Arjun News & Discussions

[con]

Of what? Arjun? Last I remember it was 124 units and I am not even sure if all 124 have been delivered. Pardon me but Arjun is dead in its tack. Regardless of the many many reverse progress and forward progress articles, Arjun has not even met all of IA's GSRs as per very many of the same articles. The fact that you have so many different PoVs about the delay in its induction is a barometer of where the program is going. We have been discussing the Arjun on various forums at least since 2000. In the past 7 years, this tank has not moved beyond its current status (which is not even IOC).

Sorry to disagree with the Indian members here and their library of articles, the proof is in the eating of the pudding. I have yet to see the IAC orbat showing any armoured unit of relevance fielding these tanks (I know a couple are but its been the same couple of units ever since 2002 or so).

I can tell you that the project finished development in 2004.
Now please tell what would define as IOC? Do you mean there should 'x" numbers in IA to be defined as IOC?
Can you tell how long will take to train a t-series tank crew to move over to a western style tank design?
Can you tell me how long will it take to set a infrastructure for a completely new type tank within a army having a T-series infrastructure?
What about setting up production on units which have been assembling T-series?

Do you think all this can be done within 3 years from the time the development ended in 2004? IOC within 3 years?
How long did it take for Pakistan to IOC AK,which is an upgrade of PA's existing infrastructure? Why did PA decide against M1A1 during the late 80's?

 

[con]

I was think specifically along the lines of numbers of t-90s and t-72s in service. If the stated claim of 3500 tanks being the requirement, then I am wondering what the numbers would be. If i recall there were 1900 t-90's and 1200 t-72's (I don't have any references on that as I am currently on a train and don't have my resources at hand or inb the country for that matter ) So how can 650-950 be correct?

Keys,
Arjun is not meant to replace 1-1 with T-72. T-72 and T-90 is purely t fill in the numbers,while Arjun will be added in phases.
It will be distraous to completely replace the T-72. Imagine the amount of training that needs to go in.
Arjun will always be smaller in numbers. some where around 500-700.
Britian has 700 challengers. Iraq had 3500 T-series. Which won finally?

 

[Keysersoze]

I can tell you that the project finished development in 2004.
Now please tell what would define as IOC? Do you mean there should 'x" numbers in IA to be defined as IOC?
Can you tell how long will take to train a t-series tank crew to move over to a western style tank design?
Can you tell me how long will it take to set a infrastructure for a completely new type tank within a army having a T-series infrastructure?
What about setting up production on units which have been assembling T-series?

Do you think all this can be done within 3 years from the time the development ended in 2004? IOC within 3 years?
How long did it take for Pakistan to IOC AK,which is an upgrade of PA's existing infrastructure? Why did PA decide against M1A1 during the late 80's?

A quick point. the change over would not as big a change (or should not be) as the IA operated western mbts within the recent past. So the operational doctrine .would not a be a huge drama. SO 3 years is a bit too long for that to be valid. In that time frame there would at least be a few operational units by now.

 

[con]

A quick point. the change over would not as big a change (or should not be) as the IA operated western mbts within the recent past. So the operational doctrine .would not a be a huge drama. SO 3 years is a bit too long for that to be valid. In that time frame there would at least be a few operational units by now.

Keys,
IA did use British tanks.However the majority of the tankers are now T-series "graduates".
and most of the British tank graduates are lesser in numbers. Arjun has been a turf war between this two camps. Tanker who have been with British tanks love Arjun,while T-series are not used to it and get a cultural shock.

A simple example. A tankers driving T-series cannot so easily handle a much bigger Arjun.
There have been reports about they screwing up tracks etc. DRDO has always been complaining that IA use Arjun like T-series.

The doctrine as well is also a big issue. Take the example of range. A reporter named Ajai Shukla ,an ex-IA tanker complained that the Arjun longer range guns is no use because IA ha always fought battle at under 900 mts.
What is the issue here? The problem in the range of T-72. He says under 900 because the tech used to limit the range and they are trained to max out the T-72,which to be effective should be close to the target.
Now if you Arjun which can crack at 2km+ what do you do? Dont you need to train to use this range effectively?

Keys,if you observe any complains about IA you wil see that it is all through T-series lens.
You can see Arjun at 1km,but not T-series..hence T-72 better etc..etc..
That is the problem...

 

[BATMAN]

Of what? Arjun? Last I remember it was 124 units and I am not even sure if all 124 have been delivered.

