Arjun Special Report

[sigatoka]

HESH rounds have been around for a while and and modern tanks have internal coating that prevents the spalling (which kills crew members) from happening. This means that HESH rounds will be reasonably ineffective against T-80's and Al-Khalid tanks of Pakistan. The rifling of the Arjun when firing other rounds will only lead to a lower velocity of the round which is a disadvantage compared to smooth bore and it results in massive heating of the barrel which is another disadvantage.

So the Arjun in capability is similar (if slightly inferior) to the T-80 and T-90 and Al-Khalid while being massively over budget and late. If im not wrong Al-Khalid have been inducted while Arjun are only now starting to trickle out of the factories.

 

[sigatoka]

One of the negatives of the Arjun was that it required specialized training of western standards to use the fancy gadgets onboard the Arjun. Unlike Russian tanks which are pretty low tech.

What fancy gadget does the Arjun have that T-90's or T-80's dont have or for that matter the Al-Khalid?

And secondly for all the talk of network centric warfare (which the stryker vehicles epitomise) its possible to become overinvested in technology because computerising and linking with networks cost resources that could be used for improving armour, weapons and increasing numbers. Having all the fancy computerised gadgets doesnt prevent a stryker vehicle from being blown apart by an IED similar to the much cheaper previous M-113's.

So my point is, i dispute that T-90's are inferior in "gadget" department to the Arjun, and also even if they are it is not a big deal since the major components if you look at a spec list are all there on the T-90.

 

[vnomad]

HESH rounds have been around for a while and and modern tanks have internal coating that prevents the spalling (which kills crew members) from happening. This means that HESH rounds will be reasonably ineffective against T-80's and Al-Khalid tanks of Pakistan.

The DRDO claim to have come up with a new HESH round that's more lethal or more effective. Since, neither of us can debate the veracity of this point I suggest a truce.

The rifling of the Arjun when firing other rounds will only lead to a lower velocity of the round which is a disadvantage compared to smooth bore and it results in massive heating of the barrel which is another disadvantage.

The Russians according to Jane's are replacing the 125 smooth on newer tanks of their's with a rifled. No idea why though.
The muzzle velocity of the Arjun's main gun is 1650m/s. The best gun around the Rheinmetall L55 (LeopardII and M1A2) has a muzzle speed of 1750m/s+. Not much of a difference.

 

[vnomad]

What fancy gadget does the Arjun have that T-90's or T-80's dont have or for that matter the Al-Khalid?

A touch screen BMS for one. Fires guided missiles. Which means that it would have something fancy in the turret. Has an integrated GPS. And an integrated fire and explosion suppression system superior to that on both the T-80 and T-90. It employes a copy of the Merkava's(who got it from the Abrams) self diagnostic system.

And secondly for all the talk of network centric warfare (which the stryker vehicles epitomise) its possible to become overinvested in technology because computerising and linking with networks cost resources that could be used for improving armour, weapons and increasing numbers. Having all the fancy computerised gadgets doesnt prevent a stryker vehicle from being blown apart by an IED similar to the much cheaper previous M-113's.

According to an Israeli guy who worked on the Arjun it has electronics derived from the Merkava 4 to detect mines. Anyway I never said the Arjun was invincible. Neither is the AK.

So my point is, i dispute that T-90's are inferior in "gadget" department to the Arjun, and also even if they are it is not a big deal since the major components if you look at a spec list are all there on the T-90.

The Arjun has a main gun and armor both superior to those on the T-90.

 

[MIG_ACE]

Ook! This can go on forever. If anyone here is also a member of PDF plz invite "zraver" here.He is an ex-US army tanker and would be able to clear all your doubts.
Otherwise give me permission to copy-paste his posts from another forum over here.

 

[Contrarian]

called him, sent a PM on PDF. Hope he comes here.

 

[zraver]

Guns,

125mm Guns will not perform at the same levle as 120mm guns. The 2A46 pattern autoloading 125mm smoothbore sues 2 piece ammuntion that both reduces the penetrators overall weight by more than 25% and it's overall leangth by aboutthe same amount. maximum penetration for a 125mm is about 600mm RHAe (russian claims) and evne this si suspect becyuase thier way thier asign RHA values is artifically high (see the claimed performance of the RPG-29 vs the T-90 and the RPG-29's failure to penetrate the merkava from the front. The numbers do not match up)

meanwhile western pattern 120mmAPFSDS like the DM-63 (non-DU) can bust 800mm RHAe with ease.

