Apache for Pakistan? Possibility

[Quwa]

The recent AFM report on the PA Cobras suggested that the AH-64 is in contention for the PA's future gunship requirement. Although I always thought PA would go for T-129, I think certain issues suggest otherwise:

1) T-129 will not be available to Pakistan for a while...I heard 2014. It would not make sense for PA to dry up Cobra for so long...would it be possible?

2) Attack helicopters can be seen as COIN, low-intensity & assymetrical weapon-systems. If the U.S. is planning to invest more in upgrading Pakistan's capability to fight the Taliban, Al Qaeda, etc, then the U.S. may at least partially fund a Pakistani gunship order.

3) Unlike T-129 and even AH-1Z...the AH-64 has multiple operators, in particular Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt and Kuwait. So we know that Pakistan has multiple sources to gain maintenance support from in case relations with U.S. turn sour...essentially an issue similar to the F-16s.

4) We know AH-64 is more or less a mature platform.

5) Cost; right now it appears that T-129 and AH-64D would more or less cost the PA the same amount. Except with AH-64D we may see U.S. support in financing the system...especially if the Frontier Corps becomes joins the Regular PA. If FC does become part of PA, then it will form the centre of PA's COIN forces...and AH-64Ds could be seen as support to FC.

Based on the above and other reports such as Pakistan wanting Predator drones; the induction of Erieye & Block-52+; the growing net-centric capability within PA infantry, etc. Would this make Pakistan the first non-NATO country to employ such advanced measures in COIN & assymetrical warfare?

 

[HAIDER]

Six apache were approved by Bush adminstration 2001, i think. But offer never exceuted.
Reason unknown.

US to give Apache attack helicopters to Pakistan

Muhammad Najeeb in Islamabad

The Pakistan army is all set to receive a batch of six Apache attack helicopters from the US early next month, after nearly a decade-long arms embargo, reports said.

The six AH-64D Long Bow Apaches will be part of the $73 million American assistance to Pakistan announced last week to strengthen its western borders with Afghanistan.

Although it is not possible to confirm the version of these choppers, it is believed they will be either AH-64 or AH-64D, a report in Al-Akhbar daily said.

The US on November 7 announced it would provide Pakistan with $73 million in emergency funds to safeguard the security of its borders, particularly with Afghanistan.

Assistance will include helicopters and planes, land vehicles, communications gear, night vision goggles and also direly needed training.

The batch of six Apaches comes after President Pervez Musharraf promised the US authorities he would launch a crackdown on cross-border movement along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border but required help in terms of military hardware including helicopters, spare parts for Pakistan's fleet of F-16s and other equipment.

Musharraf and his team during talks with US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld had demanded greater military assistance from Washington for security of its borders and vital nuclear installations.

Pakistan's nuclear assets are guarded by air capping done by F-16s but due to non-availability of spares Pakistan had to cut down flying hours of its F-16s.

Another report in a Pakistani daily said the country would soon receive the first shipment of spares for its depleting fleet of F-16s.

Islamabad believes international concerns about the safety of Pakistan's nuclear assets can only be put at rest if the country is provided with state-of-the-art ground and air equipment for the security of nuclear installations.

Unrest by religious organisations which oppose Pakistan's decision to support the US-led strikes in Afghanistan have sparked off fears of a threat to the Musharraf regime, and consequently of nuclear installations falling into the wrong hands.

"The batch of six Apache helicopters will give lethal teeth to the Pakistan Army, which has not inducted any top of the line system into its inventory for more than 10 years now," said a defence analyst.

It recently inducted Ukrainian tanks and some very insignificant defence systems.

The AH-64 attack helicopter's four wings hard-points can carry 16 Hellfire missiles or 76 rockets (or a mix of these weapons) and the under fuselage turret is designed to collapse harmlessly upwards in crash landing.

It also houses a 30mm chain gun with 12,000 rounds of ammunition. The entire structure is designed to withstand hits of any type of ammunition up to 23mm calibre.

The AH-64 chain gun can disable a tank from 1.5 km and the Hellfire missiles have a range of 6 km. Apache's new version AH-64D can use radar-guided Hellfires, which can be used in a 'fire and forget' fashion.

Greece, the US and the United Arab Emirates are using Apaches AH-64 at present.

Indo-Asian News Service

 

[Energon]

Wouldn't it be more cost effective to stick with Cobras?

