stupid or daring( if successful ) moves.

 

[Nilgiri]

On the other hand Type 15 is rated at a massive 60% gradient. 60% is just mind bending number even in specialised purpose built offroad jeep / SUV clubs.

I find this number extremely difficult to believe. It is probably not tractable in the sense we use for the T-90 number you give...but may be a theoretical "no slip" max on the test range ramp. Looking at Type 15, the CoG also seems fairly low to aid this.

In a passing convo, an ex abrams tanker told me about all kind of real world limitations to what the abrams stated specs are on paper from the test range its qualified on after production.

These are all presented to the actual crews for training and then deployment...prioritised even by likeliest matrix intersection of conditions...it has taken decades of field experience to acquire.

 

[Signalian]

This is perfectly valid for set-piece battles. Two things; once one has committed tanks to a theatre, there is not much choice left. The tanks are there, and a survey party coming back to say that the terrain is entirely unpassable is simply irrelevant. That decision will have to be taken long before.

These pictures will illustrate the point. Survey parties have an effect on the decision before shipping armoured vehicles out here; not after.

View attachment 658380

Second, the Chinese will not fight static, set piece battles; they never have. Our experience in Arunachal and in Ladakh in 62 showed clearly that they decide their points of attack, and advance, are decided long before, and surveyed long before. An illustration is their use of the Bailley Trail. They also decide their points of defence, although they have not faced a situation, due to the Indian political leadership's inclination to avoid armed conflict, where they require to take a defensive position on their fronts with India.

The job done by survey party gives the report of the related terrain to the commander so that he has a full view where to deploy the tanks. The options seem limited about the terrain we are talking about, not impossible. There can be areas where tank can play their role and exploit themselves really, that's the role of survey party. its not a yes or no, but where and how. Armoured Brigade Commander or CO of Armoured Regt can then put forward his plans with the Infantry Bde commanders accordingly to mount a combined assault.

Considering Chinese, there will always be an element of surprise. Tank is just one type of weapon for ground forces. Tanks may or may not be used at all, it depends upon how circumstances unfold as the tension continues.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The job done by survey party gives the report of the related terrain to the commander so that he has a full view where to deploy the tanks. The options seem limited about the terrain we are talking about, not impossible.

The point is that there are parts of the region that are plains, parts that are hilly, rocky country. Those parts that are hilly, the fingers on Pangong Tso, for instance, are definitely not tank country. Other parts are.

I agree with your basic point, but am saying that it is a survey party's role only when the terrain has already been determined to be good for tanks, with obstacles that the party has to spot and mark.

 

[Joe Shearer]

its not a yes or no, but where and how. Armoured Brigade Commander or CO of Armoured Regt can then put forward his plans with the Infantry Bde commanders accordingly to mount a combined assault.

If we are in agreement, and I think what you are saying is obvious and correct, then what are we discussing?

 

[HalfMoon]

There is a reason why it is called Arjunk.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Considering Chinese, there will always be an element of surprise. Tank is just one type of weapon for ground forces. Tanks may or may not be used at all, it depends upon how circumstances unfold as the tension continues.

Yes, they have shown that they can be flexible, and yet rigid when the objective needs to be achieved. That is what makes them difficult enemies.

 

[Joe Shearer]

There is a reason why it is called Arjunk.

No, no reason at all, not like some employers who photoshop their weapons in development against the Great Satan.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I find this number extremely difficult to believe. It is probably not tractable in the sense we use for the T-90 number you give...but may be a theoretical "no slip" max on the test range ramp. Looking at Type 15, the CoG also seems fairly low to aid this.

He is normally reliable as to his figures. I am curious to know if he has any thoughts on what you pointed out.