What's new

Are Arab monarchies more suitable for Arab societies?

U8200

BANNED
Joined
May 23, 2015
Messages
206
Reaction score
-2
Country
United States
Location
Morocco
Israeli Druze Intellectual: Arab Spring Passed Over Monarchies Because They Are Better Suited To Nature Of Arab Societies

On March 1, 2015, Israeli Druze poet, writer, essayist and translator Dr. Salman Masalha, wrote on the liberal Arab website Middle East Transparent that the Arab Spring had impacted Arab republics but had passed over monarchies and emirates. He said that this is because the republics had not fulfilled their own lofty slogans on socialism, democracy, and freedom but had oppressed and tyrannized their people, while the monarchies, with all their flaws, are better suited to the nature of Arab societies, since they are "the natural continuation of this ingrained social structure in which tribal loyalty comes before all else."

"Here we are, approaching the end of the fourth year of the uprisings that erupted in more than one country across the Arab world, from East to West. I intentionally say 'uprisings,' since what happened in recent years in all these countries cannot in any way be termed 'revolution' in the political science sense of the word.

"A look at the political systems in the Arab countries where the people rose up challenges us with fundamental questions that we must answer honestly and unequivocally, without sentimental slogans that paralyze reason. The questions that we must inevitably pose to the public are: Why have these outbreaks and uprisings taken place in some Arab countries and not in others? How do these countries differ from each other? What caused some countries to emerge from these uprisings without bloodshed, while bloodshed is still the defining characteristic in others?

"Four years on, the observer can discern several aspects of the coalescing picture concerning the type of political systems common in the [Arab] world. The Arab world appears to be divided into two parts [in terms of regimes]. The interesting thing is that these popular Arab uprisings mainly struck countries with republican regimes, while the monarchies and emirates remained outside this [cycle] of uprisings. This phenomenon should be deeply discussed, and we Arabs should ponder its circumstances. We [cannot] bury our heads in the sand or ignore it as if it did not exist.

"To understand this phenomenon, we must look at the nature of Arab societies, far away from slogans that arouse emotions but are unhelpful and do not pave the way to a thorough examination of the events around us in order to emerge from our Arab crises. When I say 'the nature of societies,' I mean the social heritage that has continued for hundreds of years, passed down from the pre-Islamic period to Islam, and to the present day.

"Since Arab societies are tribal in nature, the various forms of monarchies and emirates are the natural continuation of this ingrained social structure in which tribal loyalty comes before all else. Therefore, once colonialism was gone from Arab countries, the monarchies and emirates took its place, in a natural way that is in line with the nature of tribal society.

"But the global struggle between the two main power blocs following World War II shook the Arab world, and as a result, there were several military coups that toppled several monarchies. These were not 'revolutions,' though that is what they were called, but mere military revolts that grabbed power while hiding behind lofty slogans such as socialism, liberty and democracy, and other empty rhetoric. In effect, all these coups were nothing more than a usurpation of Arab societies. None of these regimes [that spouted] the rhetoric of Arabism actualized a single one of the slogans they had touted – on the contrary, they appropriated and squandered these peoples' sources of income. Furthermore, they provided no freedom or socialism whatsoever. But above all else, they ruled with an iron fist, tyrannizing everyone.

"Yes, these lands of false Arabism are the very ones in which the Arab peoples rose up – while the Arab monarchies and emirates were spared this calamity and bloodshed. This is not because of their petrodollars, which is what some ignoramuses on the left try to say – since some Arab monarchies, such as Jordan, are not at all wealthy but have also escaped [regime] destabilization. The answer is simple: In addition to what I said above, we must compare the monarchies' relationship with their people to that between the republican regimes of deception and their people. A simple comparison will clearly tip the scales in favor of the monarchies.

"Crushing tyranny, enslavement, and impoverishment of the people have become the attributes of the regimes of false slogans, while over the years the monarchies have become more sympathetic towards their peoples, despite the justifiable criticism that could be levelled at the failures of these monarchic regimes. However, if we strive for the truth about ourselves and about those around us, we must recognize reality as it is, for better or for worse.

