Are Kashmiris going to be sold down the river ?

[Awesome]

On a productive note:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7598_1802174,00050002.htm

LoC irrelevant to Kashmir solution: Musharraf

Making the Line of Control (LoC) irrelevant is one of the ideas towards "an acceptable solution" to the Kashmir issue Pakistan President General Pervez Musharraf seems to have in mind.

Mainly the issue in Kashmir, he told a press conference here Wednesday on the sidelines of the 61st UN General Assembly session, is that while India's concern is that redrawing of borders is not possible, Pakistan's view is that the LoC cannot be made permanent.

"Therefore the deduction from both sides is that LoC should be made irrelevant," he said. "So these are good ideas which need to be substantiated or crystallised in greater detail. And I think with right amount of will we can find a solution."

However, Musharraf would not elaborate further saying there were extremists on both sides and as such "we need to tread difficult ground in a very steady manner to reach final conclusions."

There were, he said, three factors that made him suggest during his address to the UN General Assembly Tuesday that "an acceptable solution" to the Kashmir issue was within reach.

Firstly, there is desire of the Indian and Pakistani people to reach peace. Secondly, the international environment happens to be quite conducive towards facilitating a peaceful resolution of disputes.

Thirdly, the leadership on both sides has an increasing desire to reach a peace agreement, Musharraf said suggesting that within this framework there were many proposals, many of them given by him. But he chose to dilate about only the one relating to LoC.

His meeting in Havana with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh was very positive, Musharraf said. As their joint statement noted, the two sides have been discussing the Kashmir dispute and needed to "narrow down our divergences and strengthen our convergences," he said, urging the media to support both him and Singh.

There were extremists on both sides of the border. Those in Pakistan were unhappy with whatever he was doing and those in India with what Singh was doing, he said, "So I would urge you to be positive and help the prime minister out and help me out."

On the Kashmir issue, "there is a desire to move forward and we will keep moving forward," he said, describing the joint statement as a very good movement forward.

"We have shown a resolve to move forward with all the elements of the peace process" including a resolution of the Siachen and Sir Creek issues, he said.

Asked about Indian intelligence's reported concerns about the proposed India-Pakistan joint mechanism to fight terrorism, Musharraf said, "It's not a question of only Pakistan intelligence coming on board. We would like even the Indian intelligence to come on board with us. It's a mutual gain."

Pakistan, he said, had certain apprehensions about the Indian intelligence and what is happening in Pakistan and in BaLoChistan province. Probably Indian intelligence has its own apprehensions.

The mechanism has not been set. The two sides have just said that there will be an institutional mechanism to address these issues. So more should not be read between the lines, Musharraf said.

"We will create that mechanism for addressing issues of mutual concern. And I am sure, we'll do a good job of it," he said.

Asked if Pakistan would support India's nominee Shashi Tharoor for the post of UN secretary general, Musharraf said Islamabad had not made up its mind yet, adding that "I would not be able to play my cards" if he showed his hand.

Asked if an evil ideology or non-resolution of the Kashmir issue was behind the Mumbai train bombings, Musharraf said, "I can't say. Whatever has happened is most detestable. I condemn it in the strongest terms. But I really don't know who is behind it."

Pakistan, he said, had proposed assistance. It had proposed that if Pakistan was accused of something, it would like to join the investigation and coordinate efforts. "But that was summarily rejected. So we don't really know what has happened or who has done it."

On denial of an India type nuclear deal by Washington, Musharraf said there should be no discrimination as Pakistan is a nuclear state. Pakistan had a tremendous energy demand because of its economic and industrial growth.

"So I would like to say that Pakistan urges everyone to treat us equally with all other nuclear states. In any case, nuclear state or not, Pakistan needed nuclear energy with all the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) safeguards. So When it was prepared to accept all safeguards, why should there be a bias against Pakistan," he asked.

Asked to comment on the US President George W. Bush's remark to CNN that given actionable intelligence about the whereabouts of bin Laden even if he was on Pakistani territory, he will give orders to kill or capture him, Musharraf said, " We would not like to allow that at all. We will do it ourselves."

