Arjun Mark II : An Israeli View [ Must Read ]

[JonAsad]

is it necessary to have just one dedicated mbt,if yes then why? And if not,then your question has been answered......:wink:

never mind!!

 

[DeathGod]

I am quite skeptical about these claims ... Sounds too good to be true...

1.For starters , I dont expect any nation , be it India or anyone else to develop their 1st tank and end up making it better than a proven platform like T-90.

2. How is it possible that India without any knowledge of making armors comes up with Kanchan whom many claim is better than the Chobam on British Challenger. Not a single Challenger has been destoryed in Iraq or Afg, which bores testimony to its armor. The british have been developing tanks since WW-1. Dont know how valid the claim of Kanchan being better than Chobam will ring true. For me , it maybe possible but not probable.

3. Also , dont think the argument " We took help from foreign players and it incorporates the best technologies " stands true for me... The big question is that why will one nation share its most cutting edge technology with another. What usually a country will do is to provide some kind of expertise on a technology that maybe latest now but will be soon replaced by a new one that they are developing.

4. AFAIK the gun is an imported one , Guess its the Rheinmetal 120 mm rifled one , which definitely is the best in the league. Not sure if we have the capability to produce the same in India yet. Please let me know if its the case. Will make my day.

5. Night Vision and IR systems in the tank are hardly battle proven and as we all know that real test of any system ( even IT softwares ) is when they are fielded. AFAIK in the desert trials there wasnt any night time fighting.

6. Not sure about the engine too. Heard it breaks down every now and then , which might not be surprising given our failed attempts with Kaveri and the like.(Agree that Kaveri is a Jet engine while Arjun's is most probably a diesel-turbine engine but still dont think the engine manufacturing capabilities are mature)

I dont have any link or proof or any evidence to support all this and I might well be wrong in everything I have written but its just what I have been able to deduce with my limited knowledge and insight.

Welcome everyone to disprove me and provide reliable links.

Lastly , as mentioned earlier... The real test will be on the battlefield. We should maybe deploy some in Iraq and see for itself

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

We've all heard that but what are it's armour specs in RHA of the Kanchan?Also the DRDO guys never told us what are the penetration capabilities of the Israeli 125mm APFDS rounds is.I think we use the M711 Tungsten APFDS round.It has a penetration value of 560mm RHA at 2km.

IFV?It was only used on the Abhay which was experimental.

Bro,I used wiki to gather information on the Kanchan armour.So,you might be aware that the RHA specifics are a closely guarded secret.I also used the DRDO website but couldn't find appropriate answers!!!

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

I am quite skeptical about these claims ... Sounds too good to be true...

1.For starters , I dont expect any nation , be it India or anyone else to develop their 1st tank and end up making it better than a proven platform like T-90.

2. How is it possible that India without any knowledge of making armors comes up with Kanchan whom many claim is better than the Chobam on British Challenger. Not a single Challenger has been destoryed in Iraq or Afg, which bores testimony to its armor. The british have been developing tanks since WW-1. Dont know how valid the claim of Kanchan being better than Chobam will ring true. For me , it maybe possible but not probable.

3. Also , dont think the argument " We took help from foreign players and it incorporates the best technologies " stands true for me... The big question is that why will one nation share its most cutting edge technology with another. What usually a country will do is to provide some kind of expertise on a technology that maybe latest now but will be soon replaced by a new one that they are developing.

4. AFAIK the gun is an imported one , Guess its the Rheinmetal 120 mm rifled one , which definitely is the best in the league. Not sure if we have the capability to produce the same in India yet. Please let me know if its the case. Will make my day.

5. Night Vision and IR systems in the tank are hardly battle proven and as we all know that real test of any system ( even IT softwares ) is when they are fielded. AFAIK in the desert trials there wasnt any night time fighting.

6. Not sure about the engine too. Heard it breaks down every now and then , which might not be surprising given our failed attempts with Kaveri and the like.(Agree that Kaveri is a Jet engine while Arjun's is most probably a diesel-turbine engine but still dont think the engine manufacturing capabilities are mature)

I dont have any link or proof or any evidence to support all this and I might well be wrong in everything I have written but its just what I have been able to deduce with my limited knowledge and insight.