"The tribal nature of Arab societies is deeply embedded in the past, and its roots date back through Arab history to the pre-Islamic era.
Statements attributed to the new Saudi king Salman bin 'Abd Al-'Aziz, as cited in an article by Talal Salman, [editor of the Lebanese newspaper] Al-Safir, may clarify this matter. Talal Salman, who met the Emir Salman some four decades ago, said: 'The emir Salman (now king) summarized the issue to me in simple sentences: 'We are the sons of this land. We are not foreign messengers or occupiers. We are not Albanians like the family of Muhammad 'Ali [Pasha][2] that ruled Egypt for 150 years. We are the sons of the sand and the palm, sons of the sun and the moon.[Salman] was quiet for a moment and then added with a smile: 'It is enough to tell you that one of our ancestors is Musaylimah the Liar.'[3] (Al-Safir, January 26, 2015).

"In other words, the tribal roots that stretch throughout history are authentic Arab roots, not just Islamic ones. It is true that [these tribal roots] – as the shrewd king candidly stated – stretch as far back as Musaylimah the Liar himself, for better or for worse. His revelation indicates the depth of [these] roots."


---

Perhaps the idea of democracy is either not suitable or too early in Arab culture. That's not really something to be ashamed about, because countries like Russia still haven't got the hang of democracy - it took Europe many centuries to adjust to it.

Maybe monarchies are the way to go? King Sisi anyone? :cheesy:



 
Arabs are not special... they either never tried long enough or never allowed to try democracy.
I think its quite condescending to say arabs (or russians) cannot have democracy, they are not good enough for it.
 
The first monarchies on the planet (recorded) are native to the Arab world just like the first city states.

This too.

Proto-democratic societies
In recent decades scholars have explored the possibility that advancements toward democratic government occurred somewhere else (i.e. other than Greece) first, asGreece developed its complex social and political institutions long after the appearance of the earliest civilizations in Egypt and the Near East.[4]

History of democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anyway this article is quite silly. Tribalism in the Arab world is nothing like the "Sub-Saharan African stereotype". I would describe it more as extended families (often very large ones) with power and influence that runs along the power in the hands of the state, clergy etc.

Also it's not about whether republics or monarchies are good or bad. It's not so much the system by name but actual actions that matters and of course the quality of the leaders. China for instance is a shinning example of a highly successful dictatorship (Western viewpoint) while North Korea is a huge failure. Not to compare them directly of course but from a Western viewpoint neither is a democracy. Same story with Singapore in the past.


Of course monarchies tend to have a stronger social fabric and backing from the society as ALL Arab monarchies are NATIVE and have ruled for centuries upon centuries.

It's like comparing the legitimacy of the British Crown with that of a newly founded monarchy like Belgium. One is extremely stable, popular and deeply rooted the other (Belgian) is struggling to this day almost 200 years after to get recognition from the people.

Add to that the fact that most "republican" (by name only) leaders in the Republican Arab states were usurpers (not elected democratically) and dictators, more often then not much more brutal than any monarchs.

I am definetely pro-monarchy (admitedly I might be biased due to my background) but monarchies and democracies can coexist perfectly. It's called constitutional monarchies.

A monarchy like Kuwait is almost such an example (non-Western standards of course) and that will be the future development of ALL the monarchies in the GCC if they want to survive as the world is quickly changing despite the Arab world being a bastion of traditionalism, often ancient one.

Government of Kuwait - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My quick two cents.
 
Last edited:
well monarchies are far to be models, from Morocco retard king to dictators of the ME supporting fanatism
but anyway what we can see as "republics "??? seriously?
Syria is far to be a democracy , Turkey is becoming islamist , only Egypt and Iraq (if they didn't have much troubles) and Algeria and Tunisia ... are in the good path .
good luck to them.
now that Turkey model disappeared ,we need all a new one .

Are you saying Morocco, Jordan and emirates are not better off than Libya under Gaddafi, Iraq under Saddam, Syria under Assad, Egypt under Mubarak etc? seems to me they are and as the author said, rebellion has come to mostly non-monarchies.

Arabs are not special... they either never tried long enough or never allowed to try democracy.
I think its quite condescending to say arabs (or russians) cannot have democracy, they are not good enough for it.

