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if India dont want to depend on russians so much, you may try T-84 Yatagan from Ukraine. it is a nice toy with its 120mm gun

A tank that Turkey rejected on technical grounds after much anticipation? Don't get me wrong I think Ukraine is a great country to go to for access to Russian equipment but India already has a direct pipeline, hence the massive T-90 induction taking place.
 
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Ok Robo, Arjun can be a modern tank on theory but what about the reality? it has so many problems that it became a funny subject even in our forums. i think Arjun needs to be rebuilt or to take the t-90. thats what i can say. no need to pronounce the break downs and mechanical problems of Arjun.
by the way what does Kanjal mean?
 
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A tank that Turkey rejected on technical grounds after much anticipation? Don't get me wrong I think Ukraine is a great country to go to for access to Russian equipment but India already has a direct pipeline, hence the massive T-90 induction taking place.


We rejected it because Turkey is a Nato member and we are stranger to russian based systems.
We intented to upgrade our m60 serie old tanks with GDLS but they refused the job. so our tanks are upgraded by IMI. why IMI? it was the only company at that date who could do this. it was a very difficult phase for us. it was so difficult that we decided to build our own tank...
so here we work on Altay. Thanks to Germans. they didnt give us their leopards. they made us build our own tank :lol: it is too late for me. i need to sleep so i cant type more=) may be i go on when i wake up. sun is rising here and i need to go to bed.
take care mate.
Kansu
 
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Ok Robo, Arjun can be a modern tank on theory but what about the reality? it has so many problems that it became a funny subject even in our forums. i think Arjun needs to be rebuilt or to take the t-90. thats what i can say. no need to pronounce the break downs and mechanical problems of Arjun.
by the way what does Kanjal mean?

These are similar to the comments given for LCA 3-4 years back. The tone of comments for LCA is already changing from unmasked ridicule of an impossible venture to lame complaints about using untested composites and delays. The same will happen for Arjun, sooner than later..
 
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Indian Army's logistcs chain is built around the T-72s and T-90, atleast they have been sure about that, while it may be a good idea now to replace the T-72 with Arjun, what about the all the new logistics?

With all due respect to the Ajun as a tank, it sure is creating more problems than solving them :(

Now that's just you being an idiot :hitwall:

Of course the Bloody logistics chain is built around Tanks they already have. They wont have logistics Chains for thanks they might get :argh:

And one point or the other you have to get new equipment and adapt, you cant just keep using the same tanks and then say its because we built our logistics around them, you induct new tanks and build around them as well. :argh:

What would rather have a bunch of old upgraded T-72's or Bunch of Brand new Arjun Heavy tanks.
You going to have to get new tanks eventualy and upgrade logistics.

Don't make excuses for an army which is making another one of its great idiotic moves since the Bofors deal went sour 20 years ago.
:hitwall:
 
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Ok Robo, Arjun can be a modern tank on theory but what about the reality? it has so many problems that it became a funny subject even in our forums. i think Arjun needs to be rebuilt or to take the t-90. thats what i can say. no need to pronounce the break downs and mechanical problems of Arjun.
by the way what does Kanjal mean?


Well problems also with T90-, t
1) Their engines heat up in high temp,
2) They dont have high Accuracy to take target while on the move.
3) Their Armour cant take direct hit, while Arjun Armour can take any Enemy Ammo at point blank range and move on unhurt, got it

Arjun tank tested for 80,000 Km , and Israeli Company Certified it best tank ,
 
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We rejected it because Turkey is a Nato member and we are stranger to russian based systems.
We intented to upgrade our m60 serie old tanks with GDLS but they refused the job. so our tanks are upgraded by IMI. why IMI? it was the only company at that date who could do this. it was a very difficult phase for us. it was so difficult that we decided to build our own tank...
so here we work on Altay. Thanks to Germans. they didnt give us their leopards. they made us build our own tank :lol: it is too late for me. i need to sleep so i cant type more=) may be i go on when i wake up. sun is rising here and i need to go to bed.
take care mate.
Kansu

then why looking for S300 system from russia?? if you dont have knowledge of Internal political and Arjun system, kindly dont't comment.

Indian is infested by Weapons Agents which dont want indian wepon to get success , They tried in Akash missile also, and Arjun. also
 
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then why looking for S300 system from russia?? if you dont have knowledge of Internal political and Arjun system, kindly dont't comment.

Indian is infested by Weapons Agents which dont want indian wepon to get success , They tried in Akash missile also, and Arjun. also

He is correct... If you ever have a chance to visit south block in Delhi...Then there you will find these weapon agent queued up in every quarter with something new to show or something new to tell....and lots in back channel...Try to visit Defence expo in delhi this month you will gain some knowledge (If you sell crap and tell some official that this is good for your family and you... he will buy it for the country)....