IA was forced to place order of 124 Arjun, in 2001 but they are not produced till todate. Before the may war games the known numbers were 5 prototypes but some how by news papers this surprise poped up that the number of participated Arjun were 14.
After the trials DRDO informed the newsmen they will only produce more after the green signal from Army.

 

[blain2]

I can tell you that the project finished development in 2004.
Now please tell what would define as IOC? Do you mean there should 'x" numbers in IA to be defined as IOC?
Can you tell how long will take to train a t-series tank crew to move over to a western style tank design?
Can you tell me how long will it take to set a infrastructure for a completely new type tank within a army having a T-series infrastructure?
What about setting up production on units which have been assembling T-series?

Do you think all this can be done within 3 years from the time the development ended in 2004? IOC within 3 years?
How long did it take for Pakistan to IOC AK,which is an upgrade of PA's existing infrastructure? Why did PA decide against M1A1 during the late 80's?

No my point about IOC is that there has been no mention of it aside from the fact that 124 initial models (not even the ones with chages) were pushed off to the IA.

To train crews on new types usually in the Indo-Pak Armies is done on the basis of train the trainer. This allows for the initial cadres to get into units and train other crews. Not sure why it would take 3 years for a tank crew to convert to Arjun from a Russian T series (usually a Tank conversion course is ver much less than a year but you have ongoing training in the units).

As far as your point about how long it takes to assemble a tank when a country already has T series assembly line, then my answer is "ideally shorter than it took Pakistan to assemble AK series from scratch".

AK series development started in 1988 or so with the first prototype delivered in 1991. Currently 4 Cavalry units (part of the Pakistani Strike Corps) are equipped with AK.

PA decided against the Abrams because it failed some of the tests that it was put through and eventually the cost and susceptibility to US sanctions led to ruling out of Abrams for PA.

 

[Mohammad Ali Akanda]

*India's Arjun MBT remains on the starting block
An Indian parliamentary committee has urged the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to seek foreign assistance to overcome continuing problems with the Arjun main...
23-Mar-2007

http://jdw.janes.com/public/jdw/index.shtml

Which Indian Tank is the best?

 

[Mohammad Ali Akanda]

Its a stupid piece of Engneering, Anyways they should be buying a western tank on ToT. Learn it, and then go for it again. Drop the Project now.

It is better to drop this project of Arjun.

 

[con]

No my point about IOC is that there has been no mention of it aside from the fact that 124 initial models (not even the ones with chages) were pushed off to the IA.

To train crews on new types usually in the Indo-Pak Armies is done on the basis of train the trainer. This allows for the initial cadres to get into units and train other crews. Not sure why it would take 3 years for a tank crew to convert to Arjun from a Russian T series (usually a Tank conversion course is ver much less than a year but you have ongoing training in the units).

As far as your point about how long it takes to assemble a tank when a country already has T series assembly line, then my answer is "ideally shorter than it took Pakistan to assemble AK series from scratch".

AK series development started in 1988 or so with the first prototype delivered in 1991. Currently 4 Cavalry units (part of the Pakistani Strike Corps) are equipped with AK.

PA decided against the Abrams because it failed some of the tests that it was put through and eventually the cost and susceptibility to US sanctions led to ruling out of Abrams for PA.

blain2,
Let me put across to you the saga about Arjun.
The development of current Arjun,whose requirements was put across in 1987-1988(after PA started evaluating M1A1) and it was completed in 2004. In 2004 a test completed, production prototype was finalised.
Now DRDO doesnot produce tanks.They develop it. The production is carried out by another unit which was already had it's hands full on T-72 upgrade and T-90 infra set for assembling further T-90 units.

The production units don't care about what work they until their productions lines are full i.e T-72 and T-90. which means they did not bother about setting up line for Arjun.
Second point, all they have been doing is assembling T series..screw driver tech.
Imagine the setup required if you need to build something from scratch. They took their own time to setup the lines. Meanwhile DRDO's Arjun developer CVRDE build couple of the initial examples themselves which could be given to the IA for training purpose.

Now the issue was if you dont have enough numbers what will you train on? Until the production are up to the task there is no tanks to train on. Somehow they managed to setup the production and initial around 8 or something was delivered. Now the IA was furious because the production unit screwed up the production of Arjun tanks. They send them back to the production units. This is what the Indian media report about "Arjun not yet finished etc etc... " without knowing the difference b/w development prototype and production examples.

