Arjun MK-2 tanks facing Smokey driver chamber in latest tests

[MilSpec]

wow,no one gets impressed with these fancy lines,u must know
the onus to prove that drdo has achieved something lies on u,which u for obvious reasons cannot do.so u resort to all these planning and execution lectures.
they are professionals and its their job to plan and execute but its our duty to point out where they have failed.i am specifically saying that psu's cannot compete with private companies.its the trend worldwide except for the communist countries.
even in russia there are lot of psu's that compete with each other(recently absorbed and united under ROSTEC and UAC)
we have all the talented ppl in drdo etc but in the end its a psu and just like a govt doctor,lawyer,teacher............they are not interested enough due to permanent nature of their job and no pressure.they will keep om getting salaries whether they make something or not.
if u dispute this,i am sorry to say,we don't need to talk further and u can keep on glorifying drdo

i will of course avail my freedom of expression too

You can huff and puff all day, be my guest, All I am trying to do is get an ounce of intellectual integrity where the criticism needs to be constructive and not a mudslinging feature which most of your posts resonate...

The fact that one of the most mammoth tasks of technology transfers in history of Indian manufacturing community of SU30MKI is passable a mediocre to you, should be a sobering influence for you in retrospect with a clearer perspective, perhaps...

You have vile things to say about DRDO's planning, which argument I agree has good merit to it, but you drag every thing from BEL to GTRE in a slash of mind numbing incoherence.... Yes sure I can proclaim OFB products are crap, But have you wondered why, what are you going to improve, what metrics are you measuring or not perhaps. If you dont have a good prognosis what for f*cks sake are you going to cure.

thats the reason on my first reply, i asked you, what planning shortfalls are in question here, there is scope to venture in to each and every aspect of the product, that includes material, electronics suites, Armor, , configuration, subsystems like suspension, drivetrain, engine, design.. but pick one and then discuss... this retardish posts of OFB is bad, BEL is bad, HAL is bad if growing old pretty soon, every post ending in we need private player and that is a mother of all fixes starts loosing ground without any meaningful context.... but that is just me, there is a good amount of subscribers to candyfloss commentators....

 

[HariPrasad]

Pl provide the Link that it is Just 5% of total value.

Do you know how much EW suit and Avionics cost in a plane? How much Spectra cost out of Rafale?

EW suit and avionics costs 1/3 to 40% amount of the Plane means 33 to 40% even 1/3 of that is more than 10%.

 

[forcetrip]

Its not a huge deal.. Stuff gets worked around with easy fixes to take care of it (smokey cockpit). The problem is quality of labor and indigenous critical components. Assembling things is not a feat. All countries need to make their own critical components even if you have to assemble it in a third country. Example being, iPhones assembled/manufactured in China does not mean its a chinese product.

 

[he-man]

You can huff and puff all day, be my guest, All I am trying to do is get an ounce of intellectual integrity where the criticism needs to be constructive and not a mudslinging feature which most of your posts resonate...

The fact that one of the most mammoth tasks of technology transfers in history of Indian manufacturing community of SU30MKI is passable a mediocre to you, should be a sobering influence for you in retrospect with a clearer perspective, perhaps...

You have vile things to say about DRDO's planning, which has good merit to it, but you drag every thing from BEL to GTRE in a slash of mind numbing incoherence.... Yes sure I can proclaim OFB products are crap, But have you wondered why, what are you going to improve, what metrics are you measuring or not perhaps. If you dont have a good prognosis what for f*cks sake are you going to cure.

thats the reason on my first reply, i asked you, what planning shortfalls are in question here, there is scope to venture in to each and every aspect of the product, that includes material, electronics suites, Armor, , configuration, subsystems like suspension, drivetrain, engine, design.. but pick one and then discuss... this retardish posts of OFB is bad, BEL is bad, HAL is bad if growing old pretty soon, every post ending in we need private player and that is a mother of all fixes starts loosing ground without any meaningful context.... but that is just me, there is a good amount of subscribers to candyfloss commentators....

