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Any misuse of arms supplied to Pak will be probed: US

No Karan...if we go by that logic then every damn thing politicians say is nothing but lip service...Consider this if India and Pak go for a war don't you think US will be neutral if not come all the way to support India(Long term interest)??? Don't you think that use of weapons by Pak can then lead to sanctions??? Anyways feel free to disagree because in the end only time will tell if this is lip service or not...


I go with his words as well...However that doesn't mean Indian string lobby presence in US is also doing the same....



Any sane person will choose that...and I know you are one...So no issues with that...However if we look into History Pakistan Army is known for taking bold but conceptually weak steps which are based on some fantasy assumptions....The moment Pakistan got her nukes test there comes the Kargil even though a bus Yatra was on to resolve issues......Their success in Sir Creek and India's debacle in 1962 lead them to 1965 war....So you never know...




Negative...IMO our border with China is peaceful and that's why insignificant...Try to fuel Tibet region with some support and see the real face of dragon...so comparing CHina border with Kashmir irritant is like comparing apples with peanuts...




No Buddy...You ar eonly partly right...India's presence in AF non-militarily cannot negate the fact that western border will be having killer machines...Again as i said 18 odd F16's won't be a big headache for us however if you are in a position to deny even peanuts to adversary then why not...We should at least try and this statement from congressman is a welcome step in that regard....


I dont have strong disagreements with your view. Am just aligned to a different priority in diplomacy..

I think you misunderstood my China comment. What I meant was that due to Chinese enormous growth, all its other problems have become more of irritants for it. And thats what we should aim for.....
 
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You are very wrong there about your assesment of hegemonic mentality but anyways its your view and you are most welcome to keep it the way it is....

han han, thanks.

Good for you...However lets not undermine the importance of congress members...They can put pressure on Govt to change..they have done in the past and they can do it in future...that is why you need to use your lobby(which you do) to keep them on same page....

yeah, that's true too.

Bolded part is important in my opinion..However its a two way street...

always is; that's why they call it a partnership.

My point was that this is not the right time for U.S. to cause any irritations un-necessarily. A lot is at stake here. We want the security situation in Afghanistan to improve immediately, we may have the key to that. Americans and ISAF are eager to vacate Afghanistan, as the war (militarily) is going nowhere.

We have a porous and historically difficult-to-monitor border with Afghanistan. Foreign forces can withdraw anytime they want; it isnt their countries (and it sure as hell isn't indian) which is affected. It is our country Pakistan that is affected the most. Iran too to a large extent. We have suffered economic losses, and endured a not-so-favourable security environment especially here in the Northwest & FATA.

Basically, if our concerns are not heeded to then it has adverse impact on our level of cooperation. The U.S. doesn't want that to happen. We Pakistanis love our arms and weapons. They make us smile. When there is talk (rants) about blocking sales or yapping in Congress and Senate about how we will use them to bomb indians, it annoys us. We will decide how they are used. Defence needs and requirements exist, and they shall be met.



Sorry but have no access to what is being really discussed apart from these headlines...Do you???

For better or for worse, no i do not. Did I imply otherwise?

Anyways it would be kiddish to ignore comments made in Press...

Those were my personal views. This is a forum.

Anyways how do you know nothing come out ;)...just kidding

what

There is a difference b/w Press finding out something and making hue and cry about it vs sharing an official statement....

can't argue with that


Good for you...However looking at your current needs(threat perception) vs your indegenous capabilities and support from China you still have a significant dependency on US and other western countries to give you that killer punch....

which is why Pakistan hopes to project an image of a peace-loving & responsible country not just to U.S. but to the world; we just ask the international community to learn our concerns, needs, requirements, etc.



On one side you have ever growing india on other side you have Pakistan crippeled by US sanctions

and I already stated that this is no new phenomenon. It's happened to us at least 2-3 other times. When it wasnt sanctions, it was embargos. I see it as a blessing in disguise as much as I see it as a bone of contention and cause of mistrust.

As long as Pakistan has the means to counter this so-called ''growing india'' then we can get good sleep at the end of the day. Given our limited means, and ground realities --- i'd say the 3 Services have done a fantastic job under their competent leaderships.