"Whenever we have LoCated anybody from the Al Quaeda or the Taliban, we have struck with good force very successfully. And we'll do it again on our side of the frontier," he said.

 

[Skeptic786]

No need for ranting my friend; doubt the situation any different if anyone else was in power. From Qazi, to Altaf and right down to Sharif - and even Musharraf - Pakistani politics will remain in shambles; and its not going to change unless the entire system changes. I just find it stupid when folks like you have the nerve to call certain folks sellouts and what not when you probably never did something of any true meaning for your religion or country in your life.

only person that is ranting and ranted is you. quote any text in which i called mushy sellout?????

As far as you questioning my contribution ...how is that relevant to the discussion that was invited.......like all your family is Alim-Din ( Scholars of Islam ) while at the same time bearing nishan-haider ( pakistan's highest gallentry award)...when in reality all of you serve the white masters to the hilt far away from pakistan...yet you have the right to open your mouth and condemn me??? what is it if not hypocrisy?

but i am glad you brought this up so i can set the record str8 on the likes of you and your God Mushy;

My forefathers were discussing and planning "kashmir banega Pakistan" even before mushy was even a mere sperm in his father's testicle. This Kashmir...which is far away land to you and mushy ( who was not even born in pakistan but delhi ) is my homeland....a part of it forms my family's estate and has done so for hundreds of years and even in Maharaja time we were exempt from tax since we never leased land from him.... owned it since any records he could or bother to trace ( the fact his grandfather paid british to buy kashmir never effected our rights over our land )....even the parts of the estate that is nowadays on the other side of the LOC we own.....its where all my family is buried...its where i will be buried ( hopefully anyway ).......Pakistan army rents the land from us to build its posts and pays to keep mined fields which otherwise would be used to plant crops .......many of my close relatives serve in the Pakistan army itself....and have done so since the time of its coming into being....having fought in all wars pakistan was involved in....in the 1971 war while mushy was crying like a baby on the west pakistan front......my first cousins were fighting in east pakistan ( now bangladesh 1971 ).....those that were fighting on the western front where actually involved in fighting on hot fronts like chamb.....something which singularly seemed to have missed mushy in his entire milatary career.....only commando never to have seen any action ! i have not even started on his great adventure in kargil....only for the reason that to date i have always advocated overlooking in the best interest of Pakistan since it will lead to quite bit of dissension....and instability..which we can do without right now.....yet the likes of you have the audacity to tell us that we should not question mushy actions as if he was somekind of conquering hero or saladin.....his neither........and must take his share of questioning and criticism.......that should have been dished on all those at the helms of affairs in the last 50 years.......if one thing that has hurt pakistan most is the blind worship of those who are in power...while in power.

 

[Awesome]

Skeptic, there is a Gung-ho way of doing things and then there is a Political one.

Fighting, has gotten us nowhere. Seriously there is a rethink in strategy that perhaps fighting will get us nowhere in the future either.

I do not hold any such desires such us Kashmir Banega Pakistan, what I want to see is Kashmir resolved and not on Indian terms, and even not on Pakistani terms. I want to see it resolved on the terms that are favorable and desirable by Kashmiris.

To get Kashmir from India by force is to be as strong as the United States is today and India to be as weak as an impoverished 3rd world country's rag tag militia. The likes of President Musharraf are still dedicated to not to allow a non-Kashmiri resolution to this issue.

The only and I say this with a pinch of salt, resolution to Kashmir is if Pakistan gives away its Kashmir and India gives away its Kashmir and allows a complete Kashmiri nationhood to be formed. This is a practical way which won't hurt the sentiments of Indians or Pakistanis since neither gets any. And Kashmir's location itself can help it earn a lot of money. Pakistan would need good ties with Kashmir for its water supply and India would want to keep its power generation dams running. Not to mention the tourism benefits once order is restored.

So that is a solution for Kashmiris.

Either we can continue to blaze guns of violence or we can follow the foot steps of Jinnah who never advocated militancy but got us our very own nation by being one heckava smartass.