Don't think it is?

Some people have different societies and cultures. Are we to say that democracy HAS to be for everyone? I personally think it's the best system, but who's to say a one-size-fits-all for the world will work?
 
Are you saying Morocco, Jordan and emirates are not better off than Libya under Gaddafi, Iraq under Saddam, Syria under Assad, Egypt under Mubarak etc? seems to me they are and as the author said, rebellion has come to mostly non-monarchies.



Don't think it is?

Some people have different societies and cultures. Are we to say that democracy HAS to be for everyone? I personally think it's the best system, but who's to say a one-size-fits-all for the world will work?

Of course which every sane person can see but people with an agenda won't admit it. Arab monarchies have their ills (which MENA regime does not compared to for instance peaceful, homogenous, tiny (population wise) and "isolated" Scandinavia?) but obviously everything (almost) is better in the Arab monarchies. Even those not blessed with amble natural resources.

Democracy is not a universal system in the sense that democratic systems are identical from Denmark to the US because that's obviously not the case. The differences are HUGE in some instances. Of course I am not talking about the basic fundamentals which I believe fit everywhere on the planet and which at one point will dominate the politics of the world (regardless of system) universally.

That's at least what the tide is telling me.
 
Are you saying Morocco, Jordan and emirates are not better off than Libya under Gaddafi, Iraq under Saddam, Syria under Assad, Egypt under Mubarak etc? seems to me they are and as the author said, rebellion has come to mostly non-monarchies.



Don't think it is?

Some people have different societies and cultures. Are we to say that democracy HAS to be for everyone? I personally think it's the best system, but who's to say a one-size-fits-all for the world will work?
democracy IS the best practice when it comes to governance... anything else is unsuitable for a large group of people who know they are equal to everybody and society should be fair.
Even large primates demand equality and fairness, if you give something less to them than others for same task, they will get annoyed.

The transition to democracy is sometimes violent (europe did not become democratic by magic), sometimes relatively smooth. What we are doing here is, taking one sample at a particular time(bit like a small trend in a stock graph) and saying this is how it is.. always.

Remember, India was called a basket case, we were on the brinks when we started. People say black people cant govern themselves, because many african countries faced war and famine.
Considering the progress, you should see you need to make the beginning somewhere. Initially it will be less pretty than you are used to.
 
Democracy is not suitable for countries where people are not ready for democracy because democracy means the opinion of majority is taken as the sole source of legitimacy so if the majority is misguided then the whole country will be misguided. In every developed Asian country, democracy was only introduced after a period of authoritarian rule that took some time to industrialise those countries and increase the standards of education. In some countries, rulers openly said that their citizens are not ready for democracy. Once the citizens of a state are educated and intelligent enough to base their judgement logically then democracy should be introduced otherwise it's going to be a disaster as seen in many other developing countries. Western nations and some groups in developing world don't understand that democracy is not universal.

 
Of course which every sane person can see but people with an agenda won't admit it. Arab monarchies have their ills (which MENA regime does not compared to for instance peaceful, homogenous, tiny (population wise) and "isolated" Scandinavia?) but obviously everything (almost) is better in the Arab monarchies. Even those not blessed with amble natural resources.

Democracy is not a universal system in the sense that democratic systems are identical from Denmark to the US because that's obviously not the case. The differences are HUGE in some instances. Of course I am not talking about the basic fundamentals which I believe fit everywhere on the planet and which at one point will dominate the politics of the world (regardless of system) universally.

That's at least what the tide is telling me.

You said in your first post that Arab monarchies are native and have ruled for centuries, but isn't the Saudi monarchy relatively new?

I can't tell you how many times I've spoken to people about Arab political systems and they tell me "Arabs need a firm leader" and all this nonsense. Of course every country needs a credible and strong government, but they talk as if Arabs need to be 'whipped' into shape. They always cite Saddam and how he "kept the country together" - I know many Arabs are still fond of him, but he kept the country 'together' by killing and torturing many people.

I too quite like monarchies even though I have a problem with people being 'born' into it and not becoming leaders through merit.

I just think at a time when you have what is basically regional catastrophe, that perhaps the monarchy-type model could be useful until such time as people are naturally ready to progress to other systems.