Up to you...I did explain you why such things should not be taken lightly...We have nothing to loose and if pressure worked you have lot of things at stake...

will it work?

You tried blocking our arms sales (despite your own buildup), you tried getting Pakistan to be declared a terrorist state, you travelled the world trying to tarnish Pakistan's image.

Nobody really paid too much attention; at least not enough to cause any substantial change to the 'status-quo'

indian have a bad habit of making the occasional provacative statement, which is most unfortunate. Sometimes we need to remind the indians that we are a nuclear power, and we have all the means at our disposal to defend our territory from attempted aggression.
 
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Since the post is getting bigger I am deleting the part where i am more or less in agreement with you....

Basically, if our concerns are not heeded to then it has adverse impact on our level of cooperation. The U.S. doesn't want that to happen. We Pakistanis love our arms and weapons. They make us smile. When there is talk (rants) about blocking sales or yapping in Congress and Senate about how we will use them to bomb indians, it annoys us. We will decide how they are used. Defence needs and requirements exist, and they shall be met.

Nothing wrong with it... However with the same coin when we see a country who is portraying as our friend provide defence equipments to an adversary that too on easy loans then we do feel its our right to object to it...


As long as Pakistan has the means to counter this so-called ''growing india'' then we can get good sleep at the end of the day. Given our limited means, and ground realities --- i'd say the 3 Services have done a fantastic job under their competent leaderships.

Congratulation and no doubt about it...However you would agree it is getting tougher to maintain the parity......


will it work?
Who knows may be it will.... Do you think you will have the same leverage once NATO is out of AF???

You tried blocking our arms sales (despite your own buildup), you tried getting Pakistan to be declared a terrorist state, you travelled the world trying to tarnish Pakistan's image.

Nobody really paid too much attention; at least not enough to cause any substantial change to the 'status-quo'
You are right about the bolded part but IMO world has changed after 9/11....Today world sees Pakistan as epicenter of terrorism and indian weightage has increased...Has it increased enough obviously not...Will it increase in the near future - well sign are there but no one can predict future.....So statement like these only suggest that there are people right there in US camps who do consider our concerns and right diplomacy sometimes can bring in unexpected...


indian have a bad habit of making the occasional provacative statement, which is most unfortunate. Sometimes we need to remind the indians that we are a nuclear power, and we have all the means at our disposal to defend our territory from attempted aggression.

The feeling is mutual....
 
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I dont have strong disagreements with your view. Am just aligned to a different priority in diplomacy..
Don't want to sound like a thick head but as said before that any influence that we gain in AF is bonus...Our main priority is to ensure our conventional superiority over Pakistan and keep widening the gap...


I think you misunderstood my China comment. What I meant was that due to Chinese enormous growth, all its other problems have become more of irritants for it. And thats what we should aim for.....

Thats what i am countering...We are not supporting any cause as far as tibet is concerned(forget about providing logistics - weapons etc) to wage a war agaisnt China unlike Pakistan role viz-a-viz Kashmir...The day GOI start that TIBET issue will no longer be taken as irritant...A peaceful but unresolved border is different from terrorist infused(that too from only one side) unresolved border...

Having said it i totally agree that we should put all our energies into growing bigger and bigger...Rest of the things will fall in place...However IMO you cannot overlook killings of your own people every now and then over the hands of these pigs.... So yes keep growing and keep checking Pakistan and for that matter China....
 
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Don't want to sound like a thick head but as said before that any influence that we gain in AF is bonus...Our main priority is to ensure our conventional superiority over Pakistan and keep widening the gap...




Thats what i am countering...We are not supporting any cause as far as tibet is concerned(forget about providing logistics - weapons etc) to wage a war agaisnt China unlike Pakistan role viz-a-viz Kashmir...The day GOI start that TIBET issue will no longer be taken as irritant...A peaceful but unresolved border is different from terrorist infused(that too from only one side) unresolved border...

Having said it i totally agree that we should put all our energies into growing bigger and bigger...Rest of the things will fall in place...However IMO you cannot overlook killings of your own people every now and then over the hands of these ****.... So yes keep growing and keep checking Pakistan and for that matter China....

Agree to the bold part 100%. And I dont think its being ignored.. Right now the Pakistani policy is backfiring like no body's business.. So nothing much for GOI to do except widen the gap...
 