There is the AK-47 way and then there is the Mushy way. In any day of the wee I'd put my money on Mushy than some militant leader of the HuM to resolve Kashmir.

 

[waz]

Salam skeptic bro good to see you here as well thanks for all the links and I do share your concern especially with this “posturing” to India which is like poison to us. Some suggest it’s a game played by Mush to highlight how inflexible India is over matters pertaining to Kashmir. I doubt our fatherland will sell us out like that.

Like you bro my forefathers came back from the great war [World War 2] to pick up arms once again and fight for their freedom firstly from the Dogra army and then the Indians. I would rather die than see our ancestral homeland pawned or negotiated over by people who have this concept of “concessions” to India. I feel aggrieved at times that some have not taken note of our great sacrifices. Whilst Pakistani prisoners languished in Indian jails after the debacle of the 71 war my uncle overran the Indian high commission in London to highlight their cause of which him and Muhammad Hanif paid for with their lives.

For the sake of unity of our fatherland we must all stand together and resolve our disputes amicably.

As for the future my dream as most of our people has been that we become one with Pakistan and the state that was envisaged by our great founders is finally complete. I hope I see this in my lifetime.

 

[Awesome]

Btw, I must say my father's family came from India during the partition (though I'm a Lahore-born) and if I may say so myself, you'd struggle to find a family of bigger patriots than ours. The love I presently hold for my nation is largely due to my upbringing by my parents, the two greatest influences in my life.

So lets stop making ancestoral lineage to the land of Pakistan be the litmus test for who is more Pakistani. I say this because sure Pakistan is a piece of land for us, but its also an idea. A great idea all our ancestors fought for as one united unit and its a fight that we all should be ready to carry on as one nation not sub-nations and ethnicities.

My offtopic 2 cents.

 

[sigatoka]

1. Musharraf and help prevent killings of Indians? He does not care about Indians and Indian Kashmiris either.

2. He will continue his support to elements that aims to harm us only. I wish Indian leaders are only making small talk when they agree to such dialogues. I hope they too know this means nothing.

1. There is a difference between Indian civilians and Indian troops.

2. India is unwilling to enter serious negotiations, this is India's fault not Pak.

 

[Skeptic786]

Salam skeptic bro good to see you here as well thanks for all the links and I do share your concern especially with this “posturing” to India which is like poison to us. Some suggest it’s a game played by Mush to highlight how inflexible India is over matters pertaining to Kashmir. I doubt our fatherland will sell us out like that.

Like you bro my forefathers came back from the great war [World War 2] to pick up arms once again and fight for their freedom firstly from the Dogra army and then the Indians. I would rather die than see our ancestral homeland pawned or negotiated over by people who have this concept of “concessions” to India. I feel aggrieved at times that some have not taken note of our great sacrifices. Whilst Pakistani prisoners languished in Indian jails after the debacle of the 71 war my uncle overran the Indian high commission in London to highlight their cause of which him and Muhammad Hanif paid for with their lives.

For the sake of unity of our fatherland we must all stand together and resolve our disputes amicably.

As for the future my dream as most of our people has been that we become one with Pakistan and the state that was envisaged by our great founders is finally complete. I hope I see this in my lifetime.

ws waz bro,

it is here where you will get to read my posts from now on...since i had a tiff with one of the mods at PDF ( plati786 to be exact ).

I agree with everything you said and hope too that all this posturing is merely to show how inflexible india is. Alot of people have sacrificed their lives for kashmir's freedom from india........estimated 120,000.....this sacrifice cannot be overlooked to please vested interests be they western powers or eastern home grown ones.

 

[Skeptic786]

Pak to route intelligence via Interpol

Our Monitoring Desk
Pakistan on Saturday said it would share information on intelligence with India through Interpol as per the joint anti-terror mechanism agreed upon by the two countries and ‘wilfully’ cooperate if any Red Corner Notices were issued through the world police body.
“We share information with India about any most-wanted person through Interpol and if New Delhi has issued Red warrants of any criminal, Pakistan will fully cooperate,” Interior Minister Aftab Khan Sherpao told a private TV channel.
NNI adds: Pakistan and Britain have agreed on the formation of a joint working group to strengthen intelligence sharing between the two countries, said Federal Minister for Interior, Aftaf Ahmad Khan Sherpao.