We need a complete revamp on these Babu... who spend lots of time in Russia with whiteskins.....:cheesy::woot::cool::smokin:
 
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^^^^^^^
I think the trend is shifting if MoD statements / actions are anything to go by
 
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It is very sad to say that some traitors are there in our armed force too and they are involved in defaming products made by DRDO and swing the tender for foreign products (mainly Russians). There is no prize for guessing the reason for that. In recent trial it is said DRDO has installed instruments like black-box or data recorder of aircraft to prevent sabotage prior to trial (previously the german made engine of four tanks mysteriously stopped functioning in a trial) and Arjun proved itself. Thanks to GOI for promptly arranging for third party trial (by a reputed tank manufacturer, I think from Israel), and bring the truth out.

The Army is now complaing about heavy weight and size of the tank. Were they sleeping while sending and updating recommendations for years?
 
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then why looking for S300 system from russia?? if you dont have knowledge of Internal political and Arjun system, kindly dont't comment.

Indian is infested by Weapons Agents which dont want indian wepon to get success , They tried in Akash missile also, and Arjun. also


We wont buy S300 missile systems. We seem interested in them just to make americans think that they are not alone. Do you understand? Also we know what happened greek s300 systems they bought from russia. please spare time and take a look at that...

And you say i dont know about your Arjun. To be honest i know enough about your famous hero MBT :) it is famous with its poor engineering. So what else should i know about your tank? go on... please get the Arjun. Build more and more. i was not born when this project started. and it still goes on... By the way Pakistan already built its own tank while India was trying to upgrade and solve the problems of arjun. So i should give up making comment? i think its you who should admit that Arjun is a failure. How much money more will India spare for this tank? the truth is, if Arjun was capable enoughyou wouldnt intend to buy t-90's. Please dont give me the decision of Indian air force as an example on this thread. if such a thing exists, it shows that you lack of vision.

Best Regards
Kansu

ps: Thanks for the answer about Kanjal. i know what it is=) the thing i asked was its meaning in indian language. Thank you again :smitten:
 
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http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/piercingarmy%5Cs-armourdeception/384570/


Piercing the army's armour of deception

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi February 04, 2010, 0:31 IST



Vital facts on the Russian T-90 tank deal were suppressed and its performance on the field has been a disaster.



On August 24 last year, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) dressed up failure as achievement when — almost nine years after India bought the T-90 tank from Russia — the first 10 built-in-India T-90s were ceremonially rolled out of the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) near Chennai.

No reasons were given for that delay. Nor did the Ministry of Defence (MoD) reveal the T-90’s ballooning cost, now a whopping Rs 17.5 crore. On November 30, 2006, the MoD told the Lok Sabha that the T-90 tank cost Rs 12 crore apiece. Parliament does not yet know about the 50 per cent rise in cost.

The story of the T-90 has been coloured by deception and obfuscation from even before the tank was procured. Business Standard has pieced together, from internal documents and multiple interviews with MoD sources, an account of how the Indian Army has saddled itself with an underperforming, yet overpriced, version of the Russian T-90.

The deception stemmed from the army’s determination to push through the T-90 contract despite vocal opposition from sections of Parliament. Former Prime Minister H D Deve Gowda argued — allegedly because a close associate had a commercial interest in continuing with T-72 production — that fitting the T-72 with modern fire control systems and night vision devices would be cheaper than buying the T-90. Deve Gowda correctly pointed out that even Russia’s army had spurned the T-90.

To bypass his opposition, the MoD and the army reached an understanding with Rosvoorouzhenie, Russia’s arms export agency. The T-90 would be priced only marginally higher than the T-72 by removing key T-90 systems; India would procure those through supplementary contracts after the T-90 entered service. Excluded from India’s T-90s was the Shtora active protection system, which protects the T-90 from incoming enemy missiles. This was done knowing well that Pakistan’s anti-tank defences are based heavily on missiles.

Other important systems were also pared. The MoD opted to buy reduced numbers of the INVAR missile, which the T-90 fires. Maintenance vehicles, which are vital to keep the T-90s running, were not included in the contract. All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore, while the assembled-in-India T-90s were Rs 12 crore apiece.

The MoD did not mention that these prices would rise when the supplementary contracts were negotiated. Nor did it reveal that India’s pared-down T-90s barely matched the performance of the Pakistan Army’s recently acquired T-80 UD tank, which India had cited as the threat that demanded the T-90.

Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident — and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan — that the T-90s were not battleworthy. The T-90’s thermal imaging (TI) sights, through which the tank aims its 125mm gun, proved unable to function in Indian summer temperatures. And, the INVAR missiles assembled in India simply didn’t work. Since nobody knew why, they were sent back to Russia.

