Arjun-II MBT development l Updates & discussion.

[Alfa-Fighter]

Stop taking gau mata p!ss drinking shots as per your hindu dharam.
I've give you solid statistics and numbers....while you have only resorted to personal attacks.
Even our Al Khalid-1 beats Arjun II in firepower and mobility...as proven by above statistics for both tanks.
Al Khalid-1 can carry significantly more number of rounds than arjun...can fire superior rounds including DU rounds..and has modern FCS with very capable gun having more muzzle velocity than even Merkava IV..

There is a reason why Pakistan Ground Forces have inducted Al Khalids in large numbers while indian army had to beg Russia for T-90s because Arjun(k) tank came out as useless..LOL..Even indian army doesn't have confidence on arjun...
Kind of true...

No one compared Merkava. I just gave Merkava's example to prove how modern and capable Al Khalid's Fire Control System and Gun.

We have an Israeli member here who used to be a gunner in IDF and have fired from Merkava II, III, and IVs (the most latest one)...

And even he has praised Al Khalid-1's FCS and gun and said that it is right up there (Merkava IV over-all is superior. We all know it.)

Can you tell me what the hit Probability of AK? Arjun has The Fire Control System is stabilised on two axes, and with an extremely high hit probability (design criteria call for a greater than 0.9 Pk)

Ask any oft they the terms at all....

We Pakistanis aren't delusional indians and this isn't any indian forum where india is regarded as "supa powa" of world lol..We Pakistanis don't live in delusions.

Al Khalid-1 is a very capable platform that serves our needs well within our budget constraints. THAT is what we think of Al Khalid.

Quite different from "best in the world" theme, no?

Engine on its own means nothing.

What matters is acceleration and Power-to-Weight ratio...and hence Al Khalid-1 has an advantage in this field since it can accelerate faster and has super P/W ratio than Arjun.

Arjun has speed 72 KM/Hr ...... what is the advantage of hight Power -t0 -Weight Ratio ??? care to explain?

you will the answer for speed below... the advantage of speed in battle field.

Max speed is a useless measure anyways.

Everything is important in battle field, like IA reach Siachin before PA , because of Speed ..... Now you under stand the importance of speed?

I'd like to see the source of Arjun II's max speed though...

Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So does Al Khalid.

Al Khalid can also carry DU rounds...Arjun can't.

Al-Khalid also fires a Pakistani DU round, the Naiza 125 mm DU round (armour penetration: 550 mm in RHA at 2 km)

Arjun Kanchan is made by sandwiching composite panels between Rolled Homogenous Armor (RHA). This helps in defeating APFDS and HEAT rounds. Trials conducted in 2000, showcased the ability of Kanchan armour to protect the tank, even when hit at point blank range by a T-72. It also demonstrated the capability to defeat HESH and APFSDS rounds, which included the Israeli APFSDS rounds. A new honeycomb design of Non-Explosive and Non-Energetic Reactive Armour (NERA) is additional is capable of defecting your DU rounds , if AK even came close in 2KM radius.

Moreover, Smoothbore guns are superior to rifled guns.

can you prove that technically ?

Same round fired from Arjun's gun will have less impact as compared to when fired to Al Khalid's 125mm smoothbore gun with absolutely remarkable muzzle velocity (which, as I said, is even superior to Merkava IV gun's muzzle velocity)

Very true.

Dose AK has NBC capability ?
Dose AK can cross Mine fields without getting blown ?

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Can you tell me what the hit Probability of AK? Arjun has The Fire Control System is stabilised on two axes, and with an extremely high hit probability (design criteria call for a greater than 0.9 Pk)

Ask any oft they the terms at all....



Arjun has speed 72 KM/Hr ...... what is the advantage of hight Power -t0 -Weight Ratio ??? care to explain?

you will the answer for speed below... the advantage of speed in battle field.



Everything is important in battle field, like IA reach Siachin before PA , because of Speed ..... Now you under stand the importance of speed?


Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Al-Khalid also fires a Pakistani DU round, the Naiza 125 mm DU round (armour penetration: 550 mm in RHA at 2 km)

Arjun Kanchan is made by sandwiching composite panels between Rolled Homogenous Armor (RHA). This helps in defeating APFDS and HEAT rounds. Trials conducted in 2000, showcased the ability of Kanchan armour to protect the tank, even when hit at point blank range by a T-72. It also demonstrated the capability to defeat HESH and APFSDS rounds, which included the Israeli APFSDS rounds. A new honeycomb design of Non-Explosive and Non-Energetic Reactive Armour (NERA) is additional is capable of defecting your DU rounds , if AK even came close in 2KM radius.





can you prove that technically ?



Dose AK has NBC capability ?
Dose AK can cross Mine fields without getting blown ?

HP/Tonne ratio demonstrate how one body can accelerate as compared to other in this case a Tank. It also is beneficial while crossing inclined heights, muddy fields as well as soft sands.

AK is able to survive NBC warfare as any other 3rd generation tank.

No Tank can survive Mine Field exploding directly under its track. Even if it is not blown away, it is sure to kill it mobility. If you want to say that Mine fields plowers at Arjun can cross every mine field then you should probably see AK crossing a mine field user trials. Video is posted on this site as well as available on youtube.

If Kanchan Armour is that much advanced that it is able to stop every kind of anti armor humanity has develop till date then why your country has brought an entire assembly line to manufacture T-90s and what is the need then to spend so much money on APS for Arjun?

Kindly dont quote wikipedia, even i can go there right now and update any info. Come with some better reference.

It was the stupidest comment when you compared tanks speeds and going atop a glacier.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

HP/Tonne ratio demonstrate how one body can accelerate as compared to other in this case a Tank. It also is beneficial while crossing inclined heights, muddy fields as well as soft sands.

AK is able to survive NBC warfare as any other 3rd generation tank.

No Tank can survive Mine Field exploding directly under its track. Even if it is not blown away, it is sure to kill it mobility. If you want to say that Mine fields plowers at Arjun can cross every mine field then you should probably see AK crossing a mine field user trials. Video is posted on this site as well as available on youtube.

If Kanchan Armour is that much advanced that it is able to stop every kind of anti armor humanity has develop till date then why your country has brought an entire assembly line to manufacture T-90s and what is the need then to spend so much money on APS for Arjun?

Kindly dont quote wikipedia, even i can go there right now and update any info. Come with some better reference.

It was thee stupidest comment when you compared tanks speeds and going atop a glacier.

Lol , don't talk in words.... prove..technically, in fantasies , even Pak MUSH (PA) told PAK satellites are more advance then Indain.

A) Well .... power to Weight to Ratio of Arjun is 1500/55= 27.2 and AK is 26 .... what you want to prove now?
that AK is superior even though is Power to weight ratio is less.......poor chap... do home work....

B) Arjun has Electromagnetic-counter mine system can also be installed to disable magnetic mines and disrupts its electronics before the tank reaches them. ( To advance technology for you to understand)

Wiki is more knowable then you read it, it might shatter your dreams,
you didn't tell what is your Tank hitting PA? don't know it? now your fault....beacsue you can't talk in in dept technical details .

Every country has its strategy which can't be changed over night, IA startegy based on Soviets which i.e (based on small and light tank) unlike west which based on Heavy Tanks .

I hope you understand the word Tanks strategy? For changing the strategy from Light Tank to Heavy tank needs time and equipment .... which changes over period of time......

If your tank is so super duper powerful why Malaysia didn't buy it after evaluation.? did they find your tank to powerful that it will destroy china with that?

 

[TeesraIndiotHunter]

Can you tell me what the hit Probability of AK? Arjun has The Fire Control System is stabilised on two axes, and with an extremely high hit probability (design criteria call for a greater than 0.9 Pk)

Hit probability is not a "uniform" category.

Distance, state of tank (moving, stationary), state of target (moving, stationary), height of tank relevant to the target (is tank firing targets that are not on level field) and alot of other things matter.

