Arjun News & Discussions

[desisoldier]

DRDO is fully capable of producing the Arjun, just that time is our worst enemy and of our concern.

 

[pop_alsa]

DRDO is fully capable of producing the Arjun, just that time is our worst enemy and of our concern.

And who delays funding,sanctions to DRDO projects? Who change requirements constantly to disrupt project timelines and then blame it on DRDO?

Even Intel chip design programmes slip through years on deadlines, that doesn't mean they kill the R&D programmes and import it from AMD. Rather, they support their teams & fund it more to speed up progress of projects.

"Import" lover Armed forces(Army,IAF specially) and corrupt MoD are our worst enemies.

Why we pay just 3 billion$ over last 20 years to LCA project, because we don't have money and then cry when it face delays due to lack of enough resources to parallelize processes?

And 15Billion$ for 125 imported planes over 10 years?

Why a pony for budget DRDO and expect "world-class" output from them?

 

[pop_alsa]

Because till a few years back, DRDO/HAL were confident that they can do it all, on their own. It hit them pretty late, that they are inexperienced, and could take external help. This was all the problem for not inducting LCA. Cannot blame them for this though.

Wrong.

For 30 years, MoD and Armed forces were living "easy-life" and in comforts of Vodka and they always refused to fund domestic R&D and asked HAL to close their aircraft R&D division in 1960s and HAL had to close it because India refused to fund it and preferred imports from foreign.

When their "import" heaven SovietUnion broke, they suddenly felt a bomb exploded under their as$es and they realized - "oh ****! now, we can't rely on Russian imports. Oh Godd!! HAL, you morons do something, quick !! Build a world-class 4th Generation fighter for me in 5 years, I am dying !!"

And, then they started funding LCA in 1989.

Those morons who refused to fund even a nutbolt in Aviation sector in India for 30 years because they were happy with "Russian" imports, are now accusing HAL,DRDO of "delays" in domestic programmes! wow! A thief is accusing the saints.

And using these delays as an excuse, today they are taking the country to another imports heaven of "Israel and US".

We are moving from being dustbin of Russia towards dustbin of US & Israel.

China on other hand, fortunately doesn't have such corrupt morons making policies in Beijing. They cleverly bargained hard when importing from Russia and focused on learning from Russian technology and building home R&D base.

While on other hand, India never focused on funding big R&D projects at home. LCA project always suffered for funds. It got a shitty low 3Billion$ over 20 years. Compare this to how much China invested in their domestic military-industrial Complex.

India focused on just "imports" and blaming china of pirating Russian technology. Truth was that Indian policymakers were happy with Commissions/bribes from foreign weapons companies and were happy in comfort zone, like typical Indian administrators who hates taking tough decisions. And it was too late when they realized that china has outsmarted them in aviation R&D.

 

[pop_alsa]

It doesn't take brains to import weapons from other countries. What requires brain is making your own because it takes guts and decades long efforts to build the base, and improve upon it.

India clearly lacked any focus on domestic R&D due to its dependence imports from Soviet. It neglected and starved the domestic programmes for 35 years under "Soviet Import" era.

Now, India is entering into another blunder of relying on Israeli and US technology rather than diverting funds in serious manner to domestic programmes. We have entered "Western Import" era now.

 

[sancho]

Oh yeah, I forgot that!
But you also forgot Germans were experienced tank makers. Leopard 1 was one of the best. While Arjun was just a first attempt. So if German believed that they can evolve L2 afterwards while Indian army placed doubts, nothing wrong with that.

As I said, it's not only the point for Germany, or for those tanks, it's a normal evolution all over the world and I don't see a problem four the nations security if we have still so many Russian tanks in service and order maybe 300 not fully perfect Arjun MK1.
My intention is also not Arjun for T90 (because I also see both in different classes) but imo IA takes a share on the slow evolution/improvement of Arjun too, just as IAF in LCA.

About tejas, its indigenous radar was not up to the mark. And DRDO was insistent that they can make it. So it wasn't worth inducting till foreign components like radar, ew suite etc were purchased. After the purchase, IAF has agreed on the induction.

