Arjun-II MBT development l Updates & discussion.

[Dazzler]

You need link ?

read edited post, was talking about era pic i posted

 

[Omega007]

Guys,seems like our @Dazzler has completely lost it.He thinks that "passive dynamic armor arrays" or NERA/NExRA can only be used in the vehicle base armor cavity and can not be used as add on modules!!

He doesn't seem to realise that NERA as like any laminate armor also come in different shapes and sizes of add on modules.It could either be in the form of wage shaped arrays we see on the Leopard 2 models from the A5 onwards or it could be formed as cassettes/tiles like ERA panels as is used over the glacis plate of Arjun MkII.

There is simply no point left to argue with him on this matter.Let him remain entitled to his personal opinions and move on,that'd be best course of action to be taken judging by the way the discussion is moving towards.

 

[Mujraparty]

Your argument is that 'those aren't dynamic passive armour,but ERA,and a copy of K 5'.

DRDO doesn't make these..

here's the source of that pic ..good read ..
Armour Protection and Affordable Protection for Futuristic Combat Vehicles | Madhu | Defence Science Journal

 

[Dazzler]

Guys,seems like our @Dazzler has completely lost it.He thinks that "passive dynamic armor arrays" or NERA/NExRA can only be used in the vehicle base armor cavity and can not be used as add on modules!!

He doesn't seem to realise that NERA as like any laminate armor also come in different shapes and sizes of add on modules.It could either be in the form of wage shaped arrays we see on the Leopard 2 models from the A5 onwards or it could be formed as cassettes/tiles like ERA panels as is used over the glacis plate of Arjun MkII.

There is simply no point left to argue with him on this matter.Let him remain entitled to his personal opinions and move on,that'd be best course of action to be taken judging by the way the discussion is moving towards.

the argument is arjun specific, u need to learn a thing or two about your own mbt, there is no nera plates on arjun externally, the plates visible in pics on glacis are covered with metal case where era can be added. see the pics, on the turret, those are era cassettes. th point being, nera in arjun acts as a part of composite armour. regarding leo 2 nera and composite, there is no comparison, one has both sides of frontal turret covered with 600+mm armour, the other is half vacant turret.

your posts have confirmed my suspicion, problems in understanding simple things. sigh

here's the source of that pic ..good read ..
Armour Protection and Affordable Protection for Futuristic Combat Vehicles | Madhu | Defence Science Journal

dont u get it? passive armour IS composite armour, era cassettes are active protection with explosives within. the difference between passive and active is a mile apart.

 

[Omega007]

the argument is arjun specific, u need to learn a thing or two about your own mbt, there is no nera plates on arjun externally, the plates visible in pics on glacis are covered with metal case where era can be added. see the pics, on the turret, those are era cassettes. th point being, nera in arjun acts as a part of composite armour. regarding leo 2 nera and composite, there is no comparison, one has both sides of frontal turret covered with 600+mm armour, the other is half vacant turret.

your posts have confirmed my suspicion, problems in understanding simple things. sigh

Blabber as much as you want moron,I don't give a flying fu*k.Everyone here by now has got it very clearly who has got "problems in understanding simple things".

And what was that about 600mm bs??!!The Leo 2s from A5 onwards have base armor LOS thickness of 900+ mm or so.And that "half vacant" turret has got 40% greater LOS thickness on your super-sexy AKs!!So that makes your AKs what??

 

[bloo]

the argument is arjun specific, u need to learn a thing or two about your own mbt, there is no nera plates on arjun externally, the plates visible in pics on glacis are covered with metal case where era can be added. see the pics, on the turret, those are era cassettes. th point being, nera in arjun acts as a part of composite armour. regarding leo 2 nera and composite, there is no comparison, one has both sides of frontal turret covered with 600+mm armour, the other is half vacant turret.

your posts have confirmed my suspicion, problems in understanding simple things. sigh



dont u get it? passive armour IS composite armour, era cassettes are active protection with explosives within. the difference between passive and active is a mile apart.

Your rebuttal is still nothing more than a wild guess from a few pictures on the net.

As I said earlier the NERA is not of a slat style but a honey comb fashioned one; similar if not same like the Chobam. Thus it can be placed in between plates.........and your point becomes moot.

 

[Dazzler]

Blabber as much as you want moron,I don't give a flying fu*k.Everyone here by now has got it very clearly who has got "problems in understanding simple things".