The world record for direct fire is held by a 120mm rifled canon fitted to a Challanger 1 at over 5km.

A comparison will show that the 125mm fires a lighter projectile at the same speeds as the 120mm's heavier round beucase the 2 peice ammo system also reduces the amount of propellant.

Cross country speed,

The AK uses a non return roller christie style torsion bar system. The Arjun uses a pnuematic system. The ride in the arjun will be signifigantly easier on the crew and the smoother the ride the wider the speed range in which the FCS will work. The AK will be lucky to achieve 25kmph fire on the move across rough terrain, and the Arjun can expect 40kmph or better.

crew comfort,

the cramped vibrating interior of the AK along with threemen having to do four mens worth of work will leave AK crews fatigued far sooner than the Arjuns roomier more comfratable ride. This was not a problem for the USSR who would use echelon tactics so crews were not overworked. Since pakistan and india have near equal numbers of tanks both sides T series and T type tanks will seriously degrade crew performace, but the InA's Arjun fleet will remain fresh for far longer periods.

Protection,

The AK has no side protection vs infantry fired anti-tank weapons, and it's composite armor is poorly shaped and leaves large gaps that are more easily exploited. Also the newest Chinese ATGM rounds are still 2 generations behind the west and Russia and thier performance as a way to tes tthe composites is doubtful. The Arjun's "gold" cermaic armor is considered world class and no 125mm round or any HEAT round has yet proven the ability to penetrate such armors from the front.

All the merkavs lost were side hits so as long as the InA guards the Arjuns flanks it is all but unstoppable from the front. There is not a single weapon currently in the PA inventory I would trust to take out an Arjun( Unless of course the PA gets the javelin anti-tank missile with pop up attack.)

the Arjun also has bustlerack storage with blow out panels, while the AK uses the very dangeorus and explosive casset style system ie flying frying pans of Gulf War 1 fame.

I have already been over this subject so often on so many different forums its not even funny, check the landwarfare thread on this very forum, Sinodefence forum, PDF, WAB and BRF. The AK is a medium tank built around a 40 year old hull and gun with a few new bells and whistles thrown on. As t series tanks go it is probalby an equal partner with the T-80/90 type tanks, but cannot be favorably comapred to an MBT which has a better gun, signifigantly better protection, and a more rested crew.

If Pakistan wants an asnwer for the Arjun, get the ZTZ-98G (120mm 4 man crew version of the ZTZ-98)

 

[Goodperson]

Excellent post zraver.

 

[EagleEyes]

If Pakistan wants an asnwer for the Arjun, get the ZTZ-98G (120mm 4 man crew version of the ZTZ-98)

Why would Pakistan want an answer for a failed tank who is not even going to make into the army?

We have better threats to face.

 

[Goodperson]

Why would Pakistan want an answer for a failed tank who is not even going to make into the army?

We have better threats to face.

Arjun had failed some tests in earlier trials but AFAIK trials in 2006 were success.
Indian Army is inducting 124 Numbers of Arjun now given the production rates.

 

[Contrarian]

Why would Pakistan want an answer for a failed tank who is not even going to make into the army?

We have better threats to face.

Pakistan would WANT to counter THIS tank, its not failed, it had initial problems, its now being inducted. The logistical problems regarding its transportation etc are also being sorted, Webby dont dismiss this tank, its the best in the Indian Subcontinent. The only drawback is our infrastrucutre and training of crew does not support this tank from being extensively used, however this is being rectified.

The tank is already being inducted now. And for all you know, this tank maybe used in small numbers to lead a force of T-90's. To protect them from up front and lead an assault. So this is indede a very capable platform.

