Are Indian Minorities Backward?

[toxic_pus]

Well not so long ago around year 2007 I read this article I find it amusing how much things have changed in less than 2 years I guess India can change things round quite easily

BBC NEWS | World | South Asia | Why do Indian Muslims lag behind?

and I think the BBC is the most neutral source available.

Either you have not read the BBC article in its entirety or it’s the OP, with which you have done that hop, skip and jump routine. It appears to me that BBC story is actually supporting the OP, although the OP is more detailed in data.

Allow me to elucidate.

While looking for the reasons behind this so called backwardness of Muslims, the BBC article notes, among other things, that “it is the sheer apathy and ineptitude of the Indian state which has failed to provide equality of opportunity in health, education and employment.” The article goes on to conclude on this point that, “(t)his has hurt the poor - including the Muslim poor who comprise the majority of the community - most.” The article has noted, about 4 paragraphs before, that, “31% of Muslims are below the country's poverty line, just a notch above the lowest castes and tribes who remain the poorest of the poor.”

In other words, a large section of the Hindus aren’t any better, rather worse, than the Muslim population, because of this “sheer apathy and ineptitude of the Indian state”. Poverty has hurt us all - equally and without discrimination. This is precisely the point that the OP makes.

The article goes on to note:

“The plight of Indian Muslims also has a lot to do with the appalling quality of governance, unequal social order and lack of equality of opportunity in northern India where most of the community lives.

Populous Uttar Pradesh is home to nearly a fifth of Muslims (31 million) living in India, while Bihar has more than 10 million community members.”

UP and Bihar happen to be two of the most backward states in India. In a sense, the connection between this backwardness has more to do with poverty, than anything else, and unfortunately since majority of the Muslim population reside in these two states, the statistics always appear skewed against the Muslims.

The article quotes Mr Rangarajan, a historian, as saying, “Southern India is a different picture. Larger cultural and social movements have made education more accessible and self employment more lucrative benefiting a large number of Muslims.” BBC then goes on to acknowledge his observation by saying that, “(i)n Andhra Pradesh state, for example, 68% of Muslims are literate, higher than the state and national average. School enrolment rates for Muslim children are above 90% in Kerala and Tamil Nadu.” A point also raised by the OP, through data.

The OP and the BBC article are saying basically same thing. That the reason behind this so called Muslim backwardness is poverty, which in turn is result of callousness of the govt. That, poverty, and this callousness, have not only hurt the Muslims, but all segment of the society, including the Hindus. The above observation is supported by data, both by the BBC article and, in much more detail, the OP. The states which are as it is backward, have backward Muslim population, along with equally backward Hindu population, while the states which are more or less ahead economically, have Muslims, along with Hindus, living in much better conditions.

 

[toxic_pus]

Lastly the claim is why Muslims lag behind I don't doubt that they are poor but are they given a fair chance?

What exactly do you mean by "fair chance" here.

If you mean govt. jobs, then most of the govt. jobs require one to pass some all-India or state level competitive exams, which are open to all and sundry, as long as one is an Indian citizen.

In private sector, it is all about "who is the best" out there. Madrasa education, is grossly inadequate in this case.

You can read this article for a pretty balanced view about Muslim education and other problems.

What else do you mean by fair chance. Lack of access to schools, colleges, hospitals or similar facilities ? But then, every poor is suffering for this, not just the muslims.

 

[wtf]

I can't deny facts but I wish to ask you how much you know of a Muslim family setup secondly I also wish to ask you if you think that in India muslims were given an equal oppurtunity be honest the point remains clearly that minorities were given a tough time despite the secular claims.

Lastly the claim is why Muslims lag behind I don't doubt that they are poor but are they given a fair chance?

First of all, secular state means that everyone will be treated equally by the state, not that everyone will treat each other equally. Even if there are people who discriminate against each other, the state itself may be secular.
(Nevertheless a state that needs to be improved). I see nothing in Indian constitution that is biased against any religion.