 

[JK!]

I'd rather see AH2 Rooivalk II from South Africa as this has commonality in engines with Puma helicopters already in service with Pakistan.

The conditions in South Africa like terrain and climate would make this a more suitable option in my opinion.

Plus I quite like the idea of Pakistan having Mokopa missiles (similar to hellfire)

 

[baqai]

Although Longbow is a strong platform but keeping drifts in american policy i would rather want us getting a better attack copter from other nation

 

[Blackpearl]

A lot has been discussed on the same topic , in other threads.
Just to remind here, that Pakistan, recently in 2007, has received 12 refurbished cobra helicopters, with advanced avionics in addition to 20 cobras already held with army aviation. These helicopters hav the potential to serve Army, till next 5-7 years. There is no need to hav a new technology, and in this case, USA will definitely provide AH-64 A models, refurbished, or which are phased out of US Army service as surplus.

USA will never allow Pakistan to hav Longbow D models.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

PA can not afford to buy either new or old Apaches, unless they are handed over for free which is "unlikely".
the best close air support platform for PA would be Ah-1Z, and a squadron of "A-10"!

 

[IceCold]

So how about the chinese Z-9WA night attack helicopter? As little as we become dependent on the US, the better it will be for all of us in the coming future. We are already inducting the naval version of this helicopter, so why not go for the attack version as well. Besides if desire we can perhaps ask for a full TOT.
Here are the details on Z-9W/WA

Z-9W/WA Attack Helicopter - SinoDefence.com

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I don't see the advantage, from a COIN POV, of having a platform more advanced than the Cobra's we currently have.

However if the argument is that a more advanced platform serves a "dual role" - i.e. is just as capable as the Cobra's in COIN, but also fills the requirements for the conventional military, the added cost for a more advanced platform might be worth it.

 

[fatman17]

Six apache were approved by Bush adminstration 2001, i think. But offer never exceuted.
Reason unknown.

there is no truth to the article posted. at this time AH-64 is not for sale to the PA Aviation.

 

[JK!]

So how about the chinese Z-9WA night attack helicopter? As little as we become dependent on the US, the better it will be for all of us in the coming future. We are already inducting the naval version of this helicopter, so why not go for the attack version as well. Besides if desire we can perhaps ask for a full TOT.
Here are the details on Z-9W/WA

Z-9W/WA Attack Helicopter - SinoDefence.com

Z9 is not a dedicated attack helicopter its just a utilty fitted with anti tank missiles.

We'd be better off waiting for WZ10 to mature as a platform.

 

[IceCold]

there is no truth to the article posted. at this time AH-64 is not for sale to the PA Aviation.

And they never will be for sale untill the time when finally US decides to discard them and need a place such as pakistan for dumping purpose. They only sell us things which in noway are used anymore, have nearly ended their life span and are on the verge of their retirement and then shout on the top of their voice how they have provided us with this so called aid and pakistanies ripped them of their money by not doing much for WOT. Even with the cobras, they are nothing more then a liability on the PA aviation unit which becomes even more due to the lack of spares. Not once have these cobras performed well in WOT.

 

[IceCold]

Z9 is not a dedicated attack helicopter its just a utilty fitted with anti tank missiles.

We'd be better off waiting for WZ10 to mature as a platform.

It can still perform for the PA for COIN operations with a little modifications, atleast we would not need to worry about the damn spares as in the case for cobras.

 

[JK!]

It can still perform for the PA for COIN operations with a little modifications, atleast we would not need to worry about the damn spares as in the case for cobras.

Well I suppose they could give it a Dhruv ALH style upgrade.

 

[faz101]

And they never will be for sale untill the time when finally US decides to discard them and need a place such as pakistan for dumping purpose. They only sell us things which in noway are used anymore, have nearly ended their life span and are on the verge of their retirement and then shout on the top of their voice how they have provided us with this so called aid and pakistanies ripped them of their money by not doing much for WOT. Even with the cobras, they are nothing more then a liability on the PA aviation unit which becomes even more due to the lack of spares. Not once have these cobras performed well in WOT.

Icebomb,

Agree with you regarding US "aid" but from all that I've heard the Cobras have been very useful alongside the SOTF (the air assault unit trained up for COIN ops in Waziristan). The AFM article actually quotes an op in Waziristan where the Cobras were decisive in helping to extract the SSG after an aborted heli-drop.

regards.