 

[Keysersoze]

Guns,

125mm Guns will not perform at the same levle as 120mm guns. The 2A46 pattern autoloading 125mm smoothbore sues 2 piece ammuntion that both reduces the penetrators overall weight by more than 25% and it's overall leangth by aboutthe same amount. maximum penetration for a 125mm is about 600mm RHAe (russian claims) and evne this si suspect becyuase thier way thier asign RHA values is artifically high (see the claimed performance of the RPG-29 vs the T-90 and the RPG-29's failure to penetrate the merkava from the front. The numbers do not match up)

meanwhile western pattern 120mmAPFSDS like the DM-63 (non-DU) can bust 800mm RHAe with ease.

The world record for direct fire is held by a 120mm rifled canon fitted to a Challanger 1 at over 5km.

A comparison will show that the 125mm fires a lighter projectile at the same speeds as the 120mm's heavier round beucase the 2 peice ammo system also reduces the amount of propellant.

Cross country speed,

The AK uses a non return roller christie style torsion bar system. The Arjun uses a pnuematic system. The ride in the arjun will be signifigantly easier on the crew and the smoother the ride the wider the speed range in which the FCS will work. The AK will be lucky to achieve 25kmph fire on the move across rough terrain, and the Arjun can expect 40kmph or better.

crew comfort,

the cramped vibrating interior of the AK along with threemen having to do four mens worth of work will leave AK crews fatigued far sooner than the Arjuns roomier more comfratable ride. This was not a problem for the USSR who would use echelon tactics so crews were not overworked. Since pakistan and india have near equal numbers of tanks both sides T series and T type tanks will seriously degrade crew performace, but the InA's Arjun fleet will remain fresh for far longer periods.

Protection,

The AK has no side protection vs infantry fired anti-tank weapons, and it's composite armor is poorly shaped and leaves large gaps that are more easily exploited. Also the newest Chinese ATGM rounds are still 2 generations behind the west and Russia and thier performance as a way to tes tthe composites is doubtful. The Arjun's "gold" cermaic armor is considered world class and no 125mm round or any HEAT round has yet proven the ability to penetrate such armors from the front.

All the merkavs lost were side hits so as long as the InA guards the Arjuns flanks it is all but unstoppable from the front. There is not a single weapon currently in the PA inventory I would trust to take out an Arjun( Unless of course the PA gets the javelin anti-tank missile with pop up attack.)

the Arjun also has bustlerack storage with blow out panels, while the AK uses the very dangeorus and explosive casset style system ie flying frying pans of Gulf War 1 fame.

I have already been over this subject so often on so many different forums its not even funny, check the landwarfare thread on this very forum, Sinodefence forum, PDF, WAB and BRF. The AK is a medium tank built around a 40 year old hull and gun with a few new bells and whistles thrown on. As t series tanks go it is probalby an equal partner with the T-80/90 type tanks, but cannot be favorably comapred to an MBT which has a better gun, signifigantly better protection, and a more rested crew.

If Pakistan wants an asnwer for the Arjun, get the ZTZ-98G (120mm 4 man crew version of the ZTZ-98)

You have broken down the pro's of the Arjun admirably sir and I thank you for it. However.........Regardless of the ability of the Al Khalid...the question is the following....(and you will forgive me if i am covering old ground as i am not a member of the other forums)If the system was as capable as stated...Why has the IA not fallen over itself to aquire said tank in many hundreds? Also as I am sure many of us are all aware....having the finest ingredients doesn't make you a world class chef...It has yet to be seen whether the systems all integrate successfully. Having a gun with punch is useless if the targeting systems are out of wack.......etc etc.
Also I am assuming the AK2 will be developed to counter any threat that the Arjun will pose.

 

[zraver]

three different one word answers, COST, the Arjun costs more than an M1A2. DOCTRINE, Indian Army doctrine is built around a T rank doctrine. This involves over concentration of force (for MBTs) and a on the cheap training model. With an MBT you need very technical well trained and drilled crews who can operate agaisnt numerically superior foes and win. This is another added cost the Indian army has to absorb. STUPIDITY, certain indian officers and politicians think the next war will be like the last, this is called the victors disease and is very common. What they had wonthe last war so it should win the next war, a logial fallacy.

For these three reasons the Indian Army has held off on mass induction, these reason however do not subtract form the Arjuns battlefeild viablity. The altest feild tests showed the various components were finally working in sync.