About status of people....
I can't make a blanket claim about status of all people. I know from my experience that Muslims tend to end up in unorganized professions more than others. I think education levels explain a lot of this - but the question then becomes if Muslims have been historically deprived of education due to discrimination.

I think a better way to answer that question is to point you to
Sachar Committee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What he seems to say is that Muslim parents face hidden discrimination in school admissions, while women muslims are actively discouraged from getting educated. He then goes on to say that more data is needed


There was near consensus among the Muslims about the need to generate data to evaluate and address issues of Muslim backwardness. The need for data was undisputed as that alone would indicate whether backwardness amongst Muslims was a result of discrimination or not.

and

The widespread perception of discrimination among the Muslim community needs to be addressed. There are hardly any empirical studies that establish
discrimination.1 Research in this area needs to be encouraged but is particularly difficult at the moment due to non-availability of data.

 

[Zob]

hmm very intresting similarly HINDUS and PRASIS and AGHA KHANIS are very rich in pakistan....what is the point then......please calrify u posted something without a point what does wealth define.....

the TOPIC IS ARE INDIAN MINORITIES BACKWARD....let me throw the CAT amongst the pigeons here.....because come on i cannot let u INDIANS have a free ride even though the article doesn't prove anything....

my question is if the INDIAN MINOIRIES ARE NOT BACKWARD why aren't the represented in the army supreme court...intelligence agencies and government posts......yes they r liek the UNELECTED MANMOHAN SINGH.....or the symbol of SECULARISM abdul KALAM....ok who else do u got.....just thinknig not IMPLYING ANYTHING.....

like i said i can argue in PAKISTAN we had a HINDU CHIEF JUSTICE....so i guess in PAKISTAN MINORITIES ARE ALSO NOT BACKWARDS.....

 

[notsuperstitious]

I can't deny facts but I wish to ask you how much you know of a Muslim family setup secondly I also wish to ask you if you think that in India muslims were given an equal oppurtunity be honest the point remains clearly that minorities were given a tough time despite the secular claims.

Lastly the claim is why Muslims lag behind I don't doubt that they are poor but are they given a fair chance?

Bane blade - you mean only muslims right? because all the other minorities are doing better than hindus.

Its absolutely possible that people face discrimination. we all do, don't we because of our different identities? but to what extent? If you read the much talked about Sachar report, which many in india think is politically motivated. it gives an example of the low number of muslim IAS officers. If you just look at those numbers, one will easily conclude that there must be discrimination.

But IAS selection is two level - one is a written exam (which is purely quantitative for round 2). round 2 is an interview and hence subjective and hence this is where discrimination can come in. important to note that the % of muslims who get through the interview is the same as others. so the problem is at the written exam level - hence an education / choice / orientation issue.

If you look at the areas in which muslims absolutely shine in india - music, art, culture, entertainment, sport etc - these are areas that do not require education. may be there's something in it. maybe you should read the WSJ article abt Azim Premji, india's richest IT baron and you might get some hints. except in parts of south india, muslims have not got organized to run educational institutions etc, they've remained stuck in politics / religion. india's middle class is supported by education.

 

[dabong1]

I have a pet theory for which I have only anecdotal evidence. Let me know what you think.

Indian Muslims are poor because they don't let the women work. In Pakistan apparently only 2% of women are employed in formal sector (Women in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Maybe things are similar in India. That would bring household income down a lot.

Sorry found a paper.
http://www.krepublishers.com/02-Jou...hani-N/JSS-17-3-219-08-660-Sarikhani-N-Tt.pdf

You gave figures for muslm woman from pakistan and the muslims of pakistan are not as poor as the indian muslims......so how does your theory hold up for muslims in india?

 

[dabong1]

To explain even the small gap between hindus and muslims, and the bigger one between hindus / muslims and other minorities, look at the geographical distribution of these populations. the other minorities chiefly live in south india, punjab and maharashtra which are prosperous. hindus and muslims are spread over india BUT 50% of indian muslims live in the three poorest states in india - UP, Bihar and West Bengal.