That's what I said, IAF wanted the full capabilities, but these wasn't necessarily needed to replace older Mig 21 in service right? Most of them are pure interceptors with out BVR, or multi role capabilities, so even a limited LCA should be able to replace that capabilities.

Because till a few years back, DRDO/HAL were confident that they can do it all, on their own. It hit them pretty late, that they are inexperienced, and could take external help. This was all the problem for not inducting LCA. Cannot blame them for this though.

Again, that's what I said, they overestimated their capabilities and must be blamed for it of course. This kind of delays and failures on key techs are not acceptable!

It was clearly the right decision to go for indigenous developed Arjun and LCA, but we did a lot of mistakes and now we have to fix the problems and get both projects done. But I'm afraid that both will only be delayed more and more.

 

[sancho]

It doesn't take brains to import weapons from other countries. What requires brain is making your own because it takes guts and decades long efforts to build the base, and improve upon it.

India clearly lacked any focus on domestic R&D due to its dependence imports from Soviet. It neglected and starved the domestic programmes for 35 years under "Soviet Import" era.

Now, India is entering into another blunder of relying on Israeli and US technology rather than diverting funds in serious manner to domestic programmes. We have entered "Western Import" era now.

If it would be like in the past, we would simply buy foreign arms, but that is not the case anymore! We buy mainly those things that we can't develop on our own and are going for more and more co-developments besides that. This will help us to improve much more, then simply invest in indigenous developments and wait till our industry reach the level that the others have since years.
We don't have the limitations like China has in terms of coops with foreign nations, so we don't have to develop anything on our own, but use this as an advantage and multiple the benefit.

 

[saurabh]

As I said, it's not only the point for Germany, or for those tanks, it's a normal evolution all over the world and I don't see a problem four the nations security if we have still so many Russian tanks in service and order maybe 300 not fully perfect Arjun MK1.

My intention is also not Arjun for T90 (because I also see both in different classes) but imo IA takes a share on the slow evolution/improvement of Arjun too, just as IAF in LCA.

Now when I think about that, may be you are right. Even it would have been better that instead of inducting, Army/IAF would have taken active participation in development.

That's what I said, IAF wanted the full capabilities, but these wasn't necessarily needed to replace older Mig 21 in service right? Most of them are pure interceptors with out BVR, or multi role capabilities, so even a limited LCA should be able to replace that capabilities.

AFAIK LCA wasn't in condition to be inducted, not even in a limited role. Its radar was really off the mark, too much. Though this I got as hearsay only.

Again, that's what I said, they overestimated their capabilities and must be blamed for it of course. This kind of delays and failures on key techs are not acceptable!

Its not so easy to say that. They looked at the tech and thought that they could do it. I can say this from personal experience that sometimes a simple tech is hard to reproduce, while with a little help, you can do lot of advancements. It was something new and only after working on it did they understood the complexity.

It was clearly the right decision to go for indigenous developed Arjun and LCA, but we did a lot of mistakes and now we have to fix the problems and get both projects done. But I'm afraid that both will only be delayed more and more.

Cant disagree, though I expect a little more positive attitude towards LCA from you

 

[ironman]

Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90​

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi March 25, 2010, 0:18 IST

India’s home-built Arjun tank has emerged a conclusive winner from its showdown with the Russian T-90. A week of comparative trials, conducted by the army at the Mahajan Ranges, near Bikaner in Rajasthan, has ended; the results are still officially secret. But, Business Standard has learned from multiple sources who were involved in the trials that the Arjun tank has outperformed the T-90 on every crucial parameter.

The trial pitted one squadron (14 tanks) of Arjuns against an equal number of T-90s. Each squadron was given three tactical tasks; each involved driving across 50 kilometres of desert terrain and then shooting at a set of targets. Each tank had to fire at least 10 rounds, stationary and on the move, with each hit being carefully logged. In total, each tank drove 150 kilometres and fired between 30-50 rounds. The trials also checked the tanks’ ability to drive through a water channel 5-6 feet deep.