I am guesisng the AK II will be a ZTZ 99 copy, a vast improvement over the AK but still handicapped by a autoloading 125mm L/48 gun firing a 560mm long penetrator. If Pakistan wanted a real MBT they would use either the Type 98G- it uses a Norinco 120mm smoothbore capable of firing NATO ammuntion. or licence build M1A1 or A2 Abrams.

But both these tanks would require the same shift in policy and doctrine and increased cost the Indian army is facing.

of course the best solution is for both Pakistan and India ot sit down and resolve your differance like peaceable people, stop bombing each other and re-direct all that easted treasure into the economy, health care and educational systems of your nations.

 

[vnomad]

three different one word answers, COST, the Arjun costs more than an M1A2.

Does it? The Arjun officially costs $3.8 million a piece. The M1A2 comes for about $5.6 million I think.

of course the best solution is for both Pakistan and India ot sit down and resolve your differance like peaceable people, stop bombing each other and re-direct all that easted treasure into the economy, health care and educational systems of your nations.

There is a certain Kashmir dispute which is a hindrance. No other problem.

 

[Awesome]

Guns,

125mm Guns will not perform at the same levle as 120mm guns. The 2A46 pattern autoloading 125mm smoothbore sues 2 piece ammuntion that both reduces the penetrators overall weight by more than 25% and it's overall leangth by aboutthe same amount. maximum penetration for a 125mm is about 600mm RHAe (russian claims) and evne this si suspect becyuase thier way thier asign RHA values is artifically high (see the claimed performance of the RPG-29 vs the T-90 and the RPG-29's failure to penetrate the merkava from the front. The numbers do not match up)

meanwhile western pattern 120mmAPFSDS like the DM-63 (non-DU) can bust 800mm RHAe with ease.

The world record for direct fire is held by a 120mm rifled canon fitted to a Challanger 1 at over 5km.

A comparison will show that the 125mm fires a lighter projectile at the same speeds as the 120mm's heavier round beucase the 2 peice ammo system also reduces the amount of propellant.

Cross country speed,

The AK uses a non return roller christie style torsion bar system. The Arjun uses a pnuematic system. The ride in the arjun will be signifigantly easier on the crew and the smoother the ride the wider the speed range in which the FCS will work. The AK will be lucky to achieve 25kmph fire on the move across rough terrain, and the Arjun can expect 40kmph or better.

crew comfort,

the cramped vibrating interior of the AK along with threemen having to do four mens worth of work will leave AK crews fatigued far sooner than the Arjuns roomier more comfratable ride. This was not a problem for the USSR who would use echelon tactics so crews were not overworked. Since pakistan and india have near equal numbers of tanks both sides T series and T type tanks will seriously degrade crew performace, but the InA's Arjun fleet will remain fresh for far longer periods.

Protection,

The AK has no side protection vs infantry fired anti-tank weapons, and it's composite armor is poorly shaped and leaves large gaps that are more easily exploited. Also the newest Chinese ATGM rounds are still 2 generations behind the west and Russia and thier performance as a way to tes tthe composites is doubtful. The Arjun's "gold" cermaic armor is considered world class and no 125mm round or any HEAT round has yet proven the ability to penetrate such armors from the front.

All the merkavs lost were side hits so as long as the InA guards the Arjuns flanks it is all but unstoppable from the front. There is not a single weapon currently in the PA inventory I would trust to take out an Arjun( Unless of course the PA gets the javelin anti-tank missile with pop up attack.)

the Arjun also has bustlerack storage with blow out panels, while the AK uses the very dangeorus and explosive casset style system ie flying frying pans of Gulf War 1 fame.

I have already been over this subject so often on so many different forums its not even funny, check the landwarfare thread on this very forum, Sinodefence forum, PDF, WAB and BRF. The AK is a medium tank built around a 40 year old hull and gun with a few new bells and whistles thrown on. As t series tanks go it is probalby an equal partner with the T-80/90 type tanks, but cannot be favorably comapred to an MBT which has a better gun, signifigantly better protection, and a more rested crew.

If Pakistan wants an asnwer for the Arjun, get the ZTZ-98G (120mm 4 man crew version of the ZTZ-98)

That was informative. Removes many preconceptions.