Arjun News & Discussions

[ptldM3]

This artical is more or less crap, like i mentioned earlier i spoke to a T-90 tanker and according to him the T-90 had no problems with accuracy, the best part of the artical was when the author stated that the T-90 isn't capable of a shot from 5000M and that the Russians just "boast", well i found a video of a T-90 making a 5000M shot. The shot happens between 3:55-4:11.

The T-90 was evaluated and it had to pass trials, so did the Indians, Algerians, and Turkmenistanies buy a tank that coun't hit shots accurately or from a distance, and would Saudi Arabia be interested in the T-90 if it was such a "dud" if the Saudis do by the T-90 and sources claim they will then that says something about the T-90 esspecially when the Saudis already operate Abrams. The artical posted above is no different than articals that claim the F-22 is garbage.

 

[bumbgola]

T-90S trials in Malaysia

 

[holysaturn]

This artical is more or less crap, like i mentioned earlier i spoke to a T-90 tanker and according to him the T-90 had no problems with accuracy, the best part of the artical was when the author stated that the T-90 isn't capable of a shot from 5000M and that the Russians just "boast", well i found a video of a T-90 making a 5000M shot. The shot happen between 3:55-4:11.

YouTube - T90 & T80 In Action

The T-90 was evaluated and it had to pass trials, so did the Indians, Algerians, and Turkmenistanies buy a tank that coun't hit shots accurately or from a distance, and would Saudi Arabia be interested in the T-90 if it was such a "dud" if the Saudis do by the T-90 and sources claim they will then that says something about the T-90 esspecially when the Saudis already operate Abrams. The artical posted above is no different than articals that claim the F-22 is garbage.

that was a good reply but the video doesnt specify it was 5000m.........but then in the video it was reflecks missile and not a unguided round.......thats the disadvantage of the t-90 it cannot fire at long range without a guided missile(which can be fooled by counter measures while a fspads,heat,du round cannot be fooled) ...its gun,fcs are not capable of firing at targets long ranges.........whilethe arjun with its rifled gun can.here are the details

Google Image Result for http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/feb02/images/mbt1.jpg

 

[ptldM3]

that was a good reply but the video doesnt specify it was 5000m.........

Yes it did, it clearly said 5000m, it takes approximately 16 seconds to hit a target at that range, it took exactly 16 seconds to hit the target, so it was a 5000m shot.

but then in the video it was reflecks missile and not a unguided round.......thats the disadvantage of the t-90 it cannot fire at long range without a guided missile(which can be fooled by counter measures while a fspads,heat,du round cannot be fooled) ...its gun,fcs are not capable of firing at targets long ranges.........whilethe arjun with its rifled gun can.here are the details

If you read you artical carefully you would know that it stated that the T-90 used "Indian ammunition" this is important because the accuracy of ammunition varies drastically depending on the manufacturer be it 125mm rounds or a .22 rounds, i can speak from experience on this one. The India T-90s may have difficulty hitting targets from a distance but this does not necessarily mean it's the guns fault or the FCSs fault but rather it could simply mean that thr tank uses poor quality ammunition. Now to address your statement about the T-90s 125mm gun having poor range, the T-64B was able to hit targets from 2000 meters, so i can imagine the T-90 would have no problems hitting tagets at the same range esspecially when the T-90 uses a 4-section thermal sleeve to prevent the barrel from overheating and a much better fire and control system. If we rule out poor ammunition than the only other problem with the T-90 could be that the fire and control system isn't properly working in the hot Indian climate. The truth is people bend the truth so i would not be suprised if the T-90 is is vary capably of long range hit afterall i will beleive a T-90 tanker over a blogger anyday; moreover, if a few tanks perform poorly does it mean all T-90s have poor long range accuracy? No, poor accuracy could be anything from poor crew training to poor ammunition to poor maintanance.

 

[bumbgola]

i will beleive a T-90 tanker over a blogger anyday

If you are referring to Col (Retd) Ajai Shukla and Broadsword then I must add that he is not just any blogger, he is an ex-tank man himself. More importantly whatever is published on the blog is also published in a widely read daily newspaper Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90 so while what you say may/may not be true it is inappropriate to dismiss his posts as blog-only.

 

[ptldM3]

If you are referring to Col (Retd) Ajai Shukla and Broadsword then I must add that he is not just any blogger, he is an ex-tank man himself. More importantly whatever is published on the blog is also published in a widely read daily newspaper Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90 so while what you say may/may not be true it is inappropriate to dismiss his posts as blog-only.

I know who he is, he is also the same guy that claimed the pak-fa has a rcs of 0.5, how is this possible when the very un-stealthy SU-47 had a RCS of 0.3?

 

[holysaturn]

ok i will put it this way t-90 is a good tank in the russian army......accuracy:not well suited for indian rounds(corrections not possible bcoz of contractual obligations),arjun better with indian rounds............protection :t-90 has no seperate crew compartment,no blow out panels,,,,,arjun has both..........maintanence:t-90 wins hands down..........crew comfort:arjun wins hands down...........industry benefts and foriegn exchange:arjun remains a cut above..........overall arjun suits indian tankmen and the taxpayers better than any t-90 anyday.

 

[bumbgola]

I know who he is, he is also the same guy that claimed the pak-fa has a rcs of 0.5, how is this possible when the very un-stealthy SU-47 had a RCS of 0.3?

Here is the relevant part of his reply to this qs. unashamedly plagiarized from Broadsword: India, Russia close to agreement on next generation fighter

There are no AUTHENTIC figures that I have come across for the RCS of the Rafale and the Eurofighter, only unattributed speculation. But I hear, from people who ought to know, that their RCS is not below 0.5.

This talk about metal golf balls and metal marbles does not impress me ( http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20051125.aspx ). It could be disinformation, sales talk, vendor propaganda, or a mixture of all of them. A platform's real RCS is seldom revealed.

The figure that I have is from an MoD source, who has, in turn, heard it from a Sukhoi designer at KnAAPO. I would not bet my life that the figure is entirely accurate.

Anonymous 08:40
"you need to check your figures on RCS of PAKFA
u are quoting 100 times more. double check. again"

The figure of 0.5 is certainly not that far off the mark.

deep.blue: I agree with you. This bird has a great deal of design change ahead of it and the RCS will almost certainly get a lot better in the future.

 

[flaming arrow]

like i mentioned earlier i spoke to a T-90 tanker and according to him the T-90 had no problems with accuracy,

my dear friend,the accuracy of arjun is better then t-90 at any given day this was well placed the parliamentary table report..also u heard from ur tanker friend that t-90 has no accuracy problem,iam not saying that t-90 is not a good tank but its electronic systems simply gave away in the heat of thar desert just to remind you we had to put an a.c in it so that the thermal imagner can work properly..
yes trials were conducted but as i have mentioned in my earlier post that the purchase of t-90 was not liked by then prime minsiter of india Mr,HD DEWEGODA,kindly read back a few pages of this thread,i have my friends who took part in the trials both operating T-90 and Arjun..i wont say what happened i would just say that you should read what the news comes beacuse if i start telling you where all the T-90 failed against Arjun you will not like it Just like the INDIAN ARMY..
also mind you that IA has been the biggest batter for the T-90 isnt it???
iam sure you have been going through the ARJUN threads reports of failure,that change this change the army tried all make sure they dont land up getting a product having weakness and see all the systems have been hardened and they performed well during the trials outgunning and out running the T-90

NOW READ IS A MUST FOR OUR PAKISTANI FRIENDS :pakistan:

On October 20, 1999 extensive trials of T-80U and T-90 protection from various types of threats were conducted at TsNIIO 643a Testing Grounds. The tests involved firing large amounts of ordnance (including several versions of RPG ATGL, light and heavy ATGMs, and APFSDS rounds) at frontal projections of T-80U and T-90 MBTs both protected with Kontakt-V ERA and stripped of it.


Infantry ATGLs (fired at a distance of 40m)
o RPG-7 (using advanced 105mm grenade PG-7VR with a tandem warhead, pen. 650mm RHA)
o RPG-26 (disposable launcher, pen. >500mm RHA)
o RPG-29 (advanced 105mm launcher, pen. 750mm RHA)
* ATGMs (fired at a distance of 600m)
o Malyutka-2 (pen. >600mm RHA)
o Metis (pen. 460mm RHA)
o Konkurs (pen. 650mm RHA)
o Kornet (pen. >850mm RHA)
* APFSDS (fired from T-80U MBT at a distance of 1,500m, the most likely round is 3BM42)

The trials yielded the following outcome:

* ATGLs
o T-90: RPG-29 produced a total of 3 penetrations.
No other RPG rounds could penetrate even the stripped target.
o T-80U: RPG-29 penetrated 3 times with ERA, all 5 times without ERA.
Of all other grenades, one PG-7VR penetrated the stripped target.
* ATGMs
o T-90: No ATGMs could penetrate the ERA-equipped target. One Kornet ATGM penetrated the stripped {without kontakt-5 ERA} target.
o T-80U: 2 Kornet ATGMs penetrated the ERA-equipped target, all 5 penetrated the stripped target.
No other ATGMs could penetrate.
* APFSDS
o T-90: ERA-equipped target could not be penetrated. Furthermore, after firing the crew entered the vehicle, activated it and was able to execute the firing sequence.
Without ERA, one round penetrated.
o T-80U (data available only for stripped target): One round almost penetrated (3mm hole in the inner lining, no visible equipment damage); two penetrated to 1/2 thickness; one missed the target completely; one hit the gun
T-80U and T-90 Trials 20.10.99

THE ABOVE WAS TO SHOW THAT T-90's armour offes better protection then the most potent tank in armoury i.e T-80 UD

NOW COMPARING ARJUN'S AND T-90's ARMOUR

the basic arjun armour of 1980's, without ERA could defeat the 3BM-42 round. the modern T-90 armour of 1999 (it has not changed since) can't defeat the 3BM42 (which is anyway an obsolete round in today's world) without ERA. one can only wonder how it will fare against modern APFSDS rounds.
The Kanchan Armor | Frontier India - News, Analysis, Opinion

some snippets from trial according to sources

Arjun Vs T-90

Time of the Day: MBT (No.of Targets Assigned) No.of Successful Hits

Before Noon T-90 (11) 9
Noon T-90 (11) 4
Night time T-90 (15) 7

Before Noon Arjun (11) 11
Noon Arjun (11) 10
Night time Arjun (15) 15

(T90 crews were replaced for noon trails and again new set of crews for night trial
Arjun crew remained the same through the trial)

T-90s got around 34% shot on target while on move during the afternoon session
while Arjuns had onlee 1 miss from eleven fired on the move.

TESTING DURING MOVE AND SHOT FIRED

-Both Tanks were to traverse over Sand dunes and wet mud shallow ponds
to reach a Squarish area where a 20x20cm target
was placed, and the Tanks were to fire 3 rounds into that 20x20.
Time started as soon as Tanks started moving.

T90 was slow to climb the Dunes and was slower to reach the Target area,
and the Tank came to complete stop before acquiring and firing.

Arjun was quicker to the Target area and the Crews acquired and fired
while still around the edge of the Target area while still on the move.

this act was deemed as cheating by Arjun crew, and later on this test was nullified.

ARJUN'S SURVIVABILITY AND SOME UNKNOWN FACTS

The Arjun tank uses the indigenously
designed and developed ‘Kanchan’
composite armor which is designed to
provide protection superior to similar
amour on other tanks. The ‘Kanchan’
amour has been successfully tested
against fire from APFSDS, HEAT and
HESH ammunitions.

The integrated fire and explosion
suppression system aboard Arjun is
state-of-the-art technology with infrared
detectors, that can detect and
suppress hydro-carbon fuel/explosion
within 200 milliseconds in the crew
compartment and within 15 seconds in
the engine compartment. Arjun uses the Halon fire extinguishing system,
similar to the one in the Abrams MBT,
which can automatically activate
within 2 milliseconds of either a flash
or a fire. The tank also has protection
against nuclear, biological and
chemical weapons.
However, the specialty of the tank lies
in its battlefield management system
(BMS) which facilitates tactical
command as well as control and
communications between one tank
and the rest of the team. A touch
screen BMS for quick access, and an
integrated Global Positioning System,
enhances the efficiency of the tanks.
Like most tanks in this category, the
Arjun tank also accommodates four
crew members. While a three member
crew with autoloaders could have
increased the rate of fire from the
currently 6-8 rounds/minute, a four
member crew helps the crew to
undertake more maintenance related
work with less fatigue.
Finally, the indigenously developed
hydro-pneumatic suspension provides
excellent crew comfort that prevents
fatigue despite extended runs.
http://ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/1796701917IPCS-Special-Report-23.pdf

 

[KEETARP]

I know who he is, he is also the same guy that claimed the pak-fa has a rcs of 0.5, how is this possible when the very un-stealthy SU-47 had a RCS of 0.3?

Buddy , you must be having access to Paralay and other russain forums.
Whats their take on RCS of FGFA/Pak-FA

Bcoz whatever Literature i read on stealth by Russian scientist's esp ITAE research paper , they focused more on using 3 layered robotic RAM coatings and Ionized selective frequency gas filter for reducing RCS.

I mean shaping and IR- reduction of plume of gases had less attention.

What's you personal opinion on angles and corners of this machine (shaping),
i mean the way people have bashed this machine on this forum that it has huge RCS and even worse than F15SE .( expected bcoz most of them are anti-Russian)
I want Russian point of view on this

 

[RAHUL INDIAN]

T-90 is always a good tank... so no doubt about that....so it doesnt matter if India has already ordered large number of them...IT is good time for India that we have developned a good tank in Arjun...though coz it is dev by India itself so it suits some of the requirements better then T-90 for India specifically in the Desert conditions......

so both are excellent machines....

T-90 was always there and now India has something of its own also in Arjun.....it is to Ajun's credit and the team behind it that it performed liek it did against a well established peer in T-90.....Also Arjun is designed specifically keeping Indian requirements in mind and that it why it is performing so well in the desert conditions....

I am proud that India has developed such a beast of a Tank....

 

[faithfulguy]

I know who he is, he is also the same guy that claimed the pak-fa has a rcs of 0.5, how is this possible when the very un-stealthy SU-47 had a RCS of 0.3?

No worries, Russia can easily modify the t-90 to fit the desert conditions. It needs to if its target toward 3rd world countries.

Also, the quality control of Arjun will start to appear in large numbers as India has poor manufacturing process. It can design a tank but its different than manufacturing them in large numbers. So the T-90 orders will continue once this is exposed.

Unless, India wise up and chooses Abrams

 

[gogbot]

Proud of both our Machines

 

[holysaturn]

No worries, Russia can easily modify the t-90 to fit the desert conditions. It needs to if its target toward 3rd world countries.

Also, the quality control of Arjun will start to appear in large numbers as India has poor manufacturing process. It can design a tank but its different than manufacturing them in large numbers. So the T-90 orders will continue once this is exposed.

Unless, India wise up and chooses Abrams

i appreciate ur confidence to underestimate india but if that is the case then one of ur neighbours(may be even u) wud be driving a poor quality automobile.

 

[bumbgola]

No worries, Russia can easily modify the t-90 to fit the desert conditions. It needs to if its target toward 3rd world countries.

Sure.

Also, the quality control of Arjun will start to appear in large numbers as India has poor manufacturing process. It can design a tank but its different than manufacturing them in large numbers. So the T-90 orders will continue once this is exposed.

124 is a large number. Army is a demanding customer. If and when there is an issue you will be the first to know.

Unless, India wise up and chooses Abrams

Arjun is as good.