But I can tell you one thing: In military exercises in Sindh desert, Al Khalid (basic) engaged targets while being in accelerating speeds and targets being at maximum distance for Al Khalid rounds...Targets were real-life simulation as well (some targets were moving, some were stationary)...

Result: 8 out 10 direct hits. 1 miss. 1 hit but target wasn't completely destroyed (partial hit).

And that is basic Al Khalid. Al Khalid-1 has upgraded FCS with Pakistani-made improved gun.

You can get an idea of how lethally accurate Al Khalid is.



Rest assured: A LOT more exercises have happened...many improvements have been made...crews have gotten much more experienced with the tank and so on.

Al Khalid (basic) is atleast as accurate as Arjun..unless you claim that Arjun hits 10/10 targets every time under all circumstance at all distances with all variables involved..moving and stationary etc. (Which I'm sure you won't claim because I don't think you are a dumbass)

Arjun has speed 72 KM/Hr ...... what is the advantage of hight Power -t0 -Weight Ratio ??? care to explain?

Maximum speed is useless. It has NO battle-field use.

What matters is acceleration and maneuvering of the tank. Tanks with higher power-to-weight ratio have superior acceleration and maneuvering which gives them survival advantage over adversary tanks.

(Suspension and transmission also matter along with Power to Weight ratio)..

Everything is important in battle field, like IA reach Siachin before PA , because of Speed ..... Now you under stand the importance of speed?

Tactics matter also. Searching a vacant place with speed is no biggie. Even jamadars can do it.

When indian aircrafts with more speed faced PAF's fighter jets with lesser speeds, PAF's superior training, caliber, and tactics caused it to hammer iaf in the air in actual air-battles.

But yes, speed has its advantage too. (Speed in battlefied is "acceleration"...not "velocity" as you might imagine. 72km per hour is useless for Arjun AND Al Khalid. What matters is acceleration).

Arjun Kanchan is made by sandwiching composite panels between Rolled Homogenous Armor (RHA). This helps in defeating APFDS and HEAT rounds. Trials conducted in 2000, showcased the ability of Kanchan armour to protect the tank, even when hit at point blank range by a T-72. It also demonstrated the capability to defeat HESH and APFSDS rounds, which included the Israeli APFSDS rounds. A new honeycomb design of Non-Explosive and Non-Energetic Reactive Armour (NERA) is additional is capable of defecting your DU rounds , if AK even came close in 2KM radius.

Almost every tank's frontal armor is capable of "defecting" most rounds. That's where tactics come. There are A LOT of variables involved in armor battles.

Lastly, firing rounds from T-72 and firing rounds from a full-fledged third generation Al Khalid-1 with modern FCS and more muzzle velocity than even Merkava IV's gun is a completely different thing.

No one doubts that Arjun has a very good armor..but it does not make it "immune" in armor battles against other third generation tanks. Same goes for Merkava IV, Abrams, Al Khalids, Leopards..and everyone out there. No tank, even the best in the world, is immune against other tanks.

can you prove that technically ?

Why would I prove when it is proven already? Or you doubt the military results from various countries?

Why is it that 99% of advance Western tanks use smoothbore guns and not rifled?

Dose AK has NBC capability ?

Duh, offcourse. lol

Dose AK can cross Mine fields without getting blown ?

What kind of question is that? lol..

It can cross mine fields without getting blown.

It can not cross mine fields without getting blown.

Both are true.

If a mine is blown right beneath a tank, it will get destroyed. It depends on the situation.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

Hit probability is not a "uniform" category.

Distance, state of tank (moving, stationary), state of target (moving, stationary), height of tank relevant to the target (is tank firing targets that are not on level field) and alot of other things matter.

But I can tell you one thing: In military exercises in Sindh desert, Al Khalid (basic) engaged targets while being in accelerating speeds and targets being at maximum distance for Al Khalid rounds...Targets were real-life simulation as well (some targets were moving, some were stationary)...

Result: 8 out 10 direct hits. 1 miss. 1 hit but target wasn't completely destroyed (partial hit).

