Arjun Mark II : An Israeli View [ Must Read ]

[ironman]

Thats all fine and dandy..

But if the tweak works.. and costs 1/10th of a scratch project.. and still has room for growth..
whats the smarter move?

You have given 50 years for US and now going to give another 50 years to China.. Thats the difference.

 

[Vibs]

Thats all fine and dandy..

But if the tweak works.. and costs 1/10th of a scratch project.. and still has room for growth..
whats the smarter move?

Makes sense. Should've been done by India earlier. They are doing it now with FGFA.
But right now Arjun has already been built and modifying the base model to a more advanced one would take lesser time. Arjun MBT does outperform T-90's on certain parameters and Mk2 is said to have missile launching capabilities. Potentially an FMBT based on the base model of Arjun would be cheaper than T-90's.
Isn't that what you would do with the Al Khalid's eventually?

 

[SQ8]

You have given 50 years for US and now going to give another 50 years to China.. Thats the difference.

I dont care for diplomatic relations or the like.
I asked you a straight forward question.. not tangents in R&D relationships.

part of my work is on the AK.. Havent seen any Chinese roaming around this project for a while. perhaps you need to know more about the Pakistani r&D sector.

 

[Omega007]

I dont care for diplomatic relations or the like.
I asked you a straight forward question.. not tangents in R&D relationships.

part of my work is on the AK.. Havent seen any Chinese roaming around this project for a while. perhaps you need to know more about the Pakistani r&D sector.

Yes we should no more but how??It's wraped in secrecy just like any other country.Can disclose something??

 

[IND151]

Makes sense. Should've been done by India earlier. They are doing it now with FGFA.
But right now Arjun has already been built and modifying the base model to a more advanced one would take lesser time. Arjun MBT does outperform T-90's on certain parameters and Mk2 is said to have missile launching capabilities. Potentially an FMBT based on the base model of Arjun would be cheaper than T-90's.
Isn't that what you would do with the Al Khalid's eventually?

Arjun Mk 1 can also fire ATGM.

i think F MBT should be = chassis of Arjun + turret of black eagle + 120 MM L52 smooth bore gun.

 

[Omega007]

Arjun Mk 1 can also fire ATGM.

i think F MBT should be = chassis of Arjun + turret of black eagle + 120 MM L52 smooth bore gun.

For FMBT DRDO should use a 120mm L55 or even a L60 smoothbore gun with an unmanned turret.Thus the weight can be reduced by 6-8 ton without degrading the armor.Actually the Kanchan lightweight armor is the best thing in Arjun tanks.
REGARDS....

 

[Omega007]

If it is from 2001, the first batch of T-90 arrived in India is November 2001.. thats why I doubted... anyhow thanks for the information.

Sorry,my bad.You were right.The google picture is from 2003,not 2001.The armor was tested against newly developed ARDE mk2 125mm FSAPDS T rounds from a 2A46M3 L52 smoothbore gun at point blanck range.

 

[ptltejas]

For FMBT DRDO should use a 120mm L55 or even a L60 smoothbore gun with an unmanned turret.Thus the weight can be reduced by 6-8 ton without degrading the armor.Actually the Kanchan lightweight armor is the best thing in Arjun tanks.
REGARDS....

why smoothbore sir. and not revolving. if i m not mistaken unrevolved barrel cant fire HESH Rounds.
including mark 2 have 1500 horsepower engine(any info on such?)

 

[SQ8]

Yes we should no more but how??It's wraped in secrecy just like any other country.Can disclose something??

Exactly..
So unless you know the actual ground realities, one cannot comment.
However as for disclosure.. some of us disclose what is open knowledge in most circles.

So when it comes to the question of how Chinese was the Ak.. and how Chinese is it now.. the answer is 80% before.. and 10% now.
None of the electronics in the AK are now Chinese.. all are manufactured locally from components imported from various sources.(even INDIA!!). Much like the Arjun...
So whilst the basic tank design philosophy is from a Type-69(itself a hodgepodge of the T-54,T-64 and T-72 tank)..the AK is not a Chinese tank at all.
The idea of mine is not to compare, but rather clear up the need to bring in the argument of indigenous design as an excuse for superiority.
That is not.. and should NEVER be a criteria in comparing any equipment as far as performance is concerned.
Where that factors in is logistics and procurement.

Back to the Arjun..
What happened to the rumored UAV that was to go along with the command variant? Heard a lot of talk on it on BR once.

 

[Vibs]

Exactly..
So unless you know the actual ground realities, one cannot comment.
However as for disclosure.. some of us disclose what is open knowledge in most circles.

So when it comes to the question of how Chinese was the Ak.. and how Chinese is it now.. the answer is 80% before.. and 10% now.
None of the electronics in the AK are now Chinese.. all are manufactured locally from components imported from various sources.(even INDIA!!). Much like the Arjun...
So whilst the basic tank design philosophy is from a Type-69(itself a hodgepodge of the T-54,T-64 and T-72 tank)..the AK is not a Chinese tank at all.
The idea of mine is not to compare, but rather clear up the need to bring in the argument of indigenous design as an excuse for superiority.
That is not.. and should NEVER be a criteria in comparing any equipment as far as performance is concerned.
Where that factors in is logistics and procurement.

Back to the Arjun..
What happened to the rumored UAV that was to go along with the command variant? Heard a lot of talk on it on BR once.

Indian parts in Al Khalid???
Arjun Mk II is supposed to have Battle Field Management System (BFMS) that allows it to have a networked web with UAV or heli's to get realtime battle field information.
Practicality of this sort of network was said to have been tested during Operation Vijayee Bhava although a lot of T 90's and T 72's were involved in it. No concrete details though.

 

[Omega007]

why smoothbore sir. and not revolving. if i m not mistaken unrevolved barrel cant fire HESH Rounds.
including mark 2 have 1500 horsepower engine(any info on such?)

Smooth bore guns has greater barrel life.That's why I told that.But yeah,they can't fire HESH rounds which are extremely effective against concrete pill boxes,that are extencively used by both india and pakistan.

 

[ironman]

I dont care for diplomatic relations or the like.
I asked you a straight forward question.. not tangents in R&D relationships.

part of my work is on the AK.. Havent seen any Chinese roaming around this project for a while. perhaps you need to know more about the Pakistani r&D sector.

The question is not how much Chinese content included in your system rather 'Is Pakistan capable of design and adapt a new system' ? .NO.. Easily your short time goals are met with that decision... but in the long run when technology improves and new requirements arrive you will be stuck with this old design left with no 'tweaks' .. That time you will recognize the imporatants of 'scratch'.

 

[Bratva]

The question is not how much Chinese content included in your system rather 'Is Pakistan capable of design and adapt a new system' ? .NO.. Easily your short time goals are met with that decision... but in the long run when technology improves and new requirements arrive you will be stuck with this old design left with no 'tweaks' .. That time you will recognize the imporatants of 'scratch'.

A short reminder for you, Yes Pakistan Is capable of designing and adapting a new system, The Most recent example is AK-1 and AK-2 in making, which included third generation western systems plus the indigenous one's as well.


What you fail to comprehend from Santro posts is that, Pakistani Designs are not build around short term purposes, as we know, we can not purchase new platforms so quickly, so we have to Upgrade and modernize the Designed product to the extreme levels, so yes our desigened products are modular. and can quickly adapt new changes and when new requirement arrives, we can easily integrate it with the existing paltform. So your Argument is based on weak research of how Pakistani Systems works. I suggest you should research more on Pakistani platforms, before making weak claims like this

 

[SQ8]

The question is not how much Chinese content included in your system rather 'Is Pakistan capable of design and adapt a new system' ? .NO.. Easily your short time goals are met with that decision... but in the long run when technology improves and new requirements arrive you will be stuck with this old design left with no 'tweaks' .. That time you will recognize the imporatants of 'scratch'.

Incorrect again, you assume that the Ak is still a tweak in reality.
Whilst being far from it, every part of the AK is modular, turret down.. rather.. its VERY easy to meet new requirements with the AK...heck, there's even a concept of an AK with a Sam turret, one Ak APC, one Fatter AK that that would weigh 70 tons.. and a Recovery vehicle. That is adaptability..
Upto to you to accept it, I can, part of my work is on a few AK stuff.
I know better.

 

[SQ8]

Indian parts in Al Khalid???
Arjun Mk II is supposed to have Battle Field Management System (BFMS) that allows it to have a networked web with UAV or heli's to get realtime battle field information.
Practicality of this sort of network was said to have been tested during Operation Vijayee Bhava although a lot of T 90's and T 72's were involved in it. No concrete details though.

Yeah.. we have something similar operational on the AK called IBMS, working on 2.0 now..
What it does lack is the ability to connect with current UAV's fielded by the PA, which is why Arjun is a step ahead here.. it can use its Uav's or links with scout helo's such as the Dhruv and use that to plan.. and perhaps have it lase targets for ATGM's.