And what was that about 600mm bs??!!The Leo 2s from A5 onwards have base armor LOS thickness of 900+ mm or so.And that "half vacant" turret has got 40% greater LOS thickness on your super-sexy AKs!!So that makes your AKs what??

a person who runs out of words, comes down to abuses, belongs to the highest degree of hypocrite

I really don't want to end up in another x vs y comparison debate, you are an insecure individual as your despererate posts reflect, bringing AK and what not in the argument, only to prove that Arjun is a perfect little mbt which it is not, off course, no system is, but no system has as many loopholes as Arjun either. I have exposed it plenty of times, not going to follow suit again.

One tip for you though, don't go into fantasy statistics by ersakthivel, he is a Gopher, one who knows s**t about armour, has been busted plenty a times by many, his charts (if you call them charts, or what ever they are) are so stupid, it is not even laughable. The man once claimed Arjun's frontal armor to be as thick as 1100mm, goodness !

Show me, which angle or LOS goes as thick on Arjun? please go ahead

The reality, from your beloved forum... worst example of fluctuating frontal armor, by STGN, you see the difference in both sides is almost twice the thickness !

thanks to a poorly incorporated optics/ sighting system, Arjun has lost HALF of its frontal LOS thickness, horrible planning by the makers !

Leo-2 early variants had the same weakness, guess what, the first thing they addressed was the position of optics/ sights cavity, moved it further back, added plenty of armour to match the thickness of other side, made it uniform. You dont see it in Arjun, the armor block behind the optics is not more than 450-500mm in thickness, worse, it cant even house ERA tiles since the optics will be blocked, just horrible.

Instead of blaberring and abusing, it would be better of you brought some valid arguments, i.e. if you have any.

Your rebuttal is still nothing more than a wild guess from a few pictures on the net.

As I said earlier the NERA is not of a slat style but a honey comb fashioned one; similar if not same like the Chobam. Thus it can be placed in between plates.........and your point becomes moot.

i cant help a naive person, stay in your world

 

[HariPrasad]

The tiles on the glacis plates are not ERA,those are NERA tiles.

How do they function. ERA explodes and munimize the strike effect. How does NERA wrok?

As if we have a world beater here............we have just arrived at the scene,it will take some time



Na man,,i am not looking for trouble.
I just don't like the design,,,whats big deal about it??

Compare it to merkava,challenger,leopard or japanese type 10(god i love that tank) and even u would agree.
Now we may take some time to get to their level of design,,lets hope we get there soon

FMBT with newly designed palne cockpit like cabin with high automation and only 2 member crew and light weight with high mobility is coming . Please wait.

 

[Dazzler]

How do they function. ERA explodes and munimize the strike effect. How does NERA wrok?

NERA, as the name suggests, is Non Energetic Reactive Armor, unlike an Explosive armour, NERA is made up of non metallic materials mostly, or non metallic and metallic mixed in some cases. high quality flexible rubber is also used in the NERA composition but it is not a given. The prime purpose of a NERA is to reduce the density of incoming apfsds penetrator by letting it through different layers of various thickness/ flexibility and density.

 

[HariPrasad]

I just don't like the design,,,whats big deal about it??

What do mean by design. Are you referring to shape or any particular aspact of design which may hinder its fighting capability?

 

[Omega007]

@Dazzler ,dude,you really think that you're adding something new here??Do you really believe I'm not aware of the GMS (gunner's main sight) placement issue??
Listen man,there is NO COMPOSITE armor behind the GMS,instead DRDO has placed a ~460mm thick solid block of hardened heavy metal alloy with a TE (thickness efficiency) of 1.6 - meaning a 10 cm thick plate of that material has same ballistic resistance as a 16cm RHA plate has.It's more than enough to handle all current and future FSAPDS rounds in our neighbourhood.And the army would've definitely sought modification if they thought it was such big a issue as it is made out to be.

Besides,it's a very small window at the right upper corner of the turret.Good luck hitting that place at 2000 yards.

Even I could tell that AK has a partially exposed roof from front angle and its turret sides are particularly vulnerable even from frontal ark.Even worse,AK till now doesn't sport a hardened mantlet mask!!Each and every one of these are much more glaring gaps in AK's protection compared to the GMS of Arjun;but do the Indians make a big fuss all the time??No,because these have been discussed more than once before and they no longer present anything valuable........other than stupid d!ck measuring to satisfy someone's ego.So now lets give it a rest.

And yeah,110cm was plain exaggeration on Kunal's part,I told him that myself over there.But 950mm is almost correct,even Dejawolf and militarysta now somewhat agree with that figure after Kunal posted his measured pictures he took during Defexpo 14.

