Anti-submarine copters inducted in Pak Navy

[hj786]

Strangely the couple of military officers that i have talked to have had strict reservation of Chinese equipment being so superior as we tend to believe in defence.pk. Seriously we need to think about our defence with open mind rather carry out with this useless blind patriotism for china that we have developed. They all told me that Pakistan desires to have access to top of the line Chinese equipment but over and over again we get rejected and have to take export products and also because thats only what we can afford other wise with few more money in pocket we would defiantly prefer tested and proven western technology which mind is is preferred by almost every pakistani military officers.

Nothing strange about it. Chinese posters also say that their country never exports its best stuff, only export models, of course some Pakistani posters don't like to hear that. For example, SD-10 is the export model of PL-12. At the end of the day, Pakistan wouldn't export the best version of Al-Khalid's battlefield management system either.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Again coming back to the discussion gone adrift---there is a mis-conception what china gives us and what we take---.

It is not china who puts the restrictions on what pakistan can get---it is pakistan who does that inadvertantly---first of all---most of the newly developed chinese systems are being integrated while they are still in the process of being developed---because china has a major shortfall of weapons to protect its borders on three sides---once the factory certifies an equipment---it is sent to the forces---where it gets field certified as well while in use---like all of their jet engines---pakistan really really doesnot want un-proven systems.

The parameters and requirements of the pak army are not the same and neither are they similiar to those of chinese army---so the question of the best system is not available to pak is not applicable---.

Pakistan picks and choses what china has to offer and china delivers it---there is no other nation in the world which has ties like those of china and pakistan---.

PAF ordered the F7PG's---the planes were ready but pak did not have the money to pay for them----they were more advanced than the F7's in chinese inventory---they asked china to hold them till they were needed or when pak had money---pak navy had a couple of frigates on order from the chinese navy---in the end we didnot have the money to take delivery---so we asked the chinse to integrate them into their navy----they did that----the ships built for pak navy with pak navy's specs china put it into service into their own navy---and then they were ready again to take up the order of the F 22's from us.

What other country would do for another nation---USA for israel---hardly---russia for india---give me more money---give me more money---.

J 10 is another example---when pak approached china about this plane---this aircraft was the apple of their eyes---but still they agreed to sell the plane to us after due negotiations---.

The biggest problem that china has---as I stated earlier is to fill its own requirement---what china does for us is just like what a parent does for its child---it takes the morsel of food out of its mouth and shares it to pakistan when needed.

They know the quality of their product---we know the quality of their product---we accepted their quality to meet our standards---once we did that---that standard became the MINIMUM acceptable for the millitary.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Hi,

Again coming back to the discussion gone adrift---there is a mis-conception what china gives us and what we take---.

It is not china who puts the restrictions on what pakistan can get---it is pakistan who does that inadvertantly---

Sir kindly asking for the source of your claim.. no intention to fight---- no off topic argument--or personal attacks..

My source for my opposite claim of yours are...

- Pak army Air defence officer (major) who i meet in my cousin's wedding who is also a officer in PAK army. Basically i was arguing like a blind chinese patriot and kept on saying that its China who provides us our requirements and the best equipment. He gave me big NO as a answer.

- PAF squadron leader whom i meet in Resalpur. Basically he told me PAF still prefers western systems over chinese because it is simply better. I was also quite disharted to hear from him that JF-17 is not such a sophisticated plane yet as we tend to believe in forums and he personally preferred F-16s (new once) however he did make it clear that only with the integration of western systems in JF-17 will it be capable platform to confront IAF Mig-29 MK2 MKI.

- My brother-in-law (major) in pak army. He recently gave me alot of eye opening reality however not exactly his own words but the words of PAF officers during PAF&PA exercise.

-Our birds are also tracked by the chinese
-We dont get what we want even with money in our pocket and resort to inducting chinese export products not primarily ment to be used by china itself.
-Their systems are not par with western yet.
-they all (pilots) still prefer F-16s (new ones) over given choice.

So we need to stop saying beggars cant get one of the best equipments as PAF is already getting from west, Type-214 and Erieye are prime example.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Pakistan wouldn't export the best version of Al-Khalid's battlefield management system either.