And that is basic Al Khalid. Al Khalid-1 has upgraded FCS with Pakistani-made improved gun.

You can get an idea of how lethally accurate Al Khalid is.



Rest assured: A LOT more exercises have happened...many improvements have been made...crews have gotten much more experienced with the tank and so on.

Al Khalid (basic) is atleast as accurate as Arjun..unless you claim that Arjun hits 10/10 targets every time under all circumstance at all distances with all variables involved..moving and stationary etc. (Which I'm sure you won't claim because I don't think you are a dumbass)

if your don't know Science ,, Smooth more Guns are less accurate then its counterpart and gun also need frequent changing as it can fire less rounds then its Rifled.

It is technology , proven then Rifled Gun is more accurate and long lasting then Smooth Bore guns. Moreover the accuracy of tank gun decreases with distance.

If your technology prove then smooth bore guns more accurate then Rifled guns , then come with technical answer and not fantasy worlds bla bla.... I would not doubt even if your claim that you AK can Hit target in moon or Destroy Indian MAR probe.

Maximum speed is useless. It has NO battle-field use.

What matters is acceleration and maneuvering of the tank. Tanks with higher power-to-weight ratio have superior acceleration and maneuvering which gives them survival advantage over adversary tanks.

(Suspension and transmission also matter along with Power to Weight ratio)..

So Arjun is more Power to Weight Ration, you trying to Say Arjun has more advantage in terms of above then AL , Correct?

Check you suspension technology, Indian uses Advance Suspensions technology , what suspension AK uses?

Tactics matter also. Searching a vacant place with speed is no biggie. Even jamadars can do it.

When indian aircrafts with more speed faced PAF's fighter jets with lesser speeds, PAF's superior training, caliber, and tactics caused it to hammer iaf in the air in actual air-battles.

But yes, speed has its advantage too. (Speed in battlefied is "acceleration"...not "velocity" as you might imagine. 72km per hour is useless for Arjun AND Al Khalid. What matters is acceleration).

tell me the Difference between Acceleration and Velocity?

Question , If you have to travel the distance of 300 KM on two tank which has speed of more then 73 KM/Hr and other tank which has 72km/hr but better acceleration, which will reach 300 KM first?

This is physic question even Nursery guy can answer, if you can't please go and read science and then came.

Arjun has more power to weight ratio that means more acceleration and more speed. Didn't you read Science????

Almost every tank's frontal armor is capable of "defecting" most rounds. That's where tactics come. There are A LOT of variables involved in armor battles.

Lastly, firing rounds from T-72 and firing rounds from a full-fledged third generation Al Khalid-1 with modern FCS and more muzzle velocity than even Merkava IV's gun is a completely different thing.

No one doubts that Arjun has a very good armor..but it does not make it "immune" in armor battles against other third generation tanks. Same goes for Merkava IV, Abrams, Al Khalids, Leopards..and everyone out there. No tank, even the best in the world, is immune against other tanks.

Well every tank made with crew safety, Indian tank made even if it was hit , crew will be safe, their ammunition store is blast proof container. Most tank destroyed after hitting, by their own ammunition blasts.

Why would I prove when it is proven already? Or you doubt the military results from various countries?

Why is it that 99% of advance Western tanks use smoothbore guns and not rifled?

lol, thats why i told read science , Smooth gun based kinetic energy penetrator rounds. The best traditional antitank weapons have been kinetic energy rounds, whose penetrating power and accuracy decrease with range.

with a smoothbore gun being ideal for firing HEAT rounds (although specially designed HEAT rounds can be fired from rifled guns) and rifling being necessary to fire HESH rounds.

These tanks made in past.....thats why carrying old technology. Due some research..

It can cross mine fields without getting blown.

It can not cross mine fields without getting blown.

Both are true.

If a mine is blown right beneath a tank, it will get destroyed. It depends on the situation.

Didn't you read properly , it disable the mines before stepping on it and also clear the with plougf.[/quote]

 

[TeesraIndiotHunter]

if your don't know Science ,, Smooth more Guns are less accurate then its counterpart and gun also need frequent changing as it can fire less rounds then its Rifled.