Now to the aspect of training. Arjun gives abilities which are not present in any of IA's tank fleet. Long range guns,TI, Heavy armour, BMS, various electronics, missile firing ability,bigger tank, hydro pnuematic suspension. Training will not involve just learning to shoot. They have learn to maintain these machines. Would it possible to train tankers with so much details within less than a year?
IA's 43 regiment(Indian member correct me if I am wrong) is equipped with Arjun. At the last count, there seem to around 40+ Arjun in IA with end of 2008 set for completion of 124. Recent reports have indicated a follow on order on after 124. The production unit are so pathetic that DRDO would not be offically handing over Arjun to production units until they have produced 50 examples without issues.

Now why PA did not go for M1A1. Personally I would it has nothing to do failed test. we all know what M1A1 is capable of and PA test was not far from first gulf war.
PA did not induct them because of the infra and training issue. Remember tanker within PA/IA are not educated lot. Teaching them to maintain things like hydro-pnuematic susp is not easy. A reason why PA still sticks with T-series evolution like AK. T-series always been a tankers tank. It works and can be maintained very easily.

Do you know that IA was talking to the germans for inducting Leo's as PA was testing M1A1. since PA lost interest in M1A1 and russian provided T-72 at rock bottom price,IA choose T-72. else we could have Leo's and M1A1 in the subcontinent. So much for the "light tanks" constraint for the subcontinent.

 

[joey]

zraver, now you might help us and tell if if Arjun can do hunter killer or not..

The only thing CMS lacks is a laser range finder? anythign else? seems to be a stripped down version of IGMS to keep costs low.

 

[Averroes]

Indegenious Development?

While the project had started as an in-house project, there has been a significant level of foreign involvement in the past few years in this project. Israeli contracters working with DRDO on the Tank has already been well documented in the public media, but sources confirm participation of American and South Korean entities in the recent stages.

In fact American firms are said to have been consulted for setting up large scale production facilities for the Tank.

Arjun MBT Unofficial Trials: Indian Army Satisfied With Performance in Rajasthan | India Defence

 

[joey]

Indegenious Development?

While the project had started as an in-house project, there has been a significant level of foreign involvement in the past few years in this project. Israeli contracters working with DRDO on the Tank has already been well documented in the public media, but sources confirm participation of American and South Korean entities in the recent stages.

In fact American firms are said to have been consulted for setting up large scale production facilities for the Tank.

Arjun MBT Unofficial Trials: Indian Army Satisfied With Performance in Rajasthan | India Defence

Production Facility is independent on a Tanks developement, If you have actually seen Tanks production facility specially abrams, problem is to mass produce a tank you need highly mechanised production facility one of the problems i have told here several thousand times is due to very fine tolerance of Arjun it was getting much harder slower and erroneous to build by the method OFB builds T series tanks the reason to mechanize/robotize production line in which in handling several things we might as well see some american instruments.

The rest of the report is completely junk, Actually there was a keen possibility of tatas manufacturing the korean tank but thats pure rumour, Israeli participation yes electro-optical instruments, lahat et al, SAGEM's role is there but it has been replaced by BEL's role home made.

 

[Titanium]

due to very fine tolerance of Arjun it was getting much harder slower and erroneous to build by the method OFB builds T series tanks the reason to mechanize/robotize production line in which in handling several things we might as well see some american instruments.

Seems like baby doll, which need to be kept in Airconditioned environment, certaninly not a war equipment. Joey you are very funny man

 

[con]

There you go.
A report praising Arjun(as required to prove it is working)!

Ajai Shukla
Sunday, September 9, 2007 (New Delhi)
For three decades, India's Arjun tank project has struggled and has been scoffed at by experts and dismissed by the army.

The army, in fact, refused to accept the tank into service until comparative trials were held pitting the Arjun against the army's Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks.

But now, mysteriously the army has asked the Ministry of Defence to call off the comparative trials.

The T-72 has proved itself over years, says the army, and the T-90 is even better - only the Arjun needs to prove itself.

Meanwhile, the army is going ahead with buying 347 more T-90s paying a billion dollars to Russia. The army chief will be visiting Russia next week and the defence minister will follow next month.

The MoD itself had insisted on comparative trials before this turnaround. Now it says that you can't compare a 46-tonne T-90 with a 60-tonne Arjun.

But the men who built the tank in the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment in Chennai believe that's just an excuse to avoid comparative trials which would prove that Arjun is the best tank.

''People have been asking that question, how can you compare a 40 tonne class tank with a 60 tonne class tank, and I think the golden question is that irrespective of the weight and other features, if one is given a choice as to which tank he'd like to ride to battle, which tank would you choose?'' said Major General HM Singh, Additional DG, CVRDE.