Then that means no export order for al-khalid and customers would run away when they see a sub standard version of the standard system. Then T-80 T-90 would win all the orders... so i dough pak wont sell their battle management system.

 

[Xeric]

Pakistan Navy inducts Z-9EC Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) helicopters - September 30, 2009


Pakistan Navy inducts Harbin Z-9EC Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) helicopters from China. The induction ceremony was held at Naval Aviation Base. Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Noman Bashir was the chief guest on the occasion. This is the first batch of the series of six helicopters to be procured as per the contract signed with China National Aero Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC).

Z-9EC helicopters have been built according to the specific requirements of Pakistan Navy and are capable to detect and destroy submarines. The aircraft is configured to carry torpedoes and is fitted with state of the art Pulse Compression Radar, Low Frequency Dipping Sonar, Radar Warning Receiver and Doppler Navigation System. Naval Chief said that these days the Indian Ocean is experiencing intense activity and around 100 ships from different countries are operating at all times for safeguarding their interests.

These extraordinary developments are an indicator of the importance of the trade routes in these waters. Pakistan Navy is also conducting continuous deployment of ships and aircraft to guarantee guarding our maritime interests. Commenting on the regional stability, he denied being part of any arms race but expressed resolve to maintain quality in naval platforms and enhancement of capabilities in consonance with the developments in the region. He also expressed his full confidence in Chinese technology and termed it compatible to Western.

Pak-China relationship is time-tested and would further be strengthened with such defence collaborations like F-22 P frigates and Z-9EC helicopters projects, he added. Earlier in his welcome address, Commander Pakistan Fleet Rear Admiral Asif Sandila highlighted salient features of Z-9EC project. He apprised that apart from China, Pakistan is the first country that would operating these helicopters in Anti Submarine Warfare role. Later, the helicopter made fly and staged demonstration of its characteristics and maneuverability. The ceremony was attended by the Chinese Ambassador to Pakistan Luo Zhao Hui, representatives of M/s CATIC and a large number of senior naval officers and Aviators of Pakistan Navy.

Courtesy: salmansignals YouTube - salmansignals's Channel

 

[MastanKhan]

Growler,

Thanks for your post---we are saying the same thing---we all know that chinese equipment is not the best equipment as compared to the the western world---it is agreed upon---and neither is JF 17 the plane that PAF wants to make it to be---it may become a threat once it is fully integrated with western equipment etc etc---but not against the SU 30's---on a regular basis---maybe once in a while.

But---technically---once we have accepted this equipment---on engineering standards---this becomes our minimum threshold of acceptance and operational standards----which mean---we qualify this equipment to fight a war with---good or bad as it may seem to sound. I would rather have this equipment than nothing else.

Secondly---in our relationship with the u s of a---we have to wait for the 'DAY AFTER TOMORROW' syndrome---which means time for sanctions acoming---no doubt about the ability of the F 16 blk 52---it is able and capable, but due to our past experiences----we should have moved away from the americans and gone with the mirage 2000-9 in 2002 and the rafaels---and rejected the F 16 blk 52 altogether.

Our relationship with the u s has soured again---those of us who saw the sanctions of the 70's and 90's understand the consequences as well and the feeling of deja vu is being felt all over again---the oncoming of the pending disaster---.

We have gone through three periods of sanctions by the americans---one worse than the others---in the last scenario---our planes the F 16 had only maybe 3---4 days of fighting ability left in them in the late 90's.

So---even though PAF has this loving relationship with the F 16's----they should have have had the courage to walk away from it after 9/11---paf's first priority was to fill in the ranks---that would have resulted in purchasing the mirage 2000-9 and extremely suprerior aircraft on a fast track---then they would have taken up the rafaels for the long term---paf didnot go for the M2k9's because they decided that the frame was at the end of it upgrade life---how stupid the PAF heirachy is---it is open for everyone to see---here we are worried about what would happen after 15 years of flight operations to this plane---but we are not worried about what would happen to paskistan tomorrow---but due to the cob-webs---the PAF couldnot see what was coming, between india and pakistan---war---aggression---troops on both sides of the boundary line---2002---2005---mumbai attacks.