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/sep-2006/24/index7.php

 

[Skeptic786]

Joint mechanism to test Pak: Singh

NAINITAL (AFP) - India’s prime minister sought public support to tackle terrorism by cooperating with Pakistan, saying such a move would pressure Islamic militants accused in a series of deadly attacks.
Manmohan Singh and Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf agreed at talks in Cuba this month to share intelligence on terrorism linked to Islamic militants that has hit India repeatedly in Kashmir and elsewhere.
But critics dismissed the idea of cooperation with Islamabad who they say arms and trains militants to carry out attacks in the disputed state of Kashmir and Singh sought to assure the public the idea was workable.
“The decision to set up the joint mechanism will only test Pakistan on how it fulfills its promise of not allowing territory in its control to be used for terrorism against India,” Singh said in this northern Indian summer resort Sunday.
“I believe our two countries have to find ways and means to get over the problems, that includes terrorism and for the end of terrorism talks have to take place,” he told chief ministers of 14 of India’s 29 states which are governed by his ruling Congress party.
“There has been a trust deficit between India and Pakistan and so talks are essential,” he said in Nainital, 350 kilometres (217 miles) north of New Delhi.
India in July and August suspended the peace process with Islamabad begun in 2004 after a spate of blasts by suspected Islamic militants in Mumbai two months ago left 183 train commuters dead and 900 injured.
In Havana, Singh met Musharraf on the sidelines of the Non-Aligned Movement summit and agreed to the cooperation to get peace talks back on track.
The Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) has attacked the plan, labelling it a “betrayal” of India’s interests. Singh, speaking to his provincial chiefs, dismissed the criticism.
“The criticism against setting up of the joint mechanism is not right and there is no change in our approach on terrorism,” Singh said. “Rumours are being spread against the setting up of the joint mechanism,” the soft-spoken premier said without naming the BJP, which was ousted from power by the Congress in national elections in 2004.
India accuses the Pakistani military’s Inter-Services Intelligence of arming cross-border militants in divided Kashmir which is claimed in full by both countries. Islamabad denies the charge.
More than 44,000 people have died in Kashmir, India’s only Muslim-majority state, since the launch of an Islamic rebellion in Himalayan territory in 1989.
Neither Singh nor Musharraf have exlpained the contours of the cooperation deal, but Indian government sources say foreign secretary talks in the next few months would discuss how it would work, particularly in sharing intelligence.
Analysts say they have reservations about the effectiveness of the mechanism.
“We have walked into a trap,” said G. Parthasarathy, a former Indian ambassador to Pakistan.
The Press Trust of India in a dispatch from Islamabad, meanwhile, said Pakistan had expressed its willingness to share intelligence with India through the Geneva-based Interpol.

 

[Bull]

1. He hasnt, and he wont. It would be political suicide for him to do so. He's just saying that planting bombs targettng civilians is just not on and that Pak. will cooperate with India against such behaviour. He hasnt said that there will be coperation for IED's against Indian troops.

So is Mushi saying that the so called freedom fighters have been doing planting IEDS
and killing innocents in market places.

What will p ak is ta n do in such cases hand over them to india.Its just another non working agreemtns btw India and pakistan.

Where is dawood he is needed in india,where is salahudding?where is the other 20 odd wanted terrorists?

Whats mushraff doing with them?

 

[Skeptic786]

So is Mushi saying that the so called freedom fighters have been doing planting IEDS
and killing innocents in market places.

What will p ak is ta n do in such cases hand over them to india.Its just another non working agreemtns btw India and pakistan.

Where is dawood he is needed in india,where is salahudding?where is the other 20 odd wanted terrorists?

Whats mushraff doing with them?

Syed Salahudin has challenged Musharaf to hand him over to india if he has the courage.

lets wait and see mushy's response in the coming days.