Welcome everyone to disprove me and provide reliable links.

Lastly , as mentioned earlier... The real test will be on the battlefield. We should maybe deploy some in Iraq and see for itself

The engine is German,not Indian!!!It had issues with the mating of transmission but it is sorted out.Also night trials were held as Army is not made up of D***s to wait for 30 years and induct a night blind tank.The rifled gun and turret is completely ours and not German...The armour is rumoured to be better than the British Chobam,but considering the fact that it can withstand a direct hit from a T-90 it can be considered SAFE for combat duty.Please go through appropriate threads to unearth more information..............Also the T-90 is a good tank but it is not the ultimate.Also 30 years of research by dedicated(?) scientists is now the Arjun!!!!The fact that it is in active service proves my point.

 

[Kinetic]

I am quite skeptical about these claims ... Sounds too good to be true...

All of your thoughts are so called, "how can India do that"!!!!! lol

1.For starters , I dont expect any nation , be it India or anyone else to develop their 1st tank and end up making it better than a proven platform like T-90.

Many speculated that but comparative trials shows that T-90S is no match for Arjun. What makes T-90S proven but not Arjun?

2. How is it possible that India without any knowledge of making armors comes up with Kanchan whom many claim is better than the Chobam on British Challenger. Not a single Challenger has been destoryed in Iraq or Afg, which bores testimony to its armor. The british have been developing tanks since WW-1. Dont know how valid the claim of Kanchan being better than Chobam will ring true. For me , it maybe possible but not probable.

Because Kanchan has done well in trials, thats not probable but proven.

3. Also , dont think the argument " We took help from foreign players and it incorporates the best technologies " stands true for me... The big question is that why will one nation share its most cutting edge technology with another. What usually a country will do is to provide some kind of expertise on a technology that maybe latest now but will be soon replaced by a new one that they are developing.

No one claimed foreign systems make Arjun capable. So its BS.

4. AFAIK the gun is an imported one , Guess its the Rheinmetal 120 mm rifled one , which definitely is the best in the league. Not sure if we have the capability to produce the same in India yet. Please let me know if its the case. Will make my day.

Nope, thats a total lie. The gun is developed in house by DRDO. Where did you got the info that the gun is from Rheinmetal?

5. Night Vision and IR systems in the tank are hardly battle proven and as we all know that real test of any system ( even IT softwares ) is when they are fielded. AFAIK in the desert trials there wasnt any night time fighting.

lol Your T-90S's night vision and IR systems failed repeatedly in hot condition of desert but Arjun have no such problem. If there have been a night fighting during the trial than T-90S would have done much worse than Arjun.

6. Not sure about the engine too. Heard it breaks down every now and then , which might not be surprising given our failed attempts with Kaveri and the like.(Agree that Kaveri is a Jet engine while Arjun's is most probably a diesel-turbine engine but still dont think the engine manufacturing capabilities are mature)

lol Another lie! Where did you heard that the engine broke down now and then? The engine is from MTU, same used in Leopard-2. Kaveri has completed high altitude tests successfully.

I dont have any link or proof or any evidence to support all this and I might well be wrong in everything I have written but its just what I have been able to deduce with my limited knowledge and insight.

Thats the only part you have said truth, unless imagination in rests.

Welcome everyone to disprove me and provide reliable links.

A simple google will give you lots of info. Start with these...

Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine

Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90

Lastly , as mentioned earlier... The real test will be on the battlefield. We should maybe deploy some in Iraq and see for itself

Arjun have been deployed in the deserts of Rajasthan. They have proved well there.

In your words to make a weapons 'battle proven' we may need to attack some country!!!!

 

[500]

Pakistan Army Refused M1 Abrahams , you could tell the level of our expectations from a tank such as Al Khalid. Army would never mass produce a tank which never met operational requirements and proved itself in the battlefield.

As Abingdonboy noted Abrams is 3 times more expensive to prosecute and about same times more expensive to maintain.

Israelis have a history of exaggerating their hardware , i mean let me ask if Arjun is better than merkava in the mind of our little Israeli , why doesn't israeli military buy this super dooper Tank to replace their merkava which is now considered to be a failure ?