Major weapons systems also make a political statement---like the SU 30---Jf 17 just whimpers along---regardless of what it may get---won't change the air threat from india----it won't change the aggressive stance of india----a 50 rafaels plus and 50 M2k--9's would have made india think many a times what they ought to do---. But with 4 sqdrns of rafaels and around 8 sqdrns of M2k--9's, india would never have made any threat postures towards pakistan---they would have never sent 30 plus SU 30 to an air base within 5--10 minutes of striking distance from pakistan.

The failure to acquire the right french platform and had it integrated within 2 years from 2002 onwards---the PAF has done an immense damage to the strength positioning of pakistan---as a matter of fact---PAF has been criminally negligent in procuring the right platform at the right time---. All this Jf 17 and FC 20 is a wishy washy stuff----we are going to be 10 years behind on the clock----maybe 15 years behind----the FC 20 is not going to be able to compete with the mirage 2k-9 till at least year 2015---. We could have had those birds by 2005---new or otherwise----.

Ten years of extra experience---when in 2015---we would just learn to crawl on the FC 20---we would have been flying rings through the needle head with our m2k9's and rafels. It is a travesty.

Time is of importance---time is of significance but only for those who understand the consequence.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

^^

I think US plays a vital role in any Arms DEAL . The french would have never sold us Rafaels or Miraage 2000 without the will of their unloving uncle . Plus How come someone can say no to a US spocered Deal and gets away with it . DIDnt they forced the Isarelis to scrap their plans for selling their Combat Aircrafts to India . More or less US has a history of sabotaging ARMS deals .

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

U S had not even taken off the restrictions of selling the F 16's to us in 2002---it became available I believe in 2005----but regardless---u s would not have interfered with paf, if it was going for the mirage 2k9's or the rafaels---they already knew what our relationship had been---it was us pakistanis who fell on our knees to get the Blk 52's---sold our souls one more time---.

French had been desperately wanting us to buy their equipment since 2002---u s had the least of interest in 2002 to sell us the blk 52---as a matter of fact, it would have taken the pressure off the u s of a if paf would have decided to go with the french. The americans need not worry in the future about any relationship with pakistan if sanctions were coming---it would have been the biggest relief for the americans----we scr-ewed them up one more time---we again went and bought the blk 52's so that we could be sanctioned again---

Don't we love pain----

 

[MZUBAIR]

Sir kindly asking for the source of your claim.. no intention to fight---- no off topic argument--or personal attacks..

My source for my opposite claim of yours are...

- Pak army Air defence officer (major) who i meet in my cousin's wedding who is also a officer in PAK army. Basically i was arguing like a blind chinese patriot and kept on saying that its China who provides us our requirements and the best equipment. He gave me big NO as a answer.

- PAF squadron leader whom i meet in Resalpur. Basically he told me PAF still prefers western systems over chinese because it is simply better. I was also quite disharted to hear from him that JF-17 is not such a sophisticated plane yet as we tend to believe in forums and he personally preferred F-16s (new once) however he did make it clear that only with the integration of western systems in JF-17 will it be capable platform to confront IAF Mig-29 MK2 MKI.

- My brother-in-law (major) in pak army. He recently gave me alot of eye opening reality however not exactly his own words but the words of PAF officers during PAF&PA exercise. v7_lL0-jUyg[/media] - PAF F-7PG ground support "army coordination"
-Our birds are also tracked by the chinese
-We dont get what we want even with money in our pocket and resort to inducting chinese export products not primarily ment to be used by china itself.
-Their systems are not par with western yet.
-they all (pilots) still prefer F-16s (new ones) over given choice.

So we need to stop saying beggars cant get one of the best equipments as PAF is already getting from west, Type-214 and Erieye are prime example.

I agree the sitituation is alarming.

The only thing we have nuclear weapons, which is big pain for US, UK, Isreal n ofcourse India.

Lets hope...our leaders n senior Miltary officers come up with solid plan.


I personally think that we have much weaker Airforce as well as Navy then Indian Airforce and Navy.

If war emposed we would have no choice, just we will depend upon Nuclear weapons.