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Once again the big baby is at it lolz wow when will the this dumb a$$ crying stop... umm never right so keep crying hahaha.
 
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Our main priority is to ensure our conventional superiority over Pakistan and keep widening the gap

first improve your flight safety and maintenance record for those ailing Migs!


Thats what i am countering...We are not supporting any cause as far as tibet is concerned(forget about providing logistics - weapons etc) to wage a war agaisnt China

Tibet is Chinese territory. It is an internal matter. india is providing sanctuary to dalai lama, whom Mainland China views as a threat to national security.

india providing arms would be out of the question; China would have bombed india to oblivion if things got to that level; 1962 would look like picnic.


unlike Pakistan role viz-a-viz Kashmir...

a lot of the fighting is pure Kashmiri phenomenon. You give Pakistan too much credit for the anti-indian Kashmiri movement.


However IMO you cannot overlook killings of your own people every now and then over the hands of these pigs.... So yes keep growing and keep checking Pakistan and for that matter China....

good luck with that. Worry about INTERNAL security first. Naxals (indians, right?) are killing a lot of their own people.

I think indians have killed more indians than non-indians. Proof of that is Gujrat, Bluestar and Orissa genocides (all of which were connected to political parties and figureheads)
 
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when babies get f-16 for ttp ,elders have to be worried abt it,coz elders understands and think well.

Acutally ... you lost me too :cheesy: india is the big baby crying to the world :cry: the only elder in this pic is the US not india keep crying no one cares we just like to point it lolz cuz its just patheic :lol:
 
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first improve your flight safety and maintenance record for those ailing Migs!

Is this off topic?? I guess so...anyways if you think India is not conventionally superior to you than good luck with that....

Tibet is Chinese territory. It is an internal matter. india is providing sanctuary to dalai lama, whom Mainland China views as a threat to national security.
Providing santuary to Dalai Lama is different from Supporting Tibet cause...India has recognized TIBET as integral part fo China...Also don't forget he is a spritual Guru...But anyways why would you like to understand an India POV....

india providing arms would be out of the question; China would have bombed india to oblivion if things got to that level; 1962 would look like picnic.
Please come down from this high horse ...and lets have some decent conversation leaving the fan boy attitude...Anyways its off topic so don't want to get in there...However the poing i was trying to make with Karan was precisely that any such help from India wouldn't have been taken lightly by Chinese.....

a lot of the fighting is pure Kashmiri phenomenon. You give Pakistan too much credit for the anti-indian Kashmiri movement.
Sorry for that....But for some reason majority of the terrorists that are being killed in valley are not from Kashmir....

good luck with that. Worry about INTERNAL security first. Naxals (indians, right?) are killing a lot of their own people
What's your point??? Because Naxals are a problem does that mean we should stop worrying about other problems??? Is this an advice from a sane person????

I think indians have killed more indians than non-indians. Proof of that is Gujrat, Bluestar and Orissa genocides (all of which were connected to political parties and figureheads)
You seems to be suffering from dellusions...every country has their internal problems and i do not want to troll by giving you few examples from your side....However these are our problems and we will fix them our way...That does not mean foreign forces sponsored problems can be ignored....


P.S : I guess from a healthy conversation we have moved to mud sludging so i will refrain from answering in case your reply is off topic like this one...However i do feel there will be an urge to reply so please feel free to do that but don't find it rude if i do not reply back....
 
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Is this off topic?? I guess so...anyways if you think India is not conventionally superior to you than good luck with that....

I'm not saying Pakistan has the means (quantitative, logistic, etc.) to wage a full scale war on india.

Pakistan does, however, have the ability to defend its own territory from any possible indian aggression. Once you enter Pakistan, or try to at least --- you will have no superiority over our forces.

History has already demonstrated that. Think what happened to you in Chawinda.

Providing santuary to Dalai Lama is different from Supporting Tibet cause...India has recognized TIBET as integral part fo China...Also don't forget he is a spritual Guru...But anyways why would you like to understand an India POV....

I'm well aware of indian POV. Dalai lama is a fraud; but enough people look up to him so i'll just move on.