Even more alarmingly, the army discovered that the T-90 sighting systems could not fire Indian tank ammunition, which was falling short of the targets. So, even as a panicked MoD appealed to the DRDO and other research institutions to re-orient the T-90’s fire control computer for firing Indian ammunition, Russian ammunition was bought.

With Russia playing hardball, none of the supplementary contracts have yet gone through. The TI sights remain a problem. The army has decided to fit each T-90 with an Environment Control System, to cool the delicate electronics with a stream of chilled air. None of the world’s current tanks, other than France’s LeClerc, has such a system. The American Abrams and the British Challenger tanks fought in the Iraq desert without air-conditioning. India’s Arjun tank, too, has “hardened” electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer.

Nor has the MoD managed to procure the Shtora anti-missile system. The Directorate General of Mechanised Forces now plans to equip India’s eventual 1,657-tank T-90 fleet with the advanced ARENA active protection system, for which it has budgeted Rs 2,500 crore in the Army Acquisition Plan for 2009-11.

The greatest concern arose when Russia held back on its contractual obligation to transfer the technology needed to build 1,000 T-90s in India. But, instead of pressuring Russia, the MoD rewarded it in 2007 with a contract for 347 more T-90s. In an astonishing Catch-22, the MoD argued that the new purchase was needed because indigenous production had not begun.

Next month, when the T-90 is measured against the Arjun in comparative trials, the T-90s’ drawbacks will not be evident. But, as officers who have operated the T-90 admit, these could be crucial handicaps in battle.

“It is for these reasons that I have consistently argued for supporting the Indian Arjun tank,” says General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, former army chief and himself a tankman. “Another country can hold India hostage in many ways. We need to place an order for several hundred Arjun tanks so that economies of scale can kick in and we can bring down the price even further.”

If the Arjun performs strongly in next month’s comparative trials around Suratgarh and Pokhran, that order could be in the offing.
 
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Really shocking news about the T-90.
The Army needs to wake up. I feel the Army officers serving today at high ranks are not of the desired quality. Gen Kapoor is a prime example. He has not led the IA correctly and does not inspire confidence.
I hope the Arjun does well and the Army is made to eat humble pie.
 
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We wont buy S300 missile systems. We seem interested in them just to make americans think that they are not alone. Do you understand? Also we know what happened greek s300 systems they bought from russia. please spare time and take a look at that...

And you say i dont know about your Arjun. To be honest i know enough about your famous hero MBT :) it is famous with its poor engineering. So what else should i know about your tank? go on... please get the Arjun. Build more and more. i was not born when this project started. and it still goes on... By the way Pakistan already built its own tank while India was trying to upgrade and solve the problems of arjun. So i should give up making comment? i think its you who should admit that Arjun is a failure. How much money more will India spare for this tank? the truth is, if Arjun was capable enoughyou wouldnt intend to buy t-90's. Please dont give me the decision of Indian air force as an example on this thread. if such a thing exists, it shows that you lack of vision.

Best Regards
Kansu

ps: Thanks for the answer about Kanjal. i know what it is=) the thing i asked was its meaning in indian language. Thank you again :smitten:
You have seen none of the tanks in India, Pakistan or China in real battle nor you are qualified to understand technical details. Whatever you read about Arjun is story of denial by Indian Army and gossips in different forums. Let us know if you had any other sources. Please read about recent opinion of Army about Arjun MBT.

September 2007 winter trials - Indian army said Arjun's performance unsatisfactory, including at least four engine failures.

DRDO, on the other hand, insisted the tank was a viable choice for adoption and suggested the unsatisfactory performance of the engine during the winter trials was due to sabotage.

But …by some magic (installation of black-box like device or presence of third party expert) in 2008 summer trials Army said in a letter to defense ministry "the tank was subjected to the most strenuous of tests and it performed 'admirably' well"

The Hindu News Update Service


As suggested by Army………., Arjun tanks were subjected to rigorous trials and assessment by a third party audit (an internationally reputed tank manufacturer). After the extensive evaluation, the reputed tank manufacturer confirmed that the MBT Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and fire power characteristics suitable for Indian desert. They also added inputs such as quality auditing, production procedures and refined calibration procedures for further enhancing the performance of MBT Arjun. DRDO, will be incorporating all these inputs in the next regiment of 62 tanks for handing over to Army before Mar 2010 as desired by the Army….

PIB Press Release

However, there is logic if Army is looking ahead two decades and interested in joint venture with Russia for a futuristic tank as none of the options Arjun or T 90 is going to catch up with the development in Tank warfare after a decade or so.
 
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