 

[MZUBAIR]

Hi,

U S had not even taken off the restrictions of selling the F 16's to us in 2002---it became available I believe in 2005----but regardless---u s would not have interfered with paf, if it was going for the mirage 2k9's or the rafaels---they already knew what our relationship had been---it was us pakistanis who fell on our knees to get the Blk 52's---sold our souls one more time---.

French had been desperately wanting us to buy their equipment since 2002---u s had the least of interest in 2002 to sell us the blk 52---as a matter of fact, it would have taken the pressure off the u s of a if paf would have decided to go with the french. The americans need not worry in the future about any relationship with pakistan if sanctions were coming---it would have been the biggest relief for the americans----we scr-ewed them up one more time---we again went and bought the blk 52's so that we could be sanctioned again---

Don't we love pain----

Only coz our senior miltary officers and our politicians want to kiss US feet.

18 + 26 = F-16
36 = J-10B
Obselete JF-17 technology is not enough to counter India.

We are dancing on a effort (JF-17) that the world has designed 2 decades before.

We are dancing on 2 Z9, where India has dozens of Eurocopters.

Our President is richest man of the country and he and his family is totally living on wt we are paying through texes......Zardari has no singel asset in Pakistan.

If war empose who will suffer, people like u n me.....Zardari & other men in Gov will fly to abroad.

Do they face electricity problem...No.
Do they face financial problem....No..
Do they face food problem...No
Do they face security Problem ..No (Dozens of men, miltary men and other heavy vechicles are for their safety....even bullit proof cars have been purchased few months ago).

Every problem is for comon person and will remain untill we will getrid with these political parties.

Now they have a got new source to fill their pockets so called Foreign Aid and we are sleeping

__________________________________________________________

Food for Gov and bones for nation

 

[MZUBAIR]

See the face of man........1.5 years ago



and see his latest pics

How much he has done for his country?

Nothing !!!!!!!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Secondly---
.

Putting all eggs in one basket "France" would have been a very risky business. 200+ Mirage-III/IV 50 Rafale 50 MK2-9 is already almost 70% of our fleet and if US was to desire a sanction of PAF then they would do it through France. Pakistan is not going to conduct a nuclear test or attack any country in near future so i highly dough what ever we buy today under normal political scenario we are going to receive what we pay for. PAF can sacrifice anything but F-16s and thats the bitter reality for you sir.
here is another quote from a sqdron leader. "F-16s are still the best, we can fly around india perform all duties bomb their bases and come back". I was really disharted to hear this from him because i wanted to hear the samething with the case of JF-17s. but like i said before, it still needs time to mature and has good potential to be a good front line fighter.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

It is a misnomer that france will sanction pak due to the U S---there is seemingly a misconcept about sanctions----the u s congress can only pass sanctions on pakistan on u s made products---that is all---france doesnot take dictat from the u s to whom to sanction----

It has become a moot discussion---whereas you have to ask everybody else but the wall---your uncles and a major here a sqdrn ldr there, a flt lt at other time---and that is where this analysis is seemingly based upon----I very much doubt that those people are qualified or well informed to delve into the intricacies of the issue.

They maybe great soldiers and lay down their lives for the nation without blinking their eyes---but other than that, they are just soldiers.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

It has become a moot discussion---whereas you have to ask everybody else but the wall---your uncles and a major here a sqdrn ldr there, a flt lt at other time---and that is where this analysis is seemingly based upon----

So A more reliable more accurate analysis would be by a civilian living over seas not officially related to military knows better then real soldiers who have real experience know their job well know their requirements know the reality and on top of all have real hands experience with this topic.
amazing.

I very much doubt that those people are qualified or well informed to delve into the intricacies of the issue.

I think you take your job of TT in this forum too seriously

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

france doesnot take dictat from the u s to whom to sanction

I seriously dough this . I percieve that US has some kind of Authority over International ARMS DEALS . The US does have the capability and the influence to force the french to send their troops to Iraq & Afghanistan . Whats the guarantee the US would not excersize the same influence in sabotaging the arms deal with the French . The chances are more likely .
Somewhere there is an understanding between the US and its European allies once they deal with the third world countries and especially the Muslim Countries .