 

[sms]

the argument is arjun specific, u need to learn a thing or two about your own mbt, there is no nera plates on arjun externally, the plates visible in pics on glacis are covered with metal case where era can be added. see the pics, on the turret, those are era cassettes. th point being, nera in arjun acts as a part of composite armour. regarding leo 2 nera and composite, there is no comparison, one has both sides of frontal turret covered with 600+mm armour, the other is half vacant turret.

your posts have confirmed my suspicion, problems in understanding simple things. sigh

dont u get it? passive armour IS composite armour, era cassettes are active protection with explosives within. the difference between passive and active is a mile apart.

I've always understood that ERA or NERA are both type of passive protection both lat ideal waiting for something to hit. One of them react (explode) to shock created by incoming projectile and other just absorb it.

Active protection is some thing that senses the incoming projectile and takes actions to eliminate threat before it van hit the tank surface. It requires sensor, trigger device and charges to be released to destroy to deflect incoming projectile.

Please correct me if I'm wrong

 

[nik22]

@Dazzler , like for keeping your cool

 

[Omega007]

I've always understood that ERA or NERA are both type of passive protection both lat ideal waiting for something to hit. One of them react (explode) to shock created by incoming projectile and other just absorb it.

Active protection is some thing that senses the incoming projectile and takes actions to eliminate threat before it van hit the tank surface. It requires sensor, trigger device and charges to be released to destroy to deflect incoming projectile.

Please correct me if I'm wrong

No.Just a glance at their names should be enough to understand that ERA and NERA are not passive armors,but they are types of "reactivating" armors.ERA - Explosive Reactivating Armor and NERA/NExRA - Non Energetic/Explosive Reactivating Armor. Armor Both ERA and NERA/NExRA falls under subclass of dynamic armor,they are not "passive" armor like the ceramic based ones.

Dynamic in the sense that in this case,when a projectile hits these types of armors,its components do not remain stationery like that of other types of armors.The components either detonate upon impact and destroy/disrupt the penetrators or metal jets from shaped charges (in case of ERA) or in case of NERA/NExRA,they do not explode,instead their components bulges back and forth upon impact and thus disrupts the projectiles.

Now,a single layer of ERA is always more effective than a single layer of NERA/NExRA,that's why the later has to employed with multiple layers.So generally,NERA is bulkier and space inefficient compared to ERA.But on the other hand,NERA is far safer to handle and most importantly, can take multiple hits,especially against shaped charges unlike ERA which are single use only.

This should suffice for now.I shall post some more detailed info on the working principles of NERA/NExRA with marked diagrams and X-ray pictures from tests at a later date.

 

[Dazzler]

@Dazzler ,dude,you really think that you're adding something new here??Do you really believe I'm not aware of the GMS (gunner's main sight) placement issue??
Listen man,there is NO COMPOSITE armor behind the GMS,instead DRDO has placed a ~460mm thick solid block of hardened heavy metal alloy with a TE (thickness efficiency) of 1.6 - meaning a 10 cm thick plate of that material has same ballistic resistance as a 16cm RHA plate has.It's more than enough to handle all current and future FSAPDS rounds in our neighbourhood.And the army would've definitely sought modification if they thought it was such big a issue as it is made out to be.

Besides,it's a very small window at the right upper corner of the turret.Good luck hitting that place at 2000 yards.

Even I could tell that AK has a partially exposed roof from front angle and its turret sides are particularly vulnerable even from frontal ark.Even worse,AK till now doesn't sport a hardened mantlet mask!!Each and every one of these are much more glaring gaps in AK's protection compared to the GMS of Arjun;but do the Indians make a big fuss all the time??No,because these have been discussed more than once before and they no longer present anything valuable........other than stupid d!ck measuring to satisfy someone's ego.So now lets give it a rest.

And yeah,110cm was plain exaggeration on Kunal's part,I told him that myself over there.But 950mm is almost correct,even Dejawolf and militarysta now somewhat agree with that figure after Kunal posted his measured pictures he took during Defexpo 14.

u cant stay away from indulging into competition can you

first, the very concept of thickness efficiency is a comforting term for a side that can barely house more armour beside 450mm due to default design flaw. so there goes your argument of thickness efficiency.

second, the composite armour is better in terms of protection compared to a monoblock semi hardened, rolled homogenous or even high hardened steel armour, why? simply because composite armour is a mix of varying materials with varying charactaristics that can more likely disable a penetrator.

your biggest misconception is the last part, your neighbour has more than 560mm capable penetrators, the naiza du rod does more than 560mm @ 2000m.