And yes, different countries have different versions of democracy.
 
democracy IS the best practice when it comes to governance... anything else is unsuitable for a large group of people who know they are equal to everybody and society should be fair.
Even large primates demand equality and fairness, if you give something less to them than others for same task, they will get annoyed.

The transition to democracy is sometimes violent (europe did not become democratic by magic), sometimes relatively smooth. What we are doing here is, taking one sample at a particular time(bit like a small trend in a stock graph) and saying this is how it is.. always.

Remember, India was called a basket case, we were on the brinks when we started. People say black people cant govern themselves, because many african countries faced war and famine.
Considering the progress, you should see you need to make the beginning somewhere. Initially it will be less pretty than you are used to.
Compare democratic India with authoritarian China before you make such statements.
 
It seems to be human nature that groups of humans need leaders in order to efficiently organize themselves to produce food, shelter, security, medical skills and the myriad other things humans need to survive in a natural world. One of the ways political systems have differed is the manner in which this leadership is selected. The reality is that all of the systems tried have produced both successes and failures. Good kings and bad kings. Good elected leaders and horrible elected leaders (i.e., Hitler). I think the system that is best is one which allows for correction. If the system throws up a destructive or totally incompetent leader, is there a mechanism for discarding that leader and trying again? This is why the system must be "constitutional" in that the system has corrective mechanisms that can transcend destructive leaders. So a monarchy could be better than a republic if (1) the royal family produces excellent leaders, or (2) a bad king can be constitutionally replaced with a better (more competent) king.
 
You said in your first post that Arab monarchies are native and have ruled for centuries, but isn't the Saudi monarchy relatively new?

I can't tell you how many times I've spoken to people about Arab political systems and they tell me "Arabs need a firm leader" and all this nonsense. Of course every country needs a credible and strong government, but they talk as if Arabs need to be 'whipped' into shape. They always cite Saddam and how he "kept the country together" - I know many Arabs are still fond of him, but he kept the country 'together' by killing and torturing many people.

I too quite like monarchies even though I have a problem with people being 'born' into it and not becoming leaders through merit.

I just think at a time when you have what is basically regional catastrophe, that perhaps the monarchy-type model could be useful until such time as people are naturally ready to progress to other systems.

And yes, different countries have different versions of democracy.

If you consider almost 300 years as "relatively new" then you are right. Notice, that there is a difference between dynasty and the monarchy as a whole. The House of Saud have ruled all of KSA for 83 years and for 200 years before that large areas of today's KSA (Najd). In what is today KSA you have had dynasties/ruling families going back millenniums. Same with today's Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Egypt etc.

Now to give you an easy example to understand. The current British monarchy is around 1200 years old (if my memory serves me right) but the UK has been ruled by DOZENS of dynasties too. Some ruled for longer than others. The current one (House of Windsor) are actual Germans that gained the throne after intermarrying with Queen Victoria in 1840. Prince Albert to be precise.

Albert, Prince Consort - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Queen Victoria herself was a German (House of Hannover).

Before that it was the House of Hannover (Germans too) and the dynasty will change hands when Prince Charles will become the monarch as he belongs to a different family/lineage/royal family line than his mother, the Queen. Ironically Germans too (House of Oldenburg).:lol:

The Hashemites of Hijaz that ruled until 1924 had ruled that part of Arabia for almost 1 millennium! There has never been such a long lasting dynasty in Europe for instance. The only one rivaling this (still extant to this day) is the Japanese Imperial family.

I think that comes from people who have not know anything else. In the wider picture Arab dictators (outside of Saddam and the Al-Assad family) were/are quite harmless if we are comparing them to fairly recent European and Asian dictators. Just look at the number of casualties the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao etc. caused. On another scale altogether. Not even comparable.

Mubarak which you mentioned earlier was obviously not an democratic leader but was he a brutal dictator in the mold of Saddam and Assad? Of course not. Neither Gaddafi until he went berserk.

It's quite a complex discussion and I am not sure if this section of PDF is the ideal place for such discussions. Many ignorants as you know.:lol:

In any case there is plenty of material about this especially post-Arab "Spring" that you should google. The best material is from native Arabic speakers and professors but most of the material is in Arabic and yet to be translated to English.
 