i believe there are lot of drdo and hal employees wasting their time here.
ur thinking pretty much matches that of our great defence minister ak antony who was very smart like u but ultimately didn't take a single good step.
yes,private player is indeed the mother of all fixes and sooner u realize this the better.
i can make 100 claims why these psu's suck and u won't have 1 argument in their favour.
the most successful arm of drdo is missiles,right??
just compare the timelines and ranges and deployement times of theirs and ours.
the rest of the divisions are not even worth mentioning.thats how bad their performance has been.

but funny how u keep on defending drdo??on what basis may i ask you??

 

[indiatester]

man ur analogy is faulty
i don't want 100% but would expect something like even 50%
as already shown by me in previous post we are not even near 50%

Why 50%?

 

[he-man]

Why 50%?

read the 4 articles i posted earlier

 

[MilSpec]

i believe there are lot of drdo and hal employees wasting their time here.
ur thinking pretty much matches that of our great defence minister ak antony who was very smart like u but ultimately didn't take a single good step.
yes,private player is indeed the mother of all fixes and sooner u realize this the better.
i can make 100 claims why these psu's suck and u won't have 1 argument in their favour.
the most successful arm of drdo is missiles,right??
just compare the timelines and ranges and deployement times of theirs and ours.
the rest of the divisions are not even worth mentioning.thats how bad their performance has been.

but funny how u keep on defending drdo??on what basis may i ask you??

Refrain from analyzing my intellect, thats not in question here , the crux of the matter is Arjun MBT, What did DRDO exactly fumble in the planning stages as you have mentioned in the first post that i replied to. Should DRDO or which ever lab designed it should have gone through a different method...


My presumption is that Phase gate approach was used for planning at-least the Mk2 upgrades, is your contention different methodology be used to accomplish MoD deliverables.

Should Indigestion of the foreign content be on the same Phase approaches,

Should there be open bids of development for sub systems deliverable with private players

Should there be allotted capital for vendor development, how much,

Should there be cross platform developmental modules for system modelling and simulations

should there be extensive infrastructural setup for material development/ or should be sourced from international proven markets

should there be formulated participation of foreign program partners, if yes what percentage

should there be full access to private entities to key technologies

Should the Army alone decide the deliverable for the projects

Should there be a secondary review for strategic overview of the product

Should there be consolidation of value vs performance, if yes how much

Should all of this be included in the scope,

were all of the above included in Phases of planning, if not what indicates that, what would be value added activities, how can we learn to make this better- I would love to discuss on as such "constructive criticism"

btw am not defending DRDO, I am just asking a for a better argument.... thats it

 

[he-man]

Refrain from analyzing my intellect, thats not in question here , the crux of the matter is Arjun MBT, What did DRDO exactly fumble in the planning stages as you have mentioned in the first post that i replied to. Should DRDO or which ever lab designed it should have gone through a different method...


My presumption is that Phase gate approach was used for planning at-least the Mk2 upgrades, is your contention different methodology be used to accomplish MoD deliverables.

Should Indigestion of the foreign content be on the same Phase approaches,

Should there be open bids of development for sub systems deliverable with private players

Should there be allotted capital for vendor development, how much,

Should there be cross platform developmental modules for system modelling and simulations

should there be extensive infrastructural setup for material development/ or should be sourced from international proven markets

should there be formulated participation of foreign program partners, if yes what percentage

should there be full access to private entities to key technologies

Should the Army alone decide the deliverable for the projects

Should there be a secondary review for strategic overview of the product

Should there be consolidation of value vs performance, if yes how much

Should all of this be included in the scope,

were all of the above included in Phases of planning, if not what indicates that, what would be value added activities, how can we learn to make this better- I would love to discuss on as such "constructive criticism"

btw am not defending DRDO, I am just asking a for a better argument.... thats it

yes and i will not shy away,although i must compliment ur civil way
1)there must be open bids for indivisual componrnts from scratch,once we develop the technology,we can modify it to fit anywhere.this is the most important thing and can be implemented quite easily
personally i would favour that the drdo be sold step by step.or govt can provide the infrastructure of drdo to private players too.that need to be worked out
2)on foreign players,i am not in favour of more than 25% at max as if lm or boeing come here and do jv with our companies we will never learn and will manufacture under tot only.so big no here
3)infrastructure development is the prerogrative of the player given the contract but yes those given contracts should be given access to drdo faciities as they won't be doing much if contracts are given to privat parties

drdo recruitement must slow simultaneously with giving contracts to private players so that in the end these facilities are utilized by the private players,at least in initial stages
4)no army alone should not decide but a committee must be formed so that there are many voices and chances of corruption is reduced but ultimately it depends on pp indivisually,we can never be 100% sure
5)jv should be set up,no problem with that really
6)on value vs performance in the initial years we will have to compromise performance to a bit as there is a learning phase too just like china did starting from the basics.for example we can start with pakfa electronics
a)assemble a team from private industry to write software code for pakfa.the team will have a fixed salary and
tenure and will remain committed till the project is over
b)give contract to a private player for mission computers of pakfa using cutting edge tech which we won't
get actually as we cannot fabricate our chips and foreign chips(western) are security risk.i know of ddo aditya
but its pretty mediocre.so this won't happen
c)mfd manufacture -in my opinion iai-elbit partnership is good enough even though fully indian contribution
was desirable
specifically on arjun----------------
we must develop important subsystems of that and not just assemble it.same principle of using private players could be followed as i mentioned earlier

 

[indiatester]

read the 4 articles i posted earlier

I did. I don't get why you say atleast 50%. Is there a component that cannot be absolutely second sourced. If so, I'd b concerned. But if all those components can be procured as off the shelf, why insist on 50%.

 

[he-man]

I did. I don't get why you say atleast 50%. Is there a component that cannot be absolutely second sourced. If so, I'd b concerned. But if all those components can be procured as off the shelf, why insist on 50%.

everything is connected dude
if we can produce that stuff
1)it will be cheaper
2)faster delivery
3)no fear of sanctions
most importantly--------------------it will lead to industrialisation and ultimately job creation
this is very very important as we cannot rely on our IT industry for ever.a true strength of a nation is from its industrial might only.
remember the kargil war when our ammunition was low and we had to import stuff from france and israel........that could cost us a war if adversary is big like china.
so there is no substitute for in house production

 

[MilSpec]

yes and i will not shy away,although i must compliment ur civil way
1)there must be open bids for indivisual componrnts from scratch,once we develop the technology,we can modify it to fit anywhere.this is the most important thing and can be implemented quite easily
personally i would favour that the drdo be sold step by step.or govt can provide the infrastructure of drdo to private players too.that need to be worked out
2)on foreign players,ARJUNa committee must be formed so that there are many voices and chances of corruption is reduced but ultimately it depends on pp indivisually,we can never be 100% sure
5)jv should be set up,no problem with that really
6)on value vs performance in the initial years we will have to compromise performance to a bit as there is a learning phase too just like china did starting from the basics.for example we can start with pakfa electronics
a)assemble a team from private industry to write software code for pakfa.the team will have a fixed salary and
tenure and will remain committed till the project is over
b)give contract to a private player for mission computers of pakfa using cutting edge tech which we won't
get actually as we cannot fabricate our chips and foreign chips(western) are security risk.i know of ddo aditya
but its pretty mediocre.so this won't happen
c)mfd manufacture -in my opinion iai-elbit partnership is good enough even though fully indian contribution
was desirable
specifically on arjun----------------
we must develop important subsystems of that and not just assemble it.same principle of using private players could be followed as i mentioned earlier

Good effort. The points I mentioned all were relevant only to Arjun as is the thread... not pakfa, and organisational structure of indian MOD

Now try the same points just with Arjun, the matter at hand, Start out with DMAIC, and then DFMEA for re engineering , then go to Gate 1 deliverables for for mk2 upgrades, then you have solid points on contention for serious discussion, you will see the crux of shortfalls and the reason behind it.

 

[he-man]

Good effort. The points I mentioned all were relevant only to Arjun as is the thread... not pakfa, and organisational structure of indian MOD

Now try the same points just with Arjun, the matter at hand, Start out with DMAIC, and then DFMEA for re engineering , then go to Gate 1 deliverables for for mk2 upgrades, then you have solid points on contention for serious discussion, you will see the crux of shortfalls and the reason behind it.

sure i will try to do some research on arjun before making some claims
i used pakfa as its a clean slate for us tight now and can become the pilot project for what i am suggesting

 

[indiatester]

everything is connected dude
if we can produce that stuff
1)it will be cheaper
2)faster delivery
3)no fear of sanctions
most importantly--------------------it will lead to industrialisation and ultimately job creation
this is very very important as we cannot rely on our IT industry for ever.a true strength of a nation is from its industrial might only.
remember the kargil war when our ammunition was low and we had to import stuff from france and israel........that could cost us a war if adversary is big like china.
so there is no substitute for in house production

Fair enough.
Now you already know that we don't have all the components. In this scenario, what will you do.
1) Start ecosystem for building the components first. Design and build the tank later
2) Design and build tank fast. Start ecosystem for build the components later.
3) Any of your ideas here.

One thing you must remember is that time to market is a critical thing. I agree that Arjun was not great with its time to market.
You make a better ecosystem if you start with the whole product development instead of concentrating on larger indigenous participation.

Take it from a person who has been building products in India, the knowledge and confidence you get in building a system is far greater than working on a single component (yes, I have done that too).

 

[he-man]

Fair enough.
Now you already know that we don't have all the components. In this scenario, what will you do.
1) Start ecosystem for building the components first. Design and build the tank later
2) Design and build tank fast. Start ecosystem for build the components later.
3) Any of your ideas here.

One thing you must remember is that time to market is a critical thing. I agree that Arjun was not great with its time to market.
You make a better ecosystem if you start with the whole product development instead of concentrating on larger indigenous participation.
yes thats why i posted in reply to sandy regarding pakfa development and how we should ideally tread towards it bit by bit
pls read that
Take it from a person who has been building products in India, the knowledge and confidence you get in building a system is far greater than working on a single component (yes, I have done that too).

 

[GURU DUTT]

well two things
1. the arjun MK1 & MK2 are justtest beds for the main "son of arjun"...DRDO, ARDE & MODS is still not decided yet when to give a go ahead to that some people also know it as FMBT and some think its scrapped al together but things are going on

2. The beurocracy of India works in its own interests and takes its own sweet time and defence industries are the last cash cows for them so they dont want to give the hold over it + the private palyers very well know how things work with govt departements and the paymnets & above all all corrupt exicse and TAX dept are just horrible to say + private palyers want things to be tranparent and almost zero pinpricing by the beurocracy

3. there are huge profits to be made and as they say there is no buisness like war ..same holds for DRDO and MOD

4. there are thousands of manufacturers of electronicks , metallurgy , gears , fastners , die casters and spcialised items like semi conducdoctors and other allied products which if given a chance and payments at right time can owtdo even countries like USA and even china but but but

any way things might change if NDA comes to power again and it was onli NDA govt that finalised the details of LCA & Arjun and specs for MKI they were the ones who went for Barak missiles(which was sabotaged by greedi congress stooge admiral) and INS Vikrmaditya (which again was dragged and cost were doubled deu to cut for UPA and babus) and Hawk trainers(again same old story) & re callibration of arty guns by slotam of isreal .... my personal request Vote for NDA again