1) That guy was talking about some components of Arjun. Today we live in global world so its very normal to share successful components with each other. Even US Abrams has German gun, British armor and Canadian FCS.
2) I never heard any expert calling Merkava a failure, on contrary most experts say it's one of the best tanks in the world. While Hezbollah braged about their victories in 2006 war, they did not fire a single bullet towards Israel since then. Seems they are not eager to meet Merkava once again.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Just to effectively summarise, trying to clear up and shut up any doubts:

- The Arjun is a very capable and advanced tank incoperating some of the best technology from all over the world (sights, engine etc) that has just not had time to prove itself yet.
- The reason it is being inducted in such small numbers is NOT due to lack of capability on its part but rather a combination of reasons: (1) the Army probably believing the Arjun would never fully materialise into the formidable platform it has done sought to fill the gap by buying 3000+ T-90s tanks from Russia. (2) As a result of this the infrastructure and tactics were built around this platform (T-90s) which meant that by the time the Arjun came to fruition the groundwork had already den put in place for the T-90 which was uncompatible with the Arjun (I.e Tank carriers, rail roads, Portable bridges, refuelling systems etc) so whilst a more capable machine the Arjun has caught little favour with the Army's top brass because they have already committed themselves to a HUGE T-90 induction.

-There are some excelant and groundbreaking INDIAN technologies on the Arjun such as the hydraulic systems ,reactive armour etc
- Most of thenabove issues will mostly be resolved by the induction of the Arjun Mk ll because not only will it be even MORE advanced but it will be replacing the T-72 which are in use in large numbers as such the Arjun will be inducted in large numbers to replace Thame and eventually the T-90s.


In short the Arjun has been disadvantaged by a lack of foresight, funding and mandate but through it all has come out a formidable and effective system, comparable to any in the Western world, with much room for further advancements (Mk ll) and beyond.

 

[EjazR]

Without a credible source this will justbe tall claims. A respected defence magazine like or something similar would be much better than some random guy claming all this inside knowledge. And if a person who is working on the project is leaking such info on forums, then he should be prosecuted for leaking state secrets. Its plain stupid.

I would like for this to be true, but without a credible source, it has to be discounted.

2) I never heard any expert calling Merkava a failure, on contrary most experts say it's one of the best tanks in the world. While Hezbollah braged about their victories in 2006 war, they did not fire a single bullet towards Israel since then. Seems they are not eager to meet Merkava once again.

Offtopic but it was the Israeli govt. and IDF that considered the 2006 lebanon war as a failure
Former IDF chiefs trade barbs over failures in Second Lebanon War - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
Lebanon war a failure for Israel: report - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
How Israel Bungled the Second Lebanon War :: Middle East Quarterly

 

[DeathGod]

1.All of your thoughts are so called, "how can India do that"!!!!! lol

Firstly , every new system , no matter whos developed it needs to face criticism. More questions are asked when you have a dud credibility like the DRDO. Not trying to belittle anything but guess DRDO's efficiency or may I say inefficiency is legendary ( as are many other things in our country)

Secondly , I clearly mentioned that its not about India , its about any other organisation/country who is developing a new (from the scratch) system and doesnt have anywhere near the credentials of producing the basic system required for the same.

Many speculated that but comparative trials shows that T-90S is no match for Arjun. What makes T-90S proven but not Arjun?

Do you really beleive that one test (in controlled and simulated environment) which may and I insist may have proven Arjun superior (in some areas alone) can make it better than T-90 which btw have been used by Russia in a war with Chechens.

Because Kanchan has done well in trials, thats not probable but proven.

Kanchan may have proven itself , but when one claims it to be better than chobham then its laughable. Just read up internet with the service history of Challenger in Iraq and you will understand what I am talking about.

No one claimed foreign systems make Arjun capable. So its BS.

Are you claiming that Arjun doesnt incorporate foreign systems from Israel which are very important for functioning of tank? Or are you claiming that those systems are top of the line ? ( As I understand a good tank will need top of the line systems to be comparable to other good tanks like M1A and Challenger)

Nope, thats a total lie. The gun is developed in house by DRDO. Where did you got the info that the gun is from Rheinmetal?