The Arjun tanks, the observers all agreed, performed superbly. Whether driving cross-country over rugged sand-dunes; detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets; or accurately hitting targets, both stationery and moving, with pinpoint gunnery; the Arjun demonstrated a clear superiority over the vaunted T-90.

“The Arjun could have performed even better, had it been operated by experienced crewmen”, says an officer who has worked on the Arjun. “As the army’s tank regiments gather experience on the Arjun, they will learn to exploit its capabilities.” With the trial report still being compiled — it is expected to reach Army Headquarters after a fortnight — neither the army, nor the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), which developed the Arjun tank in Chennai at the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), are willing to comment officially about the trials.

The importance of this comparative trial can be gauged from a list of those who attended. Witnessing the Arjun in action were most of the army’s senior tank generals, including the Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj; strike corps commander, Lt Gen Anil Chait; Army Commander South, Lt Gen Pradeep Khanna; and Deputy Chief of the Army Staff, Lt Gen JP Singh. The Director General of Military Operations, Lt Gen AS Sekhon also attended the trials.

Over the last four months, the army had systematically signalled that it did not want to buy more Arjuns. The message from senior officers was — 124 Arjun tanks have been bought already; no more would be ordered for the army’s fleet of 4000 tanks. The comparative trial, or so went the message, was merely to evaluate what operational role could be given to the army’s handful of Arjuns.

“The senior officers who attended the trials were taken aback by the Arjun’s strong performance,” an officer who was present through the trials frankly stated. “But they were also pleased that the Arjun had finally come of age.”

The army’s Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which has bitterly opposed buying more Arjuns, will now find it difficult to sustain that opposition. In keeping out the Arjun, the DGMF has opted to retain the already obsolescent T-72 tank in service for another two decades, spending thousands of crores in upgrading its vintage systems.

Now, confronted with the Arjun’s demonstrated capability, the army will face growing pressure to order more Arjuns.

The current order of 124 Arjuns is equipping the army’s 140 Armoured Brigade in Jaisalmer. With that order almost completed, the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, near Chennai, needs more orders urgently. The Rs 50 crore facility can churn out 50 Arjuns annually. That would allow for the addition of close to one Arjun regiment each year (a regiment is authorised 62 tanks).

Tank experts point out that conducting trials only in Mahajan does not square with the army’s assertion that they are evaluating a role for the Arjun. Says Major General HM Singh, who oversaw the Arjun’s development for decades, “If they were evaluating where the Arjun should be deployed, they should have conducted the trials in different types of terrain: desert, semi-desert, plains and riverine. It seems as if the army has already decided to employ the Arjun in the desert.”

The Arjun’s sterling performance in the desert raises another far-reaching question: should the Arjun — with its proven mobility, firepower and armour protection — be restricted to a defensive role or should it equip the army’s strike corps for performing a tank’s most devastating (and glamorous) role: attacking deep into enemy territory during war? Each strike corps has 8-9 tank regiments. If the army recommends the Arjun for a strike role, that would mean an additional order of about 500 Arjuns.

But Business Standard has learned that senior officers are hesitant to induct the Arjun into strike corps. Sources say the Arjun will be kept out of strike formations on the grounds that it is incompatible with other strike corps equipment, e.g. assault bridges that cannot bear the 60-tonne weight of the Arjun

Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90

 

[Choppers]

Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90​

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi March 25, 2010, 0:18 IST

India’s home-built Arjun tank has emerged a conclusive winner from its showdown with the Russian T-90. A week of comparative trials, conducted by the army at the Mahajan Ranges, near Bikaner in Rajasthan, has ended; the results are still officially secret. But, Business Standard has learned from multiple sources who were involved in the trials that the Arjun tank has outperformed the T-90 on every crucial parameter.

The trial pitted one squadron (14 tanks) of Arjuns against an equal number of T-90s. Each squadron was given three tactical tasks; each involved driving across 50 kilometres of desert terrain and then shooting at a set of targets. Each tank had to fire at least 10 rounds, stationary and on the move, with each hit being carefully logged. In total, each tank drove 150 kilometres and fired between 30-50 rounds. The trials also checked the tanks’ ability to drive through a water channel 5-6 feet deep.