This competitiveness is a sign of the Arjun's new confidence. After three decades of public criticism, the Arjun seems to have ironed out its defects.

''Over a period of five years, we have evaluated this tank in the deserts of Rajasthan. We have evaluated over 70,000 km of cumulative run with 15 tanks we have fired over 10,000 rounds,'' said R Jayakumar, Associate Director, CVRDE.

But success came only in 2005 after the Arjun hardened its electronics to work in the desert heat and fixed chronic suspension leakages.

The army then demanded that the tank be able to drive for 20 minutes under six feet of water, and that's been done too.

Now as the Arjun races over these rumble strips, it has logged up notable successes.

In the year 2000, the Indian Kanchan Armour proved itself in trials - a T-72 couldn't penetrate the Arjun even from point blank range.

Last June firing trials noted that the ''accuracy and consistency of the Arjun tank was proved beyond doubt.''

While the T-90 plans to install an air conditioner to keep its electronics working, the Arjun's electronics now work at up to 60 degrees.

The MoD admitted this year to the Parliament's Committee on Defence that the ''Arjun's firing accuracy is far superior to other two tanks.''

And that that ''MBT Arjun is specifically configured for Indian Army requirements, and the T-90 does not have some of the advanced features of MBT Arjun.''

But the Arjun's makers don't just want acceptance and a token order of 124 tanks.

They want the Arjun to be the backbone of India's 3500 tank fleet, and the comparative trials, they say, will prove the Arjun deserves that.

The MoD is backpedaling. It says the army could accept another 124 tanks of the improved Arjun and perhaps many more, if the army likes the tank.

''We have kept the option of producing another 124 of the better version of the Arjun tank. And when the army uses this tank, God knows, they may just fall in love with it and decide that the entire production line should be Arjuns only,'' said KP Singh, Secretary Defence Production.

The Army's opposition to the Arjun tank is partly the fault of the Arjun team. It took three decades to develop the tank and the generals lost faith in the project.

And today, with the Arjun ready to prove its worth the army seems unwilling to listen.

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070025577&ch=9/9/2007 10:45:00 PM

Just proved that the so called trials was just hogwash.

 

[Bull]

Arjun Tank is now going to under go accelerated usage cum reliability trial (AUCRT) over 5 months and 5000 kms from november 2007

AUCRT is normally an internal test procedure for army after induction of a armored vehicle. It is normally done for the engineering and logistical performance for Army’s self evaluation. But knowing the history of Arjun Tank development and Army’s disposition, this would well mean another assessment exercise. AUCRT trials were carried out on T-90S tanks last summer and its reported that problems have been observed.

Surprisingly Indian Army has canceled the so called “comparative trials” which was never scheduled. In 2005 when last comparative trials were held, Arjun Tank did not fire at all. The reason was the French Sagem gun sights, which was a higher version of the earlier model, was installed due to due to embargo on the earlier supplier. The sights were checked and installed into the Arjun electronics. However in the desert heat of Rajasthan, the sensitive laser range finder did not perform. Target range is an important parameter, required for accurate firing and hence firing could not be done.

Subsequently, the Sagem officials and DRDO worked on the entire electronics and presented it for trials in 2006. The guns performed, however the Army came up with another observation of the higher fuel consumption in Arjun Tank compared to T-72. The Fuel consumption issue was proven wrong during the later trials meant for the purpose. Indian Army refused to bring in a T-72 for comparative fuel consumption trials.

Subsequently Indian Army came up with another observation that water was leaking into Arjun Tank. As per the standard norm, 1 tank in 10 production tank is to be tested for medium fording. However the loophole is that there are no standards mentioned in GSQR for Medium Fording. The problem identified was that Heavy vehicles Factory and Indian Army use different standards for testing T-72 tanks. However, DRDO ran Arjun Tanks 20 minutes in water to demonstrate medium fording.

Now since the CVRDE is calling the Indian Army for the challenge, Indian Army is out to go in for AUCRT. Unfortunately there is no third party watchdog for AUCRT.

It’s now a open fact that the drivers and officers of the Indian Army armoured corps but its induction is held at bay for some reason or the other.

The history is repeating itself. The Vijayanta Tanks came late hence T-72’s were inducted. Now the T-90S have filled in 10 + regiments which Indian Army is converting from T-72’s. Next armoured regiment conversion is scheduled beyond 2015.

India Defence Consultants