Compare democratic India with authoritarian China before you make such statements.
yes i compared.. china's economic resurgence is a relatively recent phenomena, they had to kill millions to get to the conclusion that capitalism works... that wont happen in a democracy.
The danger of take one test case each and allowing it to derive conclusion is, well dangerous.. :p: why not compare china to south korea, a much more propsperious country but with similar work ethics and mindset. why not malayasia.. another east asian country, why not taiwan, who are fundamentally same people as chinese.

Democracy is best practice because it works for all sorts of people, brown, yellow, white and black. When soviets were doing miracles in space tech in 60s, many thought, hey may be they got their political system right too, because they seem to be good at science/tech. We know how wrong that conclusion was.
 
Are you saying Morocco, Jordan and emirates are not better off than Libya under Gaddafi, Iraq under Saddam, Syria under Assad, Egypt under Mubarak etc? seems to me they are and as the author said, rebellion has come to mostly non-monarchies.
Jordan is the best one.
Moroccan leader is not smart .. it reminds me the stupid kings who didn't have choice to lead a country in France. "king" is not a good solution .. someone being elected someone being educated and having been selected to be smart in studies and action... should lead.. not a guy by its genetics

but of course i would not compare to terrible dictators you quote

emirates ... i worked there ... sorry to say but it shows population is too much conservative , backyard
and nothing can change for good until the people are less conservative and start be educated
same for lot of countries there, but worst are the dictators that don't allow any critics

you know ... Iran tried to brainwash Iranians and avoid Iranians to be educated after revolution,
it didn't work . but sadly it is always possible to create a legion of uneducated people not aware for change being good for them

what we all deserve , it is a work for better leaders . and that leadership would be much more a work from the society. lot of our countries are too much "mafia style" countries .

you know ... in Iran for exemple you see these rich guys.girls in pics like they are westerners like people
yeah sure ... but most of them became rich because working with bad guys in Iran
these people didn't care when middle class and poor class were in streets against Ahmadinejad

i believe strongly that the major class important for democracy is : middle class
an educated middle class
when we have strong educated middle class, in any of our countries, then we can start to say "it is fine"
until that, we are backwards
 
You said in your first post that Arab monarchies are native and have ruled for centuries, but isn't the Saudi monarchy relatively new?

I can't tell you how many times I've spoken to people about Arab political systems and they tell me "Arabs need a firm leader" and all this nonsense. Of course every country needs a credible and strong government, but they talk as if Arabs need to be 'whipped' into shape. They always cite Saddam and how he "kept the country together" - I know many Arabs are still fond of him, but he kept the country 'together' by killing and torturing many people.

I too quite like monarchies even though I have a problem with people being 'born' into it and not becoming leaders through merit.

I just think at a time when you have what is basically regional catastrophe, that perhaps the monarchy-type model could be useful until such time as people are naturally ready to progress to other systems.

And yes, different countries have different versions of democracy.

They are right , even in 21 century , most Arab society are tribal ...
Democracy is a joke for tribal society ....
 
Anyway lastly honestly speaking then there are positives and negatives about most systems. Personally I can easily picture myself living anywhere in the West but also in "non-democratic" areas of the world like GCC and China. It's all about needs and culture at the end of the day.

That's why democracy is different in every democratic state and that's the beauty of it all.

My preferred option in regards to the GCC would be a constitutional monarchy and an elected parliament. In other words a more developed version of the Kuwaiti system. A system that ironically has been criticized by Kuwaitis for being too chaotic and for hindering progress due to the difficulty of reaching consensus (sounds familiar if you live in the "democratic world", lol). Many Kuwaitis believe that a more "autocratic" system is more beneficial.

In any case I doubt that the average Qatari, Emirati, Saudi Arabian etc. (especially those well-off and Muslims which tend to be the vast, vast majority) are crying to sleep at night because they cannot elect a politician who at the end of the day is another power-hungry person (most of the time).

In general politics is poison if you ask me.

@U8200

Thanks for "activating" the Farsi cousin! Let's try to include Iran in yet another Arabic topic….:lol:
 

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom