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I just read on a forum that rifled barrel guns cannot fire "missles",and so is the case with Challenge2 tank (the only other tank with a rifled gun).Is this capability to fire a ATGM(LAHAT) using a rifled gun unique to Arjun??????

"Challenger 2 is equipped with a 120 mm (4.7-inch) 55 calibre long L30A1 tank gun,[5] the successor to the L11 gun used on Chieftain and Challenger 1. The gun is made from high strength Electro Slag Remelting (ESR) steel with a chromium alloy lining and, like earlier British 120 mm guns, it is insulated by a thermal sleeve. It is fitted with a muzzle reference system and fume extractor, and is controlled by an all-electric control and stabilization system. The turret has a rotation time of 9 seconds through 360 degrees.

Uniquely among NATO main battle tank armament, the L30A1 is rifled, because the British Army continues to place a premium on the use of high explosive squash head (HESH) rounds in addition to APFSDS armour-piercing rounds. HESH rounds have a longer range (up to 8 kilometres / 5 miles) than APFSDS, and are more effective against buildings and thin-skinned vehicles.

Forty-nine main armament rounds are carried in the turret and hull; these are a mix of L27A1 APFSDS (also referred to as CHARM 3), L31 HESH and L34 white phosphorus smoke rounds, depending on the situation. As with earlier versions of the 120 mm gun, the propellant charges are loaded separately from the shell or KE projectile. A combustible rigid charge is used for the APFSDS rounds, and a combustible hemispherical bag charge for the HESH and Smoke rounds. An electrically-fired vent tube is used to initiate firing of the main armament rounds. (The main armament ammunition is thus described to be "three part ammunition", consisting of the projectile, charge and vent tube.) Contrary to speculation, the use of three-part ammunition rather than the NATO standard single part cased ammunition does not reduce the rate of fire of Challenger 2; in fact, a loader can often sustain a higher rate of fire than tanks firing single part ammunition, with or without auto-loaders.

The Challenger 2 is also armed with a L94A1 EX-34 7.62 mm chain gun coaxially to the left of the main gun, and a 7.62 mm L37A2 (GPMG) machine gun mounted on a pintle on the loader's hatch ring. 4,200 rounds of 7.62 mm ammunition are carried."
Challenger 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A bit off topic but i had to ask :)
 
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yes these are the differences...but the point is that it is a main battle tank...and so is the T-90...we can't have both of them...they need different infrastructural requirements...like the rail carriages won't be able to carry Arjuns...while they will carry the T-90s...about the pretcion suite...I am not sure about the Arjun's Kanchan being better than the Kaktus...

even i had heard the same about the problem of present rail carriages not being able to carry ARJUN but in some other forum probably BR or, *** ( i am not sure) some one said that ARJUN is just 5 cms more wider than the present carriage size . so if they are carried only 5 cm of the body will be outside the carriage...if that is true than i dont think 5 cm over size will be that much of an issue , will it...?
 
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LAHAT missile hits the target at an accuracy of 0.7 meter CEP and an angle of over 30 degrees, providing effective penetration of up to 800 mm of armor steel with its tandem warhead to deal with add-on reactive armor. LAHAT might also carry embedded active protection system countermeasure capabilities. In any tank the LAHAT is stowed like other rounds in the ammunition rack, and handled just like any other type of ammunition.


what you heard is wrong. somebody tried to fool you for sure.:azn:
Maybe you didnt read what I said, I am not talking about LAHAT missile buddy I am talking about Arjun MBT, what you are telling me i already know.

Oh really, no offense buddy but seems like your army is fooling me :cheesy:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/5579-arjun-tank-faulty.html
http://dailymailnews.com/dmsp0204/16-0110.htm:azn:
And please dont make a big deal out of it
Peace Out!
 
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Maybe you didnt read what I said, I am not talking about LAHAT missile buddy I am talking about Arjun MBT, what you are telling me i already know.

Oh really, no offense buddy but seems like your army is fooling me :cheesy:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/5579-arjun-tank-faulty.html
http://dailymailnews.com/dmsp0204/16-0110.htm:azn:
And please dont make a big deal out of it
Peace Out!

sir ur link is notr working but still this problme has been discussed till death in the past,main problem which arjun was facing were the inaccuracy while firing,engine failure..both of these problems have been now sorted out,in the parliamentery report mr. Antony cleared it,It was this success which actually made the DRDO confident enough to pitch thier product against a prooved and robust killing platform like the T-90,drdo's name is more associated with delays on projects,the whole world is looking for this kind of comparitive trial..the whole trial has its own PR value an organisation will never evn in its wildest dream would want to be pitched against a world class product if its not confident of its product,the DRDO took a great risk and i think it payed:agree::agree: ....also how many such trials have been conducted around the world in the past??? a tank is evolved in years tak the example of Merkava,leopard..they have been incorporating the best tech which keeps coming,its a ever going process:cheers::cheers:
 
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yes these are the differences...but the point is that it is a main battle tank...and so is the T-90...we can't have both of them...they need different infrastructural requirements...like the rail carriages won't be able to carry Arjuns...while they will carry the T-90s...about the pretcion suite...I am not sure about the Arjun's Kanchan being better than the Kaktus...

paritosh sir i agree with you till a certain extent,actually infrastructure is not that big a issue as it has been made to look,rail carriages have been developed which can carry arjun somebody had posted a link to that on this forum if iam not mistaking,actually army just cannot induct the Arjun in big number's reason being Indian armies doctrinal revolves around t-90 or it old brother t-72,Arjun is from a different class its a heavy mbt,havent we all been noticing the changes that has been ging on in the statement,intially the trial was t-90 vs Arjun then it became trial where only arjun will be evaluated(t-90 skipped) from that we have today trials conducted so that we can devise the role in which Arjun will best fit,arjun outshines t-90 anyday if we go by the specs..army is accepting it today beacuse it knows that it is a good tank,its is our deso maal,and if we want somethimng homegrown this is correct time to give the impetus,jingoism removed i wud never want my men going in the field with a desi inferior maal against my enemies tank,i will say a russi tank with all isreali and european maal in it should so that we come out victors..take for example PA'S al-khalid 1, i will say its a dangerous machine now!!why beacause now PAKISTANI ARMY is stuffing european equipment onboard it,will they be rolling out al khalid 2...yes they will.structural shortcoming armour composition,fire control system,electronics everything etc etc will come n the new packge depeding upon thier budget...similarly arjun mk2 is there in the form of tank ex,havent we seen it drdo was smart on this they are working along with isreali's on it adding what best cann be given to it the Rafael Trophy Active Protection System has already been tested on it if u believe me and much more.:cheers::cheers:
 
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Yes but no offense, I heard it lacks accuracy plus i am not good in tanks but I think in Al-Khalid 1 it is different and also AL-Khalid 2 which is under development
Maybe you didnt read what I said, I am not talking about LAHAT missile buddy I am talking about Arjun MBT, what you are telling me i already know.


so what exactly is it?? accuracy of what?? Arjun???

i think you are confused about Arjun the MBT and arjun the archer in pandavas of mahabharatha..

Yes he is a bit un accurate at times..

Indian army is not throwing tanks like a cricket ball at enemy to be accurate..

accuracy you referred is very much was about LAHAT , coz that was the relavant discussion then...
 
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Rafeal shouldn't be get confused with the French aircraft named the same.
Rafael Advanced Defense Systems Ltd. , known as RAFAEL or Rafael, (also spelled as Raphael or Rephael, is the Israeli authority for development of weapons and military technology. Rafael is a former sub-division of the Israeli Defence ministry and is considered a governmental firm.


Do i need to speak of Indian and Isreali co operation??
 
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YouTube - Trophy Demo - March 2006



YouTube - Trophy anti-RPG system (as seen on FOX News)

Rafeal shouldn't be get confused with the French aircraft named the same.
Rafael Advanced Defense Systems Ltd. , known as RAFAEL or Rafael, (also spelled as Raphael or Rephael, is the Israeli authority for development of weapons and military technology. Rafael is a former sub-division of the Israeli Defence ministry and is considered a governmental firm.


Do i need to speak of Indian and Isreali co operation??

Is this in the Arjun?
 
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paritosh sir i agree with you till a certain extent,actually infrastructure is not that big a issue as it has been made to look,rail carriages have been developed which can carry arjun somebody had posted a link to that on this forum if iam not mistaking,actually army just cannot induct the Arjun in big number's reason being Indian armies doctrinal revolves around t-90 or it old brother t-72,Arjun is from a different class its a heavy mbt,havent we all been noticing the changes that has been ging on in the statement,intially the trial was t-90 vs Arjun then it became trial where only arjun will be evaluated(t-90 skipped) from that we have today trials conducted so that we can devise the role in which Arjun will best fit,arjun outshines t-90 anyday if we go by the specs..army is accepting it today beacuse it knows that it is a good tank,its is our deso maal,and if we want somethimng homegrown this is correct time to give the impetus,jingoism removed i wud never want my men going in the field with a desi inferior maal against my enemies tank,i will say a russi tank with all isreali and european maal in it should so that we come out victors..take for example PA'S al-khalid 1, i will say its a dangerous machine now!!why beacause now PAKISTANI ARMY is stuffing european equipment onboard it,will they be rolling out al khalid 2...yes they will.structural shortcoming armour composition,fire control system,electronics everything etc etc will come n the new packge depeding upon thier budget...similarly arjun mk2 is there in the form of tank ex,havent we seen it drdo was smart on this they are working along with isreali's on it adding what best cann be given to it the Rafael Trophy Active Protection System has already been tested on it if u believe me and much more.:cheers::cheers:YouTube - Rafael Trophy Active Protection System

I will be very happy if this is built in Arjun.:azn: Please confirm?
 
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The Pentagon's Office of Force Transformation (OFT) scoured the world for a solution and thought it found one in "Trophy," which was developed over the last decade in Israel.

Trophy works by scanning all directions and automatically detecting when an RPG is launched. The system then fires an interceptor — traveling hundreds of miles a minute — that destroys the RPG safely away from the vehicle.

OFT subjected Trophy to 30 tests and found it is "more than 98 percent" effective at killing RPGs. Officials then made plans to battle-test the system on some Stryker fighting vehicles headed to Iraq this year.

But the U.S. Army blocked that testing. Why? Pentagon sources tell NBC News — and internal Army documents seem to confirm — that Army officials consider Trophy a threat to their crown jewel, the $160 billion Future Combat System (FCS). Under FCS, the Army is paying Raytheon Co. $70 million to build an RPG-defense system from scratch.


In an interview with NBC News on June 26, 2006, an Army official said Trophy simply is not ready.

"The Army is opposed to deploying a system before we assure that it's safe, effective, suitable and supportable," said Col. Donald Kotchman. "Trophy is not there yet."

In letters to Congress since our first reports, the Army says that the best proof Trophy is not ready is that the "Israeli Defense Forces have yet to integrate and field Trophy."

To check out the Army's claims, we went back to Israel. We found that the Israeli military has indeed begun to integrate and field Trophy on tanks, buying at least 100 systems.

Brig. Gen. Amir Nir leads that effort. We asked him about claims that Trophy has not been sufficiently tested and that it's not ready to be deployed.

"It's the most mature, and it can do the job," he said. "We cannot afford waiting for the next generation."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16545885//


it would be soon seen on an indian tank after its in an isreali tank..
 
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Army HQ on April 24 last year issued requests for proposals to six companies (Israel Military Industries, RAFAEL, BAE Systems, Raytheon, Rosoboronexport, Saab, and Germany’s IBD Deisenroth Engineering) for procuring 1,657 active protection systems (APS) worth $270 million. Those taking part in the Indian bid were Russia’s Kolomna-based KBM Engineering Design Bureau with its Arena-E APS on offer, IMI of Israel with its Iron Fist suite on offer, RAFAEL’s Trophy APS, Raytheon’s Quick Kill APS, Saab’s LEDS-150 and Deisenroth Engineering’s AMAP-ADS. Eventually, the LEDS-150 was selected and its procurement contract was inked on January 27, 2009. The Land Electronic Defence System (LEDS) combines active signature management, soft-kill and hard-kill mechanisms to provide full spectrum active protection to armoured vehicles. Full hemispherical coverage is provided to detect incoming threats and alert the crew. When installed in full configuration, the LEDS-150 offers MBT-comparable protection to light and medium combat vehicles against engagement by weapons like RPG-7s, anti-tank guided-missiles, KE ammunition, mortars and artillery shells. The LEDS-150 is an active defence system and typically comprises laser warning sensors, ADC-150 active defence controller AD, a number of munition confirmation and tracking sensors, and high-speed directed launchers, which allow the combination of soft- and hard-kill countermeasure deployment capability to the platform, optional displays, and interconnecting harnesses. The hard kill feature of the LEDS-150 product is characterised by its capability to physically destroy the efficiency of the terminal ballistic capability of attacking munitions without residual penetration of the protected vehicle. The hard kill system detects and tracks a single or simultaneous threats and calculates if the attacking munition will hit the platform or not. The system determines the best inertial intercept position and provides the slew and firing commands to the launchers. The Mongoose-1 countermeasure missile is launched at a predetermined time to intercept and neutralise the detected munition off-board at a distance of between 5 metres and 15 metres from the vehicle to minimise the collateral damage to own forces.

Interestingly, the hulls and welded steel turrets of the 330 T-90Ms, along with their Rapira gun barrels, will be fabricated by HVF with locally-sourced raw materials, while an improved version of the indigenous ‘Kanchan’ modular ceramics-based composite laminate armour package will be used for substituting the Russian package, whose technology-transfer has been denied by Russia. The same also goes for the Kaktus ERA tiles and RPZ-86M anti-radar paint coating, which will be totally imported from Russia.

Presently, as things stand, Indian Army HQ is adhering to a modified MBT force structure, whose original version, as proposed in 2006, had called for a fleet of 3,780 MBTs, comprising 1,302 T-90s 2,356 T-72s and 124 Arjun Mk1s. The modified structure now calls for 2,473 higher-end MBTs, including 1,409 T-90s, 248 Arjuns, and 692 T-72M1 Combat Improved Ajeyas. The Army’s gameplan is to have 21 regiments of T-90s and 34 regiments of upgraded T-72M1s and six regiments of Arjuns by 2020.
 
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I will be very happy if this is built in Arjun.:azn: Please confirm?

sir ARJUN has imbued all the best tech of other world class tanks in it,thanks to the diligent work done by drdo coming to the topic ARJUN,the recent trials were actually not trials but an exercise where the strength and the weakness of ARJUN & T-90,were evaulated,ARJUN has already faced what it had to proove its worth,its time all that now comes in front of us so that the critics can have thier mouth shut,work on ARJUN 2 is already underway which is in front of us in form of tank ex,with the slant turret on it,critics have been crying rivers that arjun-mk1 armour is not slant (thats because its design is 2 decades old any more modification would have further slowed its development pace) and cannot withstand this n that,it cannot be compared to this and that may be this feeling which has homed inside them will change soon.. ARJUN had taken direct hit from t-90(ap round) and passed,if one wants kill this beast you will have to destroy its track or pray that the crew somehow swtiches off its electronics or hit it with something like a milan from less ten 200 mtrs repeatedly.How can i say all this!! well these are the words of the officers who operate it,you all must be remembering a third party was called in to evaluate ARJUN,the party was isreali.and they had gone back home stunned after witnessing ARJUNS performance..Arjun uses certain electronics that are onboard the isreali Merkeva AND Abrhams tanks,used for detection of mines, the army wants a mix of both tank now.thermal imagner of the arjun tank was something which gives it a cut above,the ergonomics inside the tank is also very good crew comfort is such taht even a russian operator would shed tears of joy:P...........thier is a self diagnsotic system which tells you if the arjun is well or not,not just this it tells you about the problem area too.this kind of tech is currently used in abrahams and merkeva 4,the main gun of arjun beats merkeva anyday,these are just not my words its what the isrealis had to say who are working on it according to then Arjun's rifled gun is an accidentle find by us.Arjun passed direct hits from t-90 AP rounds, it passed fragmented top attack munitions,guys there is alot more then what meets the eye,many member's will discard what all i have stated but thats ok..only point i wanted to make was that we should critically see how DRDO is transforming its so called failed projects into very succesful one's..


BY : THE HINDU
The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) dispelled apprehensions that there was a question mark over the capability of the indigenously manufactured Arjun tank.
Speaking at a press conference here on Saturday, DRDO chief V.K. Saraswat dismissed reports that the tank was undergoing yet another series of revaluations vis-À-vis the Russian T-90 main battle tanks.
Dr. Saraswat said that half of the 124 tanks ordered by the Army had already rolled out, and there was no rethink about their induction. The comparative evaluation referred to in media reports was nothing but a trial of the tank’s role in the overall arsenal of the Army. “It is a normal process of identifying the role the tank will play in the plans,” he said.
“Let me make it clear, that these are not evaluation trials of the Arjun tank, as those trials, including in summer and winter months, are over and more than 50 per cent of the tanks have now rolled out of the factory for induction.”

No rethink on Arjun tank: DRDO chief idrw.org

The Arjun at 58.5-tonne is much heavier than the 46.5 tonne T-90. But with more powerful engines the Arjun moves faster than the T-90. It is ideal for deployment in the arid Rajasthan-Gujarat sector facing Pakistan.

The Arjun has better and latest systems on board:victory:. It has better transmission system than the T-90, accurate firepower while on the move. The Arjun has better thermal imaging capability:cheers:, enabling it night vision.

The night vision capability of T-90 is of lower category. It malfunctions in the heat of Rajasthan, says an in-house input of the Indian Army. The Army plans to have 1,650 T-90s in the next few years. The production has been localised and the first tanks built in India rolled out a few months ago.
:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines :::coffee:
 
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My take :

Arjun is not in the class of T-90 which is sub-50 t class. It is in the class of Abraham i.e 60 t + class. Arjun is 58 t.

Capability wise also Arjun is way ahead of T-90 which has been proved time and again.

The chasis has been modified for transportation by rail. However the logistics to support the movement of the tanks across ditches, canals and rivulets are not yet developed for 60 t. This is a main worry as the plains where these tanks are planned to be used are full of these hurdles. Now they are supposed to be in the process of strategising the scenario with Arjun tanks.

Again starting from BJP government, there has been a shift in the perception of the GoI. Taking a cue from China and other similar category nations, GoI has put more thrust in Indian products. Though it does not mean 100% indigenous but having more control over the systems and technology.

So in the last 10 - 12 years we have seen lots of Indian defence products coming of the Indian organization.

Again if you notice there has been a change in the attitude of army and GoI has made it clear about IA's accountibility in such development. So starting from 2009 there has been a perceptible change of tune in regards to Arjun.

They had taken out T-70 from the competition (which Arjun is supposed to replace) and are even saying that T-90 should not be pitted or compared with Arjun, which is a different class !!!

With the trend which is coming out, IA will have to eat their words and GoI will believe no nonsense as it has become a media trial. The accountibility of the money spent will not allow GoI to allow IA to make arbitrary decision. The break even number is 500.

The numbers upto Mark II will be 500+, which will include the indigenisation of the tank almost fully. Only then the Mark-II will be really fruitful and cascade a chain of further development

Keeping fingers crossed but hope that better senses prevail.

:smitten::cheers:
 
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