Stop being a dumbass.

You think I don't know all this? Stop going by basic knowledge that you got by reading bunch of online comments/google articles etc.

Have you ever read any actual research paper on tanks? guns? their evolution?

Smoothbore guns are prefered over rifled guns by 90% of professional armies across globe. You think they didn't know their science? LMAO!!

Stop making such brownie points.

Uptil now, you have presented no facts to counter that fact that when looked at from unbiased point of view, Al Khalid-1 surpasses Arjun in mobility and firepower....as proven by statistics given by me on previous page.

So Arjun is more Power to Weight Ration, you trying to Say Arjun has more advantage in terms of above then AL , Correct?

Yes. If Arjun has superior weight-to-power ratio, then it has an advantage over Al Khalid here.

But Arjun's power to weight ratio is inferior to Al Khalid's....unless you show me a credible source that says otherwise. (I'll change my views if you show me evidence).

Check you suspension technology, Indian uses Advance Suspensions technology , what suspension AK uses?

Equally advance suspension and transmission technologies.

tell me the Difference between Acceleration and Velocity?

Acceleration is real. Velocity is never achieved in battlefields.

lol

If you want to learn more, google it.

Didn't you read Science????

Don't know, but I definitely studied English...you little kid.

Well every tank made with crew safety, Indian tank made even if it was hit , crew will be safe, their ammunition store is blast proof container. Most tank destroyed after hitting, by their own ammunition blasts.

Al Khalid's ammunition is also stored in blast-proof container. C'mon, these are basics that EVERY tank has now a days. lol..

And here begins another stupid dick measuring contest..........started by some stupid Pakistani chimpanzee and Indians falling for this crap.

As I said, stop drinking cow p!ss as advised by your hindu religion.

I have presented facts, you can't disprove them. Hence personal attacks lol

Al Khalid is superior to Arjun in firepower and mobility. These are facts as I proved in my posts. You just cant deny that

 

[FNFAL]

Al Khalid is superior to Arjun in firepower and mobility. These are facts as I proved in my posts. You just cant deny that

You do realise that mbt 2000(VT-1A), which the AK is a derivative....was specially made for piss poor export customers who could not afford anything better.
Since the chinese themseleves have no faith in them they did not induct the same , even as a replacement for their older soviet clones...They do have 3 of them as training tools ..

 

[Ramesh N]

Stop being a dumbass.

You think I don't know all this? Stop going by basic knowledge that you got by reading bunch of online comments/google articles etc.

Have you ever read any actual research paper on tanks? guns? their evolution?

Smoothbore guns are prefered over rifled guns by 90% of professional armies across globe. You think they didn't know their science? LMAO!!

Stop making such brownie points.

Uptil now, you have presented no facts to counter that fact that when looked at from unbiased point of view, Al Khalid-1 surpasses Arjun in mobility and firepower....as proven by statistics given by me on previous page.



Yes. If Arjun has superior weight-to-power ratio, then it has an advantage over Al Khalid here.

But Arjun's power to weight ratio is inferior to Al Khalid's....unless you show me a credible source that says otherwise. (I'll change my views if you show me evidence).



Equally advance suspension and transmission technologies.



Acceleration is real. Velocity is never achieved in battlefields.

lol

If you want to learn more, google it.



Don't know, but I definitely studied English...you little kid.






Al Khalid's ammunition is also stored in blast-proof container. C'mon, these are basics that EVERY tank has now a days. lol..



As I said, stop drinking cow p!ss as advised by your hindu religion.

I have presented facts, you can't disprove them. Hence personal attacks lol

Al Khalid is superior to Arjun in firepower and mobility. These are facts as I proved in my posts. You just cant deny that

As I said. Stop drinking camel p!ss as advised by your MALSI

 

[HariPrasad]

cost of Arjun mk2 has touched the $10 million mark. Now its the world's most expensive tank and not the best by a long shot.