Fair enough but its like me saying lets just takes facts and figures from the poorest areas of india and see what the stats say.
You cant cherry pick the areas you want the stats from to suit a certain agenda.

 

[dabong1]

.

But IAS selection is two level - one is a written exam (which is purely quantitative for round 2). round 2 is an interview and hence subjective and hence this is where discrimination can come in. important to note that the % of muslims who get through the interview is the same as others. so the problem is at the written exam level - hence an education / choice / orientation issue..


If you look at the areas in which muslims absolutely shine in india - music, art, culture, entertainment, sport etc - these are areas that do not require education. may be there's something in it. maybe you should read the WSJ article abt Azim Premji, india's richest IT baron and you might get some hints. except in parts of south india, muslims have not got organized to run educational institutions etc, they've remained stuck in politics / religion. india's middle class is supported by education.

I get it.... the muslims must be stupid....a bit like the blacks of america only good for running singing and dancing.

What about south africa under white rule......where the blacks not to blame for there lack of education and social status....nothing to do with the government.

 

[rubyjackass]

Since it is all about opportunities, here is an interesting article by Mr Nadeem Ul Haque, the former Vice Chancellor of PIDE, who touches upon this very issue, with Mr A.R.Rehman's Oscar feat as an allegory.
--------------------------
COMMENT: Jai Ho!
—Nadeem Ul Haque

We should be grateful that some Muslims remained in India and learned to compete. These Muslims are going to compete internationally and give us something to be proud of while our elites in Pakistan, who shun excellence and hard work, maintain their privilege and extravagance

Many of us watched the Oscars with a lump in our throats when AR Rehman was given a standing ovation by the American movie establishment. Rehman, a Muslim from a country we don’t consider friendly to Muslims, was eulogised by the Hollywood establishment, traditionally controlled by those of the Jewish persuasion. Rehman’s obvious talent overwhelmed them all. Jai ho!

There he stood, saying simple but powerful words: “I had a choice between love and hate. I chose love!” A simple Muslim of simple origins made us all proud with his talent. Jai ho!

What would he have been had he been in Pakistan?

He converted from Hinduism to Islam in 1989. Here, such a conversion would have put him in grave danger; quite possibly, some zealot might even have snuffed out his talent. Yet in his acceptance speech at the Oscars, at one point he said “Allah-o Akbar!” Jai AR Rehman!

For many years we have comforted ourselves by saying that Muslims have no opportunities in India and that Pakistan was made to give Muslims opportunities. Indeed, Pakistan has given some a lot of opportunities to get rich. There are numerous stories of excess wealth gained through government-dispensed licenses and plots, misuse of power, and other abuses of public office. Wealth has been created and the new class of rich shows off its Porsches, Range Rovers and other expensive toys. Their lifestyles could even dwarf some of the well-heeled rich and famous in India and the West. While we laud wealth and power, talent has no place in Pakistan.

The rest of us run around serving these princes. Talented musicians like AR Rehman play at the pleasure of this class. They play at their parties and the expensive weddings of their children; they play and the aristocracy hardly notices them. They do not even stay quiet during performances, pay no attention to the artists or give them the feeling of stardom. Because the stars are the aristocrats who managed to make their money through corruption and manipulation. Jai power!

In Pakistan, this would have been the fate of AR Rehman. He would have been a mere court musician. No Oscars, no recognition. Many a talented Pakistani musician has been forgotten. They leave behind some good music, of which we buy pirated versions. None is honoured. There are no Nur Jehan avenues or airports. No Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan squares, universities or buildings. No concerts; no awards and certainly no major movies that could get them to the Oscars.

We are all aware of how Bollywood is full of Indian Muslims. And they are widely respected in India. Darwin’s ideas seem to be at work: Indian Muslims are flowering under competition and showcasing major talent. Jai ho!

Darwin is right here too. We in Pakistan face no competition. Our path to success is rapid gain through actions such as raiding the exchequer, befriending the powerful, influence-peddling or power-brokering.