Sorry for that....But for some reason majority of the terrorists that are being killed in valley are not from Kashmir....

keep telling yourselves that if it makes you feel better :lol:

What's your point??? Because Naxals are a problem does that mean we should stop worrying about other problems??? Is this an advice from a sane person????

you indian need to learn to get your priorities right

You seems to be suffering from dellusions...every country has their internal problems and i do not want to troll by giving you few examples from your side....

it is you who seems delusional. I myself will happily give examples from my side. You indian seem to think that criticism or bringing up examples of internal problems is analagous to ''trolling'' ..... that is one major difference between Pakistanis and the standard indian.

You've been on this forum long enough to know that we are critical about a lot of things in our country, we recognize there are a lot of problems. We hope for quick and sustainable solution to these problems.

you indians lie to yourselves and say everything is fine; then just last week lightly armed naxalites are able to kill over 70 indian policemen

(and take their weapons, AND escape).


However these are our problems and we will fix them our way...That does not mean foreign forces sponsored problems can be ignored....

india is also sponsoring problems in Pakistan. But lets not even go there because your indian-conditioned response will be to act ignorant about it


However i do feel there will be an urge to reply so please feel free to do that but don't find it rude if i do not reply back....

it's the internet for God's sakes.

I couldn't care less what you do.
 
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Though i promised i will not reply however some things needs to be clarified here....

I'm not saying Pakistan has the means (quantitative, logistic, etc.) to wage a full scale war on india.

Pakistan does, however, have the ability to defend its own territory from any possible indian aggression. Once you enter Pakistan, or try to at least --- you will have no superiority over our forces.

History has already demonstrated that. Think what happened to you in Chawinda.

If that's what you mean i am all for it...You guys are good in defence and i have no problems accepting that...Though for some reason i got a different feeling..anyways thanks for clarification....

I'm well aware of indian POV. Dalai lama is a fraud; but enough people look up to him so i'll just move on.
Well that's not how many people in the world look at him...As far as an average Indian is concerned he is nothing but a spiritual leader...


keep telling yourselves that if it makes you feel better :lol:
Truth won't change because you don't agree...Anyways this is one issue which is fruitless to discuss...so let's move on....


you indian need to learn to get your priorities right
That's where you are grossly wrong..... if you think India is not working on Moists issue then i will say your knowledge is limited in this area...And talking about priorities the whole world see's TTP as bigger issue for Pakistan than India however seems like you differ with those views...With all due respect Why to lecture when you yourself are party to same thing??? Any problem that is foreign sponsored will pinch far more than a home grown problem...Not sure why is this so difficult to understand....

it is you who seems delusional. I myself will happily give examples from my side. You indian seem to think that criticism or bringing up examples of internal problems is analagous to ''trolling'' ..... that is one major difference between Pakistanis and the standard indian.
Seems like you have done some PHD on a standard Indian....By the way just FYI - Indians are very critical of GOI...However a typical pakistan mind find it hard to differentiate between what i mean by trolling in this context...Let me repeat what is said...

"every country has their internal problems and i do not want to troll by giving you few examples from your side.... "

Let me explain a bit more....Talking about Internal problems that pakistan is facing by me would be equivalent to trolling because this is not the topic of discussion...


You've been on this forum long enough to know that we are critical about a lot of things in our country, we recognize there are a lot of problems. We hope for quick and sustainable solution to these problems.

you indians lie to yourselves and say everything is fine; then just last week lightly armed naxalites are able to kill over 70 indian policemen

(and take their weapons, AND escape).

See again you are talking off topics and being very judgemental without completely understanding the problem... There is a thread on this forum which can give you some details about How critical Indians are about this issue and problem and dilemna GOI is facing to solve it

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/53321-73-killed-maoists-ambush-crpf-team.html

india is also sponsoring problems in Pakistan. But lets not even go there because your indian-conditioned response will be to act ignorant about it
Yes lets not go there because it's an endless discussion...All our Pakistani friends want us to believe in this just on Good Will....Also is a dangerous word...It implies you accept that Pakistan did/is sponsor(ing) terrorism in Kashmir...Anyways as said lets not go there...

it's the internet for God's sakes. I couldn't care less what you do.
Yes it is internet however etiquette says it is rude to stop replying to a person who has spent some time in replying to your post...It is good to know that such things don't bother you but i wanted to double check....
 
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