Good for us. Care to provide a link to the factory where it is being developed. Wonder what has taken us so long to create an artillery peice. As I understand one needs to develop an artillery gun first and then move on to a tank gun (seems logical progression , if you see tech charts of all major militaries then this is the way they have developed).

lol Your T-90S's night vision and IR systems failed repeatedly in hot condition of desert but Arjun have no such problem. If there have been a night fighting during the trial than T-90S would have done much worse than Arjun.

As you said T-90S NV & IR failed in hot conditions of desert , so lets not generalize that T-90 will do much worse than Arjun in all theatres.

lol Another lie! Where did you heard that the engine broke down now and then? The engine is from MTU, same used in Leopard-2. Kaveri has completed high altitude tests successfully.

Read up wiki for engine breakdowns. Agree that MTU is being used , and I hope you would appreciate it has been developed for the cold and plains of Germany and not for the sands of Thar. The lesser we talk about Kaveri the better it is.

Thats the only part you have said truth, unless imagination in rests.

A simple google will give you lots of info. Start with these...

Thanks for the advice and the links.

Arjun have been deployed in the deserts of Rajasthan. They have proved well there.
In your words to make a weapons 'battle proven' we may need to attack some country!!!!

UN peace-keeping missions , active excercises with other countries maybe some possible avenues we can explore.

 

[ganimi kawa]

Just to effectively summarise, trying to clear up and shut up any doubts:

- The Arjun is a very capable and advanced tank incoperating some of the best technology from all over the world (sights, engine etc) that has just not had time to prove itself yet.
- The reason it is being inducted in such small numbers is NOT due to lack of capability on its part but rather a combination of reasons: (1) the Army probably believing the Arjun would never fully materialise into the formidable platform it has done sought to fill the gap by buying 3000+ T-90s tanks from Russia. (2) As a result of this the infrastructure and tactics were built around this platform (T-90s) which meant that by the time the Arjun came to fruition the groundwork had already den put in place for the T-90 which was uncompatible with the Arjun (I.e Tank carriers, rail roads, Portable bridges, refuelling systems etc) so whilst a more capable machine the Arjun has caught little favour with the Army's top brass because they have already committed themselves to a HUGE T-90 induction.

-There are some excelant and groundbreaking INDIAN technologies on the Arjun such as the hydraulic systems ,reactive armour etc
- Most of thenabove issues will mostly be resolved by the induction of the Arjun Mk ll because not only will it be even MORE advanced but it will be replacing the T-72 which are in use in large numbers as such the Arjun will be inducted in large numbers to replace Thame and eventually the T-90s.


In short the Arjun has been disadvantaged by a lack of foresight, funding and mandate but through it all has come out a formidable and effective system, comparable to any in the Western world, with much room for further advancements (Mk ll) and beyond.

A very precise and informative post, you have hit the nail on it's head! Thanks, Abingdonboy!

 

[shree835]

only fan boys actually believe in these crap` if Arjun is that good why india ordered more than 250 of T-90s?? its so surprising that so many people actually buy this article. all we looking for is a creditable source, reading through the whole artile i dont see any but sheer 'personal' ideas.

Good Thing you raised...

I have couple of question...Please help me to get the answer...

1. If JF 17 is formidable aircraft as Chinese and say...Why it is not inducted into Chinese Air Force...??
2. If Al- Khalid is formidable Tank as Chinese and say...Why it is not inducted into Chinese Army...??
3. If J10 and other Chinese Aircraft is that much good ...then why China is Very Much Interested into Su -30 Family Aircraft from Russia.

Etc.

Please Answer me.

What I understood... end of the day it is all Crap China Maal.

 

[Whiplash]

^Stupid post.
1: They dont need it. JF17 is cheap for countries with lower budgets.
2:Google mbt 2000/Type 90II
3:So a nation can't have two aircraft of different types?
I'm not pro china or pakistan. Just stop flaming. This forum is beginning to go to the dogs because of fanboys.

 

[shree835]

ArjunK is better than AL-Khalid like LCA is better than JF-17.

Yes dude, very true...China Maal is always crap... Just throw these craps ASAP.

 

[GLOBAL HAWK]

Chill man
Its just a view
Not a mandate or a fact finding committee result

 

[Firemaster]

welcome back XiNiX