The much better Merkava mk4 is at the $6 million mark. Perhaps an ideal replacement for T-72?

Actually a provision in Budget was made for upgrading Awdi factory. It seems that this provision amount is transfered to factory by inflating Arjun price to pass on money to factory for Upgradation.

 

[FNFAL]

Exactly.
And Dumbo, VT-1A is a different tank than Al Khalid-1..with different engine, different Battlefield ItsManagement System, different gun, different /electronics, and fire different rounds all together and so on and on and on...
Please, stop bringing useless stuff here.
I have proved with statistics that Al Khalid-1 surpasses Arjun in mobility and firepower. Talk about that

Listen retard, lets quit on the name calling? Deal.
The very fact that you mentioned "avionics" in the same breath as tanks, gives ample proof of your depth , or should i say the lack of it, in analysis two very different tanks.

When you talk of engines. do realise the fact that the chinese were unable to provde you with a reliable tank to begin with, as it had an unreliable engine in their type 90 II design .It was only when the ukranian diesel engine came to the picture, did the cheap tank start to make sense.

Secondly, that gun...pffft...again...that is a uprated T64 cannon, designed waaaay back in the 60s.The ukranians bastardized that version into the KBA series..but in all esence is still the 2A46 cannon. That was needed coz you needed to fire their cannon launched missiles.

And what different ammuntions are you talking about??New names for Heat, Sabot HE ? I am offcourse leaving out the missile

I had some clown saying that the gun is from France ..lolz....If only Giat deserved to care about some idiots fantasy.

Look, at the end of the day , MBT 2000 is a value for money tank.Promises a lot for that cheap price.Certainly, cash strapped nations will look forward to such solutions.You guys took that and improved it to the AK. Please dont compare it with any heavier tank. based on western design

The Ak is simply a rebadged Norinco Type 90IIM, with components sourced from all over the globe and assembled in HIT pak..and if you trace back through the myriad of chinese naming conventions, its a highly evolved T-54
Truth sounds bitter? Yes. Thats why you should pipe down when being too proud of assembling an uprated t-54

 

[kṣamā]

Stop being a dumbass.

You think I don't know all this? Stop going by basic knowledge that you got by reading bunch of online comments/google articles etc.

Have you ever read any actual research paper on tanks? guns? their evolution?

Smoothbore guns are prefered over rifled guns by 90% of professional armies across globe. You think they didn't know their science? LMAO!!

Hmm The argument being that "90% [citation needed] of professional armies across globe" use smoothbore dose not make it better. By the basis of same argument "90% [citation needed] of professional air-force across globe use non stealth aircraft" that does not make non-stealth aircraft better. I know the fallacy of my example but I think I have communicated my drift.

Moreover armies around the globe use smoothbore bcoz they are almost maintenance free and have comparatively higher life without any grove wear and tear. Also they can have relatively simple a cannon launch missile system.

Now coming to riffled barrel, the only difference is that they induce a lateral spin to the projectile. This inturn gives them Gyroscopic stability. Donn be intimidated by the big word, its just the same force which stops the spinning top from falling down during its spin. Simple. But this gyroscopic force helps a lot in achieving a good accurate hit, by resisting different forces acting on it. Though it will have some spin induced drift but a good firing solution computer with good sensor can mitigate it.

Another issue would be that the spin also eats up on the maximum range. but this has also been taken care by the huge Max Chamber Pressure of 8000bar / 800MPa.

 

[Omega007]

Which part? Maintenance one, APFSDS one, or Challenger one.

No,you got the maintenance part right.The mistake was in the accuracy part.

And the Challenger MkI hitting a T 72M is at 5000 meter - it sounds very cool but I guess you don't know the whole story.I could tell you if you wanted to.

 

[Omega007]

Hmm The argument being that "90% [citation needed] of professional armies across globe" use smoothbore dose not make it better. By the basis of same argument "90% [citation needed] of professional air-force across globe use non stealth aircraft" that does not make non-stealth aircraft better. I know the fallacy of my example but I think I have communicated my drift.

Moreover armies around the globe use smoothbore bcoz they are almost maintenance free and have comparatively higher life without any grove wear and tear. Also they can have relatively simple a cannon launch missile system.

Now coming to riffled barrel, the only difference is that they induce a lateral spin to the projectile. This inturn gives them Gyroscopic stability. Donn be intimidated by the big word, its just the same force which stops the spinning top from falling down during its spin. Simple. But this gyroscopic force helps a lot in achieving a good accurate hit, by resisting different forces acting on it. Though it will have some spin induced drift but a good firing solution computer with good sensor can mitigate it.

Another issue would be that the spin also eats up on the maximum range. but this has also been taken care by the huge Max Chamber Pressure of 8000bar / 800MPa.

You made a little mistake here bud.It's true that a rifled barrel imparts a lateral spin,which in turn stabilizes a projectile.But it is only true for a projectile with L ratio of less than 6:1 !!But if it is more than that ratio,then lateral spin can not longer stabilize the projectile.In case of a FSAPDS penetrator,its L ratio is 20:1 even for those ancient rounds like DM 33 et al with modern ones like M 338/DM 63/ M 829A2 reaching upwards of 35:1.So quite naturally a rifled gun will never be able to stabilize such a projectile.

That is why they are stabilized by use of fins,like in a arrow.Lateral spin is actually quite a big disadvantage for such a projectile,because it could twist and even break the thin rods in flight even before they could make contact with their targets!!That's why the developers have to put in extra efforts with the FSAPDS rounds envisaged to be fired from rifled barrels (for example,fitting ball bearings in between the sabots and penetrators,in order to keep the penetrators from spinning,making them more complex compared to the ones for smooth barrels).In fact,you can not use other 120mm FSAPDS rounds available on the international market straight away because they are all developed for smooth barrel guns and do not sport the bearings.

So as you can see,an FSAPDS penetrator doesn't spin at all,even if it's fired from a rifled barrel.In fact,one has to take special care just to keep them from spinning on their lateral axis.

 

[kṣamā]

You made a little mistake here bud.It's true that a rifled barrel imparts a lateral spin,which in turn stabilizes a projectile.But it is only true for a projectile with L ratio of less than 6:1 !!But if it is more than that ratio,then lateral spin can not longer stabilize the projectile.In case of a FSAPDS penetrator,its L ratio is 20:1 even for those ancient rounds like DM 33 et al with modern ones like M 338/DM 63/ M 829A2 reaching upwards of 35:1.So quite naturally a rifled gun will never be able to stabilize such a projectile.

That is why they are stabilized by use of fins,like in a arrow.Lateral spin is actually quite a big disadvantage for such a projectile,because it could twist and even break the thin rods in flight even before they could make contact with their targets!!That's why the developers have to put in extra efforts with the FSAPDS rounds envisaged to be fired from rifled barrels (for example,fitting ball bearings in between the sabots and penetrators,in order to keep the penetrators from spinning,making them more complex compared to the ones for smooth barrels).In fact,you can not use other 120mm FSAPDS rounds available on the international market straight away because they are all developed for smooth barrel guns and do not sport the bearings.

So as you can see,an FSAPDS penetrator doesn't spin at all,even if it's fired from a rifled barrel.In fact,one has to take special care just to keep them from spinning on their lateral axis.

Hmm there is something which i dinn knew. But a question how can a lateral spin affect the perpetrator rod ??? A normal common sense tells me that the entire round will spin on an axis which actually lies inside perpetrator rod . And yes u are true, riffled barrel dose need a complex shell design. Also u clarified one of my long standing doubts, about why dose even rifled barrel ammo needs to be fin assisted.

And about 120mm penetrators, yes those rounds cannot be used just off the shelf but i thought it was more to do with auto-loader carousel . ..

 

[Ramesh N]

No,you got the maintenance part right.The mistake was in the accuracy part.

And the Challenger MkI hitting a T 72M is at 5000 meter - it sounds very cool but I guess you don't know the whole story.I could tell you if you wanted to.

I wish to hear that story.........