The Arjun tanks, the observers all agreed, performed superbly. Whether driving cross-country over rugged sand-dunes; detecting, observing and quickly engaging targets; or accurately hitting targets, both stationery and moving, with pinpoint gunnery; the Arjun demonstrated a clear superiority over the vaunted T-90.

“The Arjun could have performed even better, had it been operated by experienced crewmen”, says an officer who has worked on the Arjun. “As the army’s tank regiments gather experience on the Arjun, they will learn to exploit its capabilities.” With the trial report still being compiled — it is expected to reach Army Headquarters after a fortnight — neither the army, nor the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO), which developed the Arjun tank in Chennai at the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE), are willing to comment officially about the trials.

The importance of this comparative trial can be gauged from a list of those who attended. Witnessing the Arjun in action were most of the army’s senior tank generals, including the Director General of Mechanised Forces, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj; strike corps commander, Lt Gen Anil Chait; Army Commander South, Lt Gen Pradeep Khanna; and Deputy Chief of the Army Staff, Lt Gen JP Singh. The Director General of Military Operations, Lt Gen AS Sekhon also attended the trials.

Over the last four months, the army had systematically signalled that it did not want to buy more Arjuns. The message from senior officers was — 124 Arjun tanks have been bought already; no more would be ordered for the army’s fleet of 4000 tanks. The comparative trial, or so went the message, was merely to evaluate what operational role could be given to the army’s handful of Arjuns.

“The senior officers who attended the trials were taken aback by the Arjun’s strong performance,” an officer who was present through the trials frankly stated. “But they were also pleased that the Arjun had finally come of age.”

The army’s Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which has bitterly opposed buying more Arjuns, will now find it difficult to sustain that opposition. In keeping out the Arjun, the DGMF has opted to retain the already obsolescent T-72 tank in service for another two decades, spending thousands of crores in upgrading its vintage systems.

Now, confronted with the Arjun’s demonstrated capability, the army will face growing pressure to order more Arjuns.

The current order of 124 Arjuns is equipping the army’s 140 Armoured Brigade in Jaisalmer. With that order almost completed, the Arjun production line at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, near Chennai, needs more orders urgently. The Rs 50 crore facility can churn out 50 Arjuns annually. That would allow for the addition of close to one Arjun regiment each year (a regiment is authorised 62 tanks).

Tank experts point out that conducting trials only in Mahajan does not square with the army’s assertion that they are evaluating a role for the Arjun. Says Major General HM Singh, who oversaw the Arjun’s development for decades, “If they were evaluating where the Arjun should be deployed, they should have conducted the trials in different types of terrain: desert, semi-desert, plains and riverine. It seems as if the army has already decided to employ the Arjun in the desert.”

The Arjun’s sterling performance in the desert raises another far-reaching question: should the Arjun — with its proven mobility, firepower and armour protection — be restricted to a defensive role or should it equip the army’s strike corps for performing a tank’s most devastating (and glamorous) role: attacking deep into enemy territory during war? Each strike corps has 8-9 tank regiments. If the army recommends the Arjun for a strike role, that would mean an additional order of about 500 Arjuns.

But Business Standard has learned that senior officers are hesitant to induct the Arjun into strike corps. Sources say the Arjun will be kept out of strike formations on the grounds that it is incompatible with other strike corps equipment, e.g. assault bridges that cannot bear the 60-tonne weight of the Arjun.

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

===========================================

As expected, Arjun goin to Desert.

 

[Choppers]

GREAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAt NEEWS GUYS.

Congratulations to DRDO. Well done!!!!

 

[Choppers]

SELF-DELETE......

 

[thebrownguy]

 

[Indian-Devil]

Its really a great news. Really good work by DRDO. Lets Indian Army and MOD officially declare this.
It will be great if Army put Arjun in Strike corps, Then Arjun will be having a real competion and i am dead sure it gona give a big punch to rivals.

 

[graphican]

Good Luck guys.. Just as you, I am happy to see India going for this machine.

 

[ptldM3]

Congradulations if it's true but i wouldn't take anything writen by Ajai Shukla seriously. Any idea when the India army is scheduled the make an official statement regarding the trials?