Lives of privilege — where the taxpayer picks up the tab for everything: from umrahs to polo, from mujras to free air travel, and from plots to stocks — have led to generational deterioration. Hard work is looked down upon and he who competes internationally is only a kammi kamin. Ministers, the well-connected and the powerful, are not supposed to dirty their hands or even consort with kammis like AR Rehman and Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan.

Why? The answer is simple. Our leaders wanted to save themselves the hard work of competition. They wanted and got easy rents — handouts from the government. The army, the bureaucracy, the landed and the licensed industrialist all got it easily. They took no risks, they did not innovate, and they developed no products. They competed against no one for their ill-gotten gains, nor was there any accountability. Kids now see that the path to success is rents and influence, and that hard work and talent does not pay. After all, what did we do to Dr Abdus Salam? So why work hard?

We do produce talent, for no country of 200 million can be devoid of talent. Hashim Khan and his family, Imran Khan and his cousins, several cricketers and hockey players, the wrestler Bashir, and, of course, Abdus Salam. Now thankfully a few younger people like Mohsin Hamid and Daniyal Moinuddin are beginning to blaze some sort of trail. Will our musicians and artists have the opportunity to vie for the Oscars? No, for our elites are too busy destroying institutions, and talent cannot emerge without institutions.

These few talented people struggle against huge odds, with little recognition at home. But most of our younger generation is lost. Rich kids are given to pleasure and privilege, and the poor are turning to religion out of desperation.

We should be grateful that some Muslims remained in India and learned to compete. These Muslims are going to compete internationally and give us something to be proud of while our elites in Pakistan, who shun excellence and hard work, maintain their privilege and extravagance.

So thank you, AR Rehman. Jai Indian Muslims!

Nadeem Ul Haque is former Vice Chancellor of PIDE. Email: nhaque_imf@yahoo.com

Thank you for this post.
I used to wonder why Rahman's oscar went unnoticed in Pakistan. It dint.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Fair enough but its like me saying lets just takes facts and figures from the poorest areas of india and see what the stats say.
You cant cherry pick the areas you want the stats from to suit a certain agenda.

Have no idea what you mean.What agenda?

And what abt the comparison with apartheid? Did i say anything abt apartheid? why are u trying to imply that when i say something abt india it means i'm saying there was no aparheid in south africa? such fallacies are proof that you have nothing to add.

South india is better educated than north india, so the north indians must be stupid by ur logic too. but the fact is that there are reasons for it, and they are not stupidity OR discrimination. Is that a problem YES, but not the one you imagine.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Thank you for this post.
I used to wonder why Rahman's oscar went unnoticed in Pakistan. It dint.

Yeah, but Zakir Hussain's Grammy went unnoticed even in india...

Yes in 2009!

 

[Bane Blade]

Well i only question the fact that do they really hold fair oppurtunity and secondly I only say so because of news I read through fair sources people who have read my posts would know I have nothing personal against India.

By fair oppurtunity I question that if Indian muslims have such a high populus why do they tend to lag behind or are considered inferior in some places of India.

 

[shravan]

Yeah, but Zakir Hussain's Grammy went unnoticed even in india...

Yes in 2009!

Many people get unnoticed in India (Ustad Bismillah Khan)....
-----

 

[shravan]

By fair oppurtunity I question that if Indian muslims have such a high populus why do they tend to lag behind or are considered inferior in some places of India.

Most of my Muslims friends are doing great in Govt. Jobs and are very well settled. They love India as it is.

They remaining you know why they are not doing well. Most of the Muslims who are not doing well in India celebrate when India loses cricket match with Pakistan. They are too religious.

 

[Bane Blade]

Most of my Muslims friends are doing great in Govt. Jobs and are very well settled. They love India as it is.

They remaining you know why they are not doing well. Most of the Muslims who are not doing well in India celebrate when India loses cricket match with Pakistan. They are too religious.

Generations have past now what I think is that they have grown distant from their fellow Indians and frankly I doubt it is love for Pakistan because honestly if kids are bought up watching Indian media they would hardly fall